Online Retailers

[rmongiovi]

If you buy from an "authorized" dealer you pay more and you get a warranty.

If you buy from an "unauthorized" dealer, you pay less and you don't get a warranty.

The evident truth is that the manufacturer in fact does not provide a warranty on their product.
Rather, they sell you one if you choose to buy it.

All the rest is just spin.

 

[Takeereasy]

Well after all my defending Manufacturer's warranty practices maybe I should point out that I went with a Marantz receiver that I purchased from the States. The reason that I went that way was because the price was soooooo much better than we have to pay up north of the border and because I was assured by Marantz that they would honour the Warranty due to their universal warranty and that I had a US address at the time I purchased this product. That was when Lenbrook distributed Marantz. Now that Denon does I've been told that I'll have to fight to get the warranty honoured if anything ever goes wrong. So far so good, but knock on wood.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Actually, no, it's not. It's not at all.

It's their right to sell their product to whomever they wish, and their right not to sell their product to whomever they wish. However, once someone has purchased the product, it is then *his* right to sell it to whomever he wishes.

Once I buy a Denon receiver, no matter where I bought it from, it is absolutely my right to resell it as I see fit. Denon no longer has any say in what I do with the piece of equipment.

Saying anything to the contrary is quite foolhardy and is a direct affront on the rights and best interests of the consumer.

Personally, I think that any company who will refuse to warrant a brand-new-in-box product of their manufacturing clearly does not have the best interests of their consumer in mind. I won't refuse to buy from them just out of spite, but I will go ahead and buy the product for the cheapest price I can find and tell them that they can shove their warranty up their *** since I can't have it.

You basically just restated what I stated in the sense that Denon can sell or not sell (IE police and monitor) to whomever they wish. Of course I was not meaning that they have the right to prohibit you from selling something on e-bay or to your neighbor (but you wouldn't be considered an authorized dealer then, would you?). So, yes, you are correct when stating that that person can turn around and resell it to whoever they want. Where you are wrong is that the warranty does not go along with the product once the receiver is sold for the second time. Why? becuase it is one of the only ways for Denon to protect themselves, dealers, and consumers from the shady business practices that are common in online dealers.

And, no, a manufacturer shouldn't have to honor the warranty on products that were purchased "new in a box" no matter where they were purchased from. If that company isn't an authorized dealer, they had no right to sell it to you. Period.

If you went out and bought a new in the box Rolex from a guy on the street, should Rolex have to fix it for you and provide a warranty? No. Will they? No.

Besides, you're missing the whole point. If someone is buying a product without authorization to resell, they ARE considered the consumer or end-user. Because if they weren't, they would be an authorized reseller. The warranty stops at one end-user, not multiple consumer(s) or consumers to the upteenth degree. Usually it's one and done.

And you are so misinformed about what it means to become an authorized dealer from some of these manufacturers it's laughable. I have to fly to SanFran once every two years (they really like to see installers once a year) to do Vidikron training so that they are ensured that I can service my customers properly. Other manufacturer's are very similar in requirments like this. Whether it be training, or meetings, etc. Many of them require some type of educational relationship.

Worse than your ignorance on how business is conducted in the A/V industry are the statments about the online retailers being the same as brick and mortar stores. Before starting my own company I worked for a manufacturer in the A/V industry. I sold to and delt with more online e-tailers than you could immagine. There are more dirt balls trying to rip their customers off in the worst way on the internet than there are people trying to provide a good service to consumers. For the most part, online e-tailers are just people with a vendors liscense. They don't know what they are selling, they don't usually even care.

You also state that Denon can easily find out where gray market goods, refurbs, etc. come from and stop it tommorrow? How? There's no way. How can Denon track shipments made by a distributor in, i don't know, Turkey to the US? How? You think that distributor tells Denon where it ships everyting? NO!

I'm sorry if your local stereo shop is filled with a bunch of jerks that rip people off. There are several here where I am located. I was at a home the other day and the customer told me that their home theater cost them $115K. Looking at the equipment and the room treatments used there wasn't $75K worth of material or labor. They thought they had bought brand A speakers (the invoice said so, too) but they had gotten brand C. It was disgusting. But, don't think that the only thing a local A/V integrator has to offer is a warranty. That's absurd. I haven't brought up, nor have I had brought up to me, word warranty in over a year. To ***/u/me that a warranty is why people buy from authorized dealers and that's the manufacturer's way of "pissing in their face" is F'ing moronic.

At least two "magical" - as you put it - things happen when you buy from an authorized reseller.

1. If the thing breaks, you can get it fixed or replaced without a hassle.

2. If you feel you were ripped off, you can call Denon, explain your problem, and they will know who the hell you are talking about and can help you. If an online e-tailer is getting Denon's product from someone besides Denon (which is where they would get it because they are not authorized) or a Denon distributor, what the hell do they care if Denon calls them or not? They wouldn't, because Denon can't do a thing.

Please understand that I am speaking in generalities. They are generalities that in my 7 years in the A/V industry working in retail, manufacturing, and my own integration company I have found to be true. There are many exceptions out there, but the best way to find one is through an authorized dealer either at a brick and mortar store or online.

 

[InTheIndustry]

If you buy from an "authorized" dealer you pay more and you get a warranty.

If you buy from an "unauthorized" dealer, you pay less and you don't get a warranty.

The evident truth is that the manufacturer in fact does not provide a warranty on their product.
Rather, they sell you one if you choose to buy it.

All the rest is just spin.

These staments might just be the dumbest ones I've read in a while.

 

[shokhead]

If you buy from an "authorized" dealer you pay more and you get a warranty.

If you buy from an "unauthorized" dealer, you pay less and you don't get a warranty.

The evident truth is that the manufacturer in fact does not provide a warranty on their product.
Rather, they sell you one if you choose to buy it.

All the rest is just spin.

So no matter who you buy it from,no warr.

 

[rmongiovi]

These staments might just be the dumbest ones I've read in a while.

Why, such a well-reasoned rebuttal!

Color me convinced.

 

[sholling]

All that the authorized dealer requirement protects are profit margins. Because Denon dealers are all expected to list Denon products for full MSRP and they do not have to fear being undercut by another dealer which of course gives them a reason to push Denon products over other brands. It’s the same reason that an otherwise bright and highly respected authorized dealer might make shrill cries about Ace Ventura and describe legitimate internet discounters as shady. It’s all about maintaining very hefty profit margins. B&M costs being what they are discount competition can be a very scary thing to a small business person trying to make a living.

When I buy a car with a 5 year warranty I expect that warranty to transfer when I sell the car and guess what – it does! And, there’s a heck of a lot more abuse potential and things to go wrong in a car. I’ve had lots of car repairs done, but I haven’t had to have a receiver repaired in over 23 years (a $20 volume pot cleaning), and have only had one electronic device (a tweeter) fail within factory warranty in 50 years so I’ll take my chances and save 30%.

What it all boils down to is using scare tactics to guaranty your dealers an excessive profit margin so that they will push your product over equally good or better competing products. The rest is all just simple smoke and mirrors.

 

[InTheIndustry]

All that the authorized dealer requirement protects are profit margins. Because Denon dealers are all expected to list Denon products for full MSRP and they do not have to fear being undercut by another dealer which of course gives them a reason to push Denon products over other brands. It’s the same reason that an otherwise bright and highly respected authorized dealer might make shrill cries about Ace Ventura and describe legitimate internet discounters as shady. It’s all about maintaining very hefty profit margins. B&M costs being what they are discount competition can be a very scary thing to a small business person trying to make a living.

When I buy a car with a 5 year warranty I expect that warranty to transfer when I sell the car and guess what – it does! And, there’s a heck of a lot more abuse potential and things to go wrong in a car. I’ve had lots of car repairs done, but I haven’t had to have a receiver repaired in over 23 years (a $20 volume pot cleaning), and have only had one electronic device (a tweeter) fail within factory warranty in 50 years so I’ll take my chances and save 30%.

What it all boils down to is using scare tactics to guaranty your dealers an excessive profit margin so that they will push your product over equally good or better competing products. The rest is all just simple smoke and mirrors.

These statements are absurd. I stated before that products like receivers can usually be sold at whatever price the retailer wants without fear of repercussions from the manufacturer. Period. Your conspiracy theory about price protection is false. I could sell you a Denon receiver right now at or below my cost. Then, I could call Denon and tell them what I sold it to you for. You know what they'll say? Absolutely nothing at all! They’d probably find it strange that a dealer would be calling to tell them something like that. Since you aren't a Denon dealer and have never been a Denon dealer, how can you speak as to what Denon dealers have to or don’t have to do? You can't. You're just another uninformed person on a computer who thinks he has it all figured out.

I presented other arguments and cited specific, real life, examples as to why dealing with an e-tailer can potentially be a bad thing for both consumers and a manufacturer. You are choosing to ignore those examples because of your need to justify yourself as to why authorized dealers aren't okayed on the internet.

News flash..... The automotive industry is completely different than the A/V industry. A completely different set of rules and regulations apply to it for very specific reasons.

And as far as "excessive profit margins" are concerned I question what that means. "Excessive profit margins". Like you have any idea what profit margin exists in a receiver? I'm really curious as to what your idea of excessive/hefty is? Is there such a thing as excessive savings? No? Lol... why not? Because people want to either save or make as much as possible. There are risks involved in that when dealing with the A/V industry. And, no, it isn't all your dealer or manufacturer's fault.

In terms of products breaking.... failure rate on electronics like an A/V receiver is quite lower than what people think. Not buying from an e-tailer because there's no warranty on the product should be the least of your concerns. Please see my previous posts as to reasons as such.

I could truly care less about where people buy a receiver. Online, flea market, local integrator, doesn't matter to me. My business is not interested in just selling a receiver. Will I? Sure, but it's usually at my cost + 10% because moving boxes is just not business I chase and I’m happy to help an enthusiast out if all I have to do is drop it off to him. We offer full service solutions and there will always be a market for it. The reason I even replied to this thread is because it showed such an arrogant ignorance to facts and lack of knowledge on subject matter that I couldn't help myself. If you choose to be ignorant, fine, but don't preach it to others.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Why, such a well-reasoned rebuttal!

Color me convinced.

I stated true, factual reasons as to why manufacturers have authorized dealers and don't usually allow sales of their products online. You posted mindless statements that have no bearing on truth or facts. So, I replied in kind.

For a well reasoned rebuttal, please see my other posts on this thread.

 

[Nick250]

I am with Takesereasy on this, with my own spin. If Denon says they will only warranty products purchased from authorized sources, that's the end of it. There is nothing to argue. That is part of their business strategy they have chosen to employ and they have every their right to so. What you, me or anyone else thinks Denon should do is irrelevant. If you think Denon's way of doing things is stupid and unfair then take your business elsewhere. This is not that freakin complicated, it's the free marketplace working as it should.
Nick

 

[rmongiovi]

We're not talking merchants who sell stolen goods, correct? That means that whoever I bought the equipment from paid for it, right? Since I presume they are not selling the item for less than they paid for it, since everybody's in this to make a profit, the manufacturer surely sold it to them at a lower price as unwarrantied equipment. We're not talking stuff sold off the back of a van, the manufacturer know all this is going on. This equipment still has the serial numbers intact.

So effectively, the difference in price between the identical equipment bought from an unwarrantied site and a warrantied site is the price I'm paying for the warranty.

Now, instead of telling me this is train of logic is stupid, or even just calling me an ignorant slut, tell me which of my assumptions is incorrect.

This is an argument, not just simple contradiction. If I wanted abuse I'd have gone down the hall.

 

[sholling]

I'll say this for Denon. They are very up front about their silly policies. It's all over their website and thus solidly enforcable. There are others that bury it in the fine print of their warranties were no one will find it before making a purchase.

 

[InTheIndustry]

We're not talking merchants who sell stolen goods, correct? That means that whoever I bought the equipment from paid for it, right? Since I presume they are not selling the item for less than they paid for it, since everybody's in this to make a profit, the manufacturer surely sold it to them at a lower price as unwarrantied equipment. We're not talking stuff sold off the back of a van, the manufacturer know all this is going on. This equipment still has the serial numbers intact.

So effectively, the difference in price between the identical equipment bought from an unwarrantied site and a warrantied site is the price I'm paying for the warranty.

Now, instead of telling me this is train of logic is stupid, or even just calling me an ignorant slut, tell me which of my assumptions is incorrect.

This is an argument, not just simple contradiction. If I wanted abuse I'd have gone down the hall.

I am sorry to have offended you. I was wrong to have done so like I did. I am passionate about the A/V industry and get carried away some times. I will try again.... without sarcasm. If you agree, fine. If not, I am fine with that too.

Here goes... Manufacturers do not offer a warranty or "no warranty" option purchase plan for dealers. They do not secretly sell to online companies. If someone is found selling products online their ability to buy products through the manufacturer is revoked. Can the offending company go through a source like a distributor to still get the product? Sure. But the manufacturer can and will order something from that website, trace the serial number back to the distributor or marketing rep and take care of it by revoking product from them. Many of these manufacturers take this very seriously. Some of them won't even allow pricing to be posted on the internet and have departments within their company that search the web for unauthorized dealers. Denon sells more product through independent dealers than they do on the web by a large margin.

Some manufacturers also protect territories by only allowing a certain number of dealers in an area. This allows them to control the quality of company that's selling the products as well as supply and demand for manufacturing purposes. It also protects the dealer from having to always compete on price and lets them compete on service and quality of product. Arcam, for example, is brutally hard on these policies of territory protection and training for its dealers. So is Halcro and a zillion others. Companies like Harman Kardon, Onkyo, Atlantic Technology, and most wire and cable companies are not restrictive at all and can be easily obtained through distribution channels.

A lot of companies selling online get products from over seas. A lot of them buy refurb and sell them as new. A lot of them obtain brand new products from a reputable (and un-knowing) distributor. But just because something has a serial number on it does not mean that it got into the resellers hands reputably or that the manufacturer knows about it and supports it being there.

From an enthusiast stand point, I can understand that setting up new gear is a great experience. It's fun. But, most people aren't A/V enthusiasts. They are uninformed, easy to take advantage of, and have real world concerns and problems setting up new and unfamiliar technology. These authorized dealer rules are meant to protect them (as much as possible) from poor service and representation of a company's products.

While, yes, protecting price points is a very real motivator in keeping products off the web it isn't the only reason. These manufacturers really care about what there gear is used for. They care about how you as the end user is treated. They care about if a dealer can handle a technical support question properly or not. They do not want shady people who are only out there to take your money and provide nothing else to represent their products. When you think of Denon, for example, they want you to think of the finest A/V electronics out there. Part of that is price tag and part of that is your experience with a Denon authorized dealer.

My Denon rep asked a lot of questions of me before I was allowed to buy. I had lunch with him and provided trade references. It was kind of like a two way interview. I interviewing him and the Denon line and him interviewing me to see if I had integrity and knew the industry and my market. He wanted to see my office and meet my carpenter, electrician, etc. Some companies do this, some don't. Sometimes it depends on the rep in that territory.

The reason that they do this is because they don't want their products sold by irresponsible companies that don't know how to properly install and sell their gear. They also want to make sure that I have the ability to take care of my customers. I truly believe this.

Why is all of this important? Because the company cares about the service and experience that you get when purchasing their products. What they are selling (to a strong extent), besides great audio gear, is an image. Allowing their products to be sold in the worlds largest flea market, the internet, would serve to tarnish that image more than it would serve to help it.

 

[jonnythan]

I am with Takesereasy on this, with my own spin. If Denon says they will only warranty products purchased from authorized sources, that's the end of it. There is nothing to argue. That is part of their business strategy they have chosen to employ and they have every their right to so. What you, me or anyone else thinks Denon should do is irrelevant. If you think Denon's way of doing things is stupid and unfair then take your business elsewhere. This is not that freakin complicated, it's the free marketplace working as it should.
Nick

God forbid we actually have a discussion about business practices

I guess you're right. Forget it. Whatever the company's policy is, that's it, and there should be no further discussion.

 

[jonnythan]

We're not talking merchants who sell stolen goods, correct? That means that whoever I bought the equipment from paid for it, right? Since I presume they are not selling the item for less than they paid for it, since everybody's in this to make a profit, the manufacturer surely sold it to them at a lower price as unwarrantied equipment. We're not talking stuff sold off the back of a van, the manufacturer know all this is going on. This equipment still has the serial numbers intact.

So effectively, the difference in price between the identical equipment bought from an unwarrantied site and a warrantied site is the price I'm paying for the warranty.

Now, instead of telling me this is train of logic is stupid, or even just calling me an ignorant slut, tell me which of my assumptions is incorrect.

This is an argument, not just simple contradiction. If I wanted abuse I'd have gone down the hall.

The extra money doesn't go to Denon. The internet retailers are simply marking up their products way less than local retailers because they have the volume and low overhead to justify doing so.. plus they probably don't have to worry about Denon punishing them for advertising super low prices.

The extra money you're paying, which ostensibly covers a warranty, is paying for the local shop's overhead. Denon doesn't see a dime of it.

 

[jonnythan]

Here goes... Manufacturers do not offer a warranty or "no warranty" option purchase plan for dealers. They do not secretly sell to online companies. If someone is found selling products online their ability to buy products through the manufacturer is revoked.

If that were even close to the truth, Denon would shut down those supply lines overnight.

I can buy a Denon receiver right now from an unauthorized retailer in a box that has never been unsealed from when it left the Denon factory. Denon could trace the serial number and shut down whatever middleman it went through.

They won't.

This practice is common in every low-volume niche market supported by boutique stores. It's especially common in A/V equipment and SCUBA. Tons and tons of product fresh from the factory, whether it's Denon or Scubapro, is finding its way into the hands of "unauthorized" internet retailers while the manufacturer screams and screams about the evils of internet retailers. They try to make them all look like dirty crooks, when in reality most of them are very reputable businesses that take care of their customers.

It's stupid, and it's not good for the consumer. They do these things because it helps maintain the status quo in the retail market.. but they're not stupid, and they know they can do a ton of "on the side" business. They just have to maintain the ruse for the shops that would go out of business because they can't stay in business without the artifice of the "authorized dealer"

 

[jonnythan]

(It's late, forgive me)

Let me put it this way.

If Denon actually put an end to the unauthorized dealer sales, the local shops would drop Denon products because they wouldn't be able to compete with the online shops. Another manufacturer would move into the local shop arena and Denon would lose a certain amount of mindshare among the A/V community because it's a mostly-"internet" brand.

 

[AdrianMills]

Lots of interesting industry info and well reasoned arguments

Unfortunately you'll never convince everyone that the "Authorized Dealer" concept is a good one and that it’s there as much to protect us as them - I've seen similar discussions rage on a number of sites and participated in a few and the main protagonists on the anti side rarely listen to reason.

Good posts from you though and I appreciate that you took the time to post and try to enlighten the ignorant.

 

[Nick250]

God forbid we actually have a discussion about business practices

I guess you're right. Forget it. Whatever the company's policy is, that's it, and there should be no further discussion.

The OP asks a simple question about where he can buy an Yamaha online. A couple of posts in, out of the blue the thread gets hijacked by the nonsense quoted below. Hardly helpful to the OP or the start any kind of rational discussion on business practices IMO, not to mention the hijacking.


Why would anyone buy anything from a manufacturer that will only honor their warranty if one buys from a dealer that conspires (agrees to never discount) in order to rip you off? It’s simply a scam based price pumping technique intended to lend an aurora of ultra quality based solely on a premium price. This should be seriously illegal! I suggest shopping features/sound for the money. Does anyone really think that the sweet but seriously over priced Denon AVR-4806 sounds over 4 times better than the similar but easily available for $950 Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXSi? Most sales slugs that I’ve spoken with admit that for music the Pioneer blows away the Denon, but still give a slight nod to the Denon for movies. Give things a listen and then buy only ftom ethical brands.

 

[Nick250]

God forbid we actually have a discussion about business practices

I guess you're right. Forget it. Whatever the company's policy is, that's it, and there should be no further discussion.

The OP asks a simple question about where he can buy an Yamaha online. A couple of posts in, out of the blue the thread gets hijacked by the crap quoted below. Hardly helpful to the OP or the start any kind of rational discussion on business practices IMO, not to mention the hijacking.


Why would anyone buy anything from a manufacturer that will only honor their warranty if one buys from a dealer that conspires (agrees to never discount) in order to rip you off? It’s simply a scam based price pumping technique intended to lend an aurora of ultra quality based solely on a premium price. This should be seriously illegal!.