Opinions are like booty's.....

[champscorner]

but I'd still like to hear yours.....

Hello all! I'm hoping to get some opinions on a few things from the kings of
audio. I'll jump right into it. My current plan:

I have ~ $3500 dollar budget. Within the next 2 weeks I want to have a START of a solid system ordered and on it's way to my home. What I have in mind is KEF Q900 fronts(open box from A4L @ $1350pr), Denon 4311(refurbished from A4L w/3yr warranty @ $1285).After a ton of reading, I'm pretty set on the KEF and Denon but am open to opinions why i shouldn't go this route. To go with these I would like to get the KEF Q600(open box from A4L @ $480) OR svs pb12-nsd($769). Keep in mind that this is just the start. I plan on adding an additional sub, all matching KEF surrounds, and outdoor speakers for zones 2/3 in mid summer of next year. My questions/concerns are:

How many here have bought both open box and refurbished receivers/speakers through a4l and how was the experience?

Should I pass on a4l and order the fronts and receiver new(would cost an additional $750 to do this)?

As I'm on the budget should I go with the 3.0 or 2.1 to start(60/40 tunes to movies)?

Any other sites where I may find better deals than these(do anymore deals happen before x-mas)?

Of course If there are any opinions on why not to go with this setup I would like to hear it. I also thought about holding out to see what's up with the svs ultra speakers compared to the KEF but who knows when they're actually getting released. Seems like I've waited forever to get to this point already Thanks All!

 

[jcl]

I remember reading that people had been able to get the Denon 4311 new from Electronics Expo for ~$1300 by calling them. If you're worried about a refurb it's worth a shot.

I think the SVS Ultras towers were going to be around 2k a pair, that's quite a bit more than your open box Kefs. In that price range the Salk SongTowers and Ascend Sierra Towers may also be worth considering.

What size is your room? You want to make sure you alot enough of your budget for sub(s).

 

[agarwalro]

Go 2.0 for now with the Denon 3312 open box on Amazon for $575. This leaves enough to consider the Kef R series speakers. Look for some on Audiogon.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Go 2.0 for now with the Denon 3312 open box on Amazon for $575.

Yeah, I'm with you on the 3312 open box from Amazon for $576.

Amazon.com: Buying Choices: Denon AVR3312CI Integrated Network A/V Surround Receiver

These are not refurbished, so you get the 3 yr warranty frm Denon. I don't like refurbished because of personal bad luck.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As for speakers, the KEF R series would be "better".

Or the Revel Concerta.

But if you've auditioned the Q900 and liked it, then get them. Personally I think the Q900 will sound great.

 

[agarwalro]

As for speakers, the KEF R series would be "better".

I never said they'd be better . But, I figured the OP drooled over them before assigning a huge chunk of funds to the 4311 plus Veblen Effect .

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I never said they'd be better . But, I figured the OP drooled over them before assigning a huge chunk of funds to the 4311 plus Veblen Effect .

I think most people will say the Rs are better than the Qs. Maybe, but I don't know by how much? 5%? 10%?

Ever since John Atkinson took the Q900 into his back yard and measured it, people have been saying the Q900 is "flawed".

 

[champscorner]

I remember reading that people had been able to get the Denon 4311 new from Electronics Expo for ~$1300 by calling them. If you're worried about a refurb it's worth a shot.

I think the SVS Ultras towers were going to be around 2k a pair, that's quite a bit more than your open box Kefs. In that price range the Salk SongTowers and Ascend Sierra Towers may also be worth considering.

What size is your room? You want to make sure you alot enough of your budget for sub(s).

Thanks for your response jcl. I am nervous about ordering anything refurb, especially in these price ranges, so I will def give EE a call and see if they will meet that price. The reason I mentioned the SVS Towers is because if I would buy the KEF's new the best price I found was ~ $1800 shipped. With the the price difference of $200 and all the previews I've read on the ultra towers I thought maybe waiting for a "real world" review on them may be worth it. Keep in mind I haven't auditioned any of the speakers you mention but have done a lot of reading on multiple speakers(I'm a newb, but educating myself the best i can). The reason I was leaning toward the KEF Q over the SongTowers and Sierra(or any other in my price range)was because of the great sound balance I've read about between music to movies. As far as room size it's not ideal.....it's an L shaped, 1 room opened up to another

 

[champscorner]

Go 2.0 for now with the Denon 3312 open box on Amazon for $575. This leaves enough to consider the Kef R series speakers. Look for some on Audiogon.

I did look at the 3312 and yammy rx-a2020 and decided I def want to go denon due to audessy. The reason I was going the 4311 route... I want to eventually have at least 5.2 in ht room and want to add 2 outdoor zones next summer(so,3 zones). Also read the xt32 was a big improvement over the original and wanted airplay. I f i remember right these were the reasons I was going 4311 over 3312. If there's a way for me to get these features with the 3312 that's significantly cheaper than the 4311 please let me know. I will check it out and maybe eliminate the Veblen Effect on the receiver

Yeah, I'm with you on the 3312 open box from Amazon for $576.

Amazon.com: Buying Choices: Denon AVR3312CI Integrated Network A/V Surround Receiver

These are not refurbished, so you get the 3 yr warranty frm Denon. I don't like refurbished because of personal bad luck.

Thanks, that's a Great deal on the 3312 w/warranty!!! If it could do the 3 things i listed above i would be all over it!

As for speakers, the KEF R series would be "better".

Or the Revel Concerta.

But if you've auditioned the Q900 and liked it, then get them. Personally I think the Q900 will sound great.

I never said they'd be better . But, I figured the OP drooled over them before assigning a huge chunk of funds to the 4311 plus Veblen Effect .

I think most people will say the Rs are better than the Qs. Maybe, but I don't know by how much? 5%? 10%?

Ever since John Atkinson took the Q900 into his back yard and measured it, people have been saying the Q900 is "flawed".

Ok, now you guys are getting me off track Unfortunately, I haven't auditioned the Q900 because I have no access to them. I have read a ton, for what that's worth, and decided on them anyway due to reading of how balanced they are from music to movies and even music genre to genre(as i love it all). So please forgive my newness and inform my why the R series would be better than the Q for the price difference. I have been all over the net and have yet to find a bad review on the Q but if you have some info I would love to read it. I see that the R is def smaller than the Q but has a better driver(once again, i'm new so will be reading up on this more). I did search for the John Atkinson article you mentioned but didn't find anything negative, of the articles I've read. Have you guys read much on the new SVS ultra Tower?? If so what are your opinions on it? Will it ever be released and worth waiting on? With your guy's knowledge(on paper), does it look like the utra towers would be comparable to the KEF Q/R as far as balance? Thanks for taking the time guys

 

[jcl]

The 3312 has Audyssey MultiEQ XT. The 4311 has XT32 & Sub EQ HT which I believe would only be beneficial if you have 2 subs.

The 3312ci has 2 extra zones, you'll have to see if it has the connections you're looking for though.

 

[shadyJ]

For the kind of coin you are spending on speakers and receiver, I would say upgrade the sub to the SVS Plus series. The NSD line seem a bit weak to only have one, though it might be ok if you don't listen at high volumes.

 

[JerryLove]

I'm going to agree with the group that suggest a less expensive receiver. I think that the best sound will be had by shifting budget from the receiver to the speakers.

If you are going by your ears, then go by your ears. If you are going by what you've read: add my enthusiastic support for Salk (the SongTowers can be had new for $2k and used for $1.5k).

 

[GranteedEV]

Unfortunately, I haven't auditioned the Q900 because I have no access to them. I have read a ton, for what that's worth, and decided on them anyway due to reading of how balanced they are from music to movies and even music genre to genre(as i love it all). So please forgive my newness and inform my why the R series would be better than the Q for the price difference. I have been all over the net and have yet to find a bad review on the Q but if you have some info I would love to read it. I see that the R is def smaller than the Q but has a better driver(once again, i'm new so will be reading up on this more).

The biggest issue i see is that the Q900 might be a bit strident in the treble. I haven't heard it personally so I can't say, but I'm not a fan of the way it measures, although it has all the basis for a really nice speaker if it got a crossover mod.

A nice speaker around that price point is the Soundfield Audio M1, by the way.

 

[champscorner]

The 3312 has Audyssey MultiEQ XT. The 4311 has XT32 & Sub EQ HT which I believe would only be beneficial if you have 2 subs

The 3312ci has 2 extra zones, you'll have to see if it has the connections you're looking for though.

jcl, thanks again for your help. So the 3312 does feed 3 zones total? When I look at it I see 7.2, so 5.2 for my HT room and an additional 2 speakers for a 2nd zone. Again I could Be wrong on that but that's what I see when i read the specs. Maybe someone on here with the 3312 could inform me of how many zones the 3312 can drive and how they work(again my goal is to have 5.2 for HT, 2 speakers front porch, 2 speakers back deck. Do you happen to know what the difference between MultiEQ XT and XT32 are? I've read that XT32 is more precise because it has 32 filters, is it really that big of an upgrade over just XT for the extra $? I will eventually have 2 subs so the Sub EQ HT would probably be beneficial but is it worth that big of a price jump?

For the kind of coin you are spending on speakers and receiver, I would say upgrade the sub to the SVS Plus series. The NSD line seem a bit weak to only have one, though it might be ok if you don't listen at high volumes.

I do plan on getting a 2nd sub next summer. So are you saying you recommend the larger svs plus over 2 nsd 12?

I'm going to agree with the group that suggest a less expensive receiver. I think that the best sound will be had by shifting budget from the receiver to the speakers.

If you are going by your ears, then go by your ears. If you are going by what you've read: add my enthusiastic support for Salk (the SongTowers can be had new for $2k and used for $1.5k).

Thanks JLove, but while I might be leaning towards a cheaper receiver, how are the SongTowers for HT? Again, I have no proof but have read that the SongTowers, while a great speaker for music, don't do as well for HT. I'm really looking for great sounding, balanced speaker as I'm 60/40 music/movies If you own them maybe you can set me straight

The biggest issue i see is that the Q900 might be a bit strident in the treble. I haven't heard it personally so I can't say, but I'm not a fan of the way it measures, although it has all the basis for a really nice speaker if it got a crossover mod.

A nice speaker around that price point is the Soundfield Audio M1, by the way.

Thanks for the response and the speaker recommendation, I'm going to check into those as well. Is that a speaker that can be auditioned or is it direct ship? Interesting that you say that about the Q900 because everything I've seen has pointed to them being a warm and balanced speaker.

I know you guys probably get a lot of the same questions but I really do appreciate you taking the time to answer. There's only so much I can read before I would like to have 1st hand opinions on how these things sound/operate before I make such a big purchase. I'm just trying to be as thorough as I can to make sure I get the best sound and receiver options that I want for the $$$

 

[champscorner]

Also wanted to ask if anyone has first hand knowledge on ordering open box or refurbished receivers/speakers from A4L? Good, bad, indifferent?

 

[GranteedEV]

Interesting that you say that about the Q900 because everything I've seen has pointed to them being a warm and balanced speaker.

I don't doubt they're balanced. But the highs might "linger" a bit.

 

[jcl]

jcl, thanks again for your help. So the 3312 does feed 3 zones total? When I look at it I see 7.2, so 5.2 for my HT room and an additional 2 speakers for a 2nd zone. Again I could Be wrong on that but that's what I see when i read the specs. Maybe someone on here with the 3312 could inform me of how many zones the 3312 can drive and how they work(again my goal is to have 5.2 for HT, 2 speakers front porch, 2 speakers back deck. Do you happen to know what the difference between MultiEQ XT and XT32 are? I've read that XT32 is more precise because it has 32 filters, is it really that big of an upgrade over just XT for the extra $? I will eventually have 2 subs so the Sub EQ HT would probably be beneficial but is it worth that big of a price jump?

No, I think you are right. The 3312 has 2 extra zones, but only one can be powered by the surround back channels. The other zone would be preamp outs and would require separate amplification.

As to XT vs XT32 and Sub EQ that's tough to say. I think it's a matter of personal preference, speakers, and your room. I would lean towards putting the extra money towards better speakers or a second sub. However, you're already looking at some nice speakers and talking about getting a 2nd sub....

 

[agarwalro]

From a different forum, the Kef rep explains the difference between R and Q:

Some of the big difference are the cabinet material, the Uni-Q and driver configurations. The Qs are designed with a an active Uni-Q on top, a passive radiator, active LF and another passive radiator in a closed box. The R is designed with a Active LF, Uni-Q and then another active LF with multiple rear ports (I'm comparing the Q900 and the R900). The Uni-Q comes very close to the Blade Uni-Q except is it a smaller Uni-Q.

The Q900 are available on Accessories4Less (open box, cosmetic blemish) for $675 shipped and only R series in budget are the R500, on Audiogon for $2400.

The R500 will have more detail/finesse while the Q900 will play much louder. So, the added detail of the R will be lost if you have to push them into higher levels of distortion. Fwiw, in a properly setup room and if played within spec, a good recording should sound better with the R. But, you already know that .

 

[agarwalro]

I don't doubt they're balanced. But the highs might "linger" a bit.

At some point ones own ear become the limiting device. Like scotch and a good cigar or caviar, no point spending big money if one can't appreciate the layers of flavor and finesse. In the latter case its just booze and a smoke or fish eggs... LOL!

To the OP, get the Q's, take the SO for a getaway or bank the cash. When you feel ready for a change, the hunt is on again .

 

[GranteedEV]

At some point ones own ear become the limiting device. Like scotch and a good cigar or caviar, no point spending big money if one can't appreciate the layers of flavor and finesse.

Disagree in this case. The ringing of a metal cone near ~4khz could easily cause listening fatigue. You might not conciously recognize it, but that doesn't mean it can't hurt the experience.