Onkyo and others are on a "race to the bottom"

[GranteedEV]

We would be better off with fewer functions at the lower price point and put the money where it counts

Quoting this, for truth

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The problem with these companies is they are targeting the mass market to make the quickest and largest sum of money. They are not selling to the audiophiles.

The companies that are selling to the "audiophiles" can't make that quick $$, and the prices are usually very high.

It seems like the higher-end you go, the less features you see.

Look at the Carry Audio pre-pro. It is barebones in terms of features, yet it costs $4K.

The same can be said of the Classe & Bryston pre-pros.

The Emotiva UMC-1 is the cheapest pre-pro on the market, yet it has all the features you see in any AVR. So it's basically an AVR without the internal amps.

So the problem is most people cannot afford these $2,000+ pre-pros.

If they can only spend around $1K, they have the Emotiva UMC-1 or the AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer, Integra, Onkyo, HK, etc.

Can we say that the UMC-1 exudes more quality than the AVRs?

I can get the Denon AVR-4311 from an authorized dealer for $1,200. It is made in Japan. I think it is pretty good quality.

Can anyone really say the $1,500 Marantz pre-pro and the UMC-1, which are both made in China, are better built than the Denon 4311?

 

[TLS Guy]

The problem with these companies is they are targeting the mass market to make the quickest and largest sum of money. They are not selling to the audiophiles.

The companies that are selling to the "audiophiles" can't make that quick $$, and the prices are usually very high.

It seems like the higher-end you go, the less features you see.

Look at the Carry Audio pre-pro. It is barebones in terms of features, yet it costs $4K.

The same can be said of the Classe & Bryston pre-pros.

The Emotiva UMC-1 is the cheapest pre-pro on the market, yet it has all the features you see in any AVR. So it's basically an AVR without the internal amps.

So the problem is most people cannot afford these $2,000+ pre-pros.

If they can only spend around $1K, they have the Emotiva UMC-1 or the AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer, Integra, Onkyo, HK, etc.

Can we say that the UMC-1 exudes more quality than the AVRs?

I can get the Denon AVR-4311 from an authorized dealer for $1,200. It is made in Japan. I think it is pretty good quality.

Can anyone really say the $1,500 Marantz pre-pro and the UMC-1, which are both made in China, are better built than the Denon 4311?

I just don't like the idea of having amps on that I'm not using. The cost of the amps has to detract from the quality of the rest of the unit.

My Marantz unit has a very good build quality and cost what I expected it to, based on measured performance and rock stable performance since installed.

I just hope the AV 7005 has not been downgraded in quality at $1500. I'm suspicious that it may have been cheapened.

A decent pre pro should cost about $2000 to $2500 to have decent build and design quality.

We will see whose unit lasts longer, that is really the final test. I hope to get 10 years plus service from mine.

It will probably end up being a toss up whether it is me or the AV 8003 that dies first!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just don't like the idea of having amps on that I'm not using. The cost of the amps has to detract from the quality of the rest of the unit. My Marantz unit has a very good build quality and cost what I expected it to, based on measured performance and rock stable performance since installed.

I can see that taking out the amps and actually putting that money into the other sections/parts makes perfect sense. It's logical.

But in real life, can we say that the Emotiva UMC-1 has better parts and measures better than a $1.5K Denon AVR?

I think the key is Measured Performance. This is objective. Numbers don't lie.

What if a $2,000 AVR measures better than a $2,000 pre-pro?

Personally I would still take the pre-pro, like you, but I can't say the pre-pro outperforms the AVR just because it does not have any amps inside it.

I just hope the AV 7005 has not been downgraded in quality at $1500. I'm suspicious that it may have been cheapened.

A decent pre pro should cost about $2000 to $2500 to have decent build and design quality.

Here is the AV7005 pre-pro:
THD+N is less than 0.023%. Crosstalk was –87.87 dB left to right and –87.25 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio was –121.49 dBrA.—MJP

Here is the AV8003 pre-pro:
THD+N is less than 0.023%. Crosstalk was –87.35 dB left to right and –86.48 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio was –122.19 dBrA.—MJP

So the cheaper AV7005 beats the AV8003 in terms of crosstalk, but the AV8003 beats the AV7005 on SNR. But completely inaudible.

Here is the Pioneer SC37 Receiver:
THD+N was less than 0.007%. Crosstalk was –97.27 dB left to right and –96.79 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio was –105.63 dBrA.

They all have exceptional measured performance. Completely inaudible differences.

The receiver actually beats both the pre-pros in terms of THD & epecially crosstalk! The pre-pros beat the receiver in terms of SNR. But again, all these numbers are completely inaudible.

 

[GranteedEV]

But in real life, can we say that the Emotiva UMC-1 has better parts and measures better than a $1.5K Denon AVR?

The problem with the UMC-1 is its software. I'm sure the hardware is top notch.

If they can figure out the software, the Emo Prepros could become revolutionary.

 

[3db]

I have to agree with TLS on this. The Western world lives in a throw away society that is killing our planet and eventually will do humanity in as well. Some of the most toxic substances to life comes from the manufacturing of electronics. Recycling has not gone very far at all in the worlld of electronics. Its just offshored to China where they have, what boils down to nothing more than labour camps, ripping components off of circuit cards and melting the plastics and PVCs to extract the precious metals contained within. These poor saps are dieing left right and centter with all kinds of unmentionable cancers. Electronic recycling is what Mark has stated, a myth.


Since I entered the domain of HT, I've only upgarded my receiver once. My first HT AVR was from Technics (SADX940) and I was very happy with the receivers performance. It did its job very well. Even had a phono input. Then came the HD with its new codecs. I upgraded in Nov2008 to a Yamaha RX-V1800 which included all the bells and whistles I ever need to get a level matched HT suite of speakers playing past the comfort level with clean authortative power, allow video upconnversion, and yes, that phono input. I got it for half price new as it was already being replaced by the RX-V1900 which had fancier on screen menues etc. All things being equal, if Blu-Ray stays around for the next 40 years or so, and my recevier will last that long, then I'l be truly happy.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The problem with the UMC-1 is its software. I'm sure the hardware is top notch.

If they can figure out the software, the Emo Prepros could become revolutionary.

Okay, you have a point there.

UMC-1 Audioholic Bench:

THD 0.0006%
SNR -95dB
Crosstalk -81dB @ 1kHz

So it does measure very well indeed!

Is the software pretty much fixed now so that we can start recommending this thing?

EDIT: Nope, I just checked the UMC-1 thread, and Majorloser is still having bug issues on the UMC-1. Too bad.

 

[TLS Guy]

I can see that taking out the amps and actually putting that money into the other sections/parts makes perfect sense. It's logical.

But in real life, can we say that the Emotiva UMC-1 has better parts and measures better than a $1.5K Denon AVR?

I think the key is Measured Performance. This is objective. Numbers don't lie.

What if a $2,000 AVR measures better than a $2,000 pre-pro?

Personally I would still take the pre-pro, like you, but I can't say the pre-pro outperforms the AVR just because it does not have any amps inside it.




Here is the AV7005 pre-pro:
THD+N is less than 0.023%. Crosstalk was –87.87 dB left to right and –87.25 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio was –121.49 dBrA.—MJP

Here is the AV8003 pre-pro:
THD+N is less than 0.023%. Crosstalk was –87.35 dB left to right and –86.48 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio was –122.19 dBrA.—MJP

So the cheaper AV7005 beats the AV8003 in terms of crosstalk, but the AV8003 beats the AV7005 on SNR. But completely inaudible.

Here is the Pioneer SC37 Receiver:
THD+N was less than 0.007%. Crosstalk was –97.27 dB left to right and –96.79 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio was –105.63 dBrA.

They all have exceptional measured performance. Completely inaudible differences.

The receiver actually beats both the pre-pros in terms of THD & epecially crosstalk! The pre-pros beat the receiver in terms of SNR. But again, all these numbers are completely inaudible.

The problem is you can have two pieces of gear that measure the same, and one may consistently last about 6 months and the other over 20 years. Build and design go to longevity and freedom from faults as much as anything else.

The other issue is headroom. This is just about never quoted or generally measured in tests. Yet headroom on the inputs and outputs is about the most important parameter in any preamp.

My Marantz has huge headroom. That was the first thing I measured when I got it.

 

[Adam]

The problem is you can have two pieces of gear that measure the same, and one may consistently last about 6 months and the other over 20 years. Build and design go to longevity and freedom from faults as much as anything else.

Mark, with the move to lead-free solder and the resulting tin whisker issue, what are your thoughts on longevity with items built these days? There are ways to get around the issue, but do you know if any audio equipment manufacturers are using them?

 

[lsiberian]

Mark, with the move to lead-free solder and the resulting tin whisker issue, what are your thoughts on longevity with items built these days? There are ways to get around the issue, but do you know if any audio equipment manufacturers are using them?

lead-free solder is problematic, but the lack of quality QA is even more troublesome. You can use whatever kind of solder you want and still have major issues with bad QA. My family used to have a business based on how bad it was. Of course throw away electronics ended that, but the problems are even worse now than before, because everything has a computer in it. This is why the pre-pro/amp model makes more sense. If you only have to replace the pre-pro then you save a lot of materials, labor and cost.

 

[bikdav]

You May Have Just Hit the BIG IF

I have to agree with TLS on this. The Western world lives in a throw away society that is killing our planet and eventually will do humanity in as well. Some of the most toxic substances to life comes from the manufacturing of electronics. Recycling has not gone very far at all in the worlld of electronics. Its just offshored to China where they have, what boils down to nothing more than labour camps, ripping components off of circuit cards and melting the plastics and PVCs to extract the precious metals contained within. These poor saps are dieing left right and centter with all kinds of unmentionable cancers. Electronic recycling is what Mark has stated, a myth.


Since I entered the domain of HT, I've only upgarded my receiver once. My first HT AVR was from Technics (SADX940) and I was very happy with the receivers performance. It did its job very well. Even had a phono input. Then came the HD with its new codecs. I upgraded in Nov2008 to a Yamaha RX-V1800 which included all the bells and whistles I ever need to get a level matched HT suite of speakers playing past the comfort level with clean authortative power, allow video upconnversion, and yes, that phono input. I got it for half price new as it was already being replaced by the RX-V1900 which had fancier on screen menues etc. All things being equal, if Blu-Ray stays around for the next 40 years or so, and my recevier will last that long, then I'l be truly happy.

I bet that for now things are focusing around Blu-Ray and 3D. I heard a story that neither of them are .... um ..... "setting the world on fire". In homes that I've been in, I see a flat screen TV, but no real surround sound system.

 

[TLS Guy]

Mark, with the move to lead-free solder and the resulting tin whisker issue, what are your thoughts on longevity with items built these days? There are ways to get around the issue, but do you know if any audio equipment manufacturers are using them?

Lead free solder requires higher temperatures. The whisker problem is not solved. New fluxes have helped, but it seems they have more toxins, than lead. This has made the environmental problems worse!

I do not use lead free solder.

I think there are two problems, the whisker issue and heat damage to components during manufacture due to the much higher melting points and longer dwell times of lead free solder.

I suspect that most more expensive items are made with silver solder, which is the best way to get round the lead free issue.

This will further widen the gap between low and high priced equipment in terms of longevity.

You can tell the difference between boards with lead free tin solder and boards made with silver solder.

Tin lead free solder joints are dull. Traditional leaded joints and silver solder joints are nice and shiny.

My Marantz unit has nice shiny joints and so I'm pretty sure it was made with silver solder.

 

[PENG]

Here is the AV7005 pre-pro:
THD+N is less than 0.023%. Crosstalk was –87.87 dB left to right and –87.25 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio was –121.49 dBrA.—MJP

Here is the AV8003 pre-pro:
THD+N is less than 0.023%. Crosstalk was –87.35 dB left to right and –86.48 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio was –122.19 dBrA.—MJP

So the cheaper AV7005 beats the AV8003 in terms of crosstalk, but the AV8003 beats the AV7005 on SNR. But completely inaudible.

Here is the Pioneer SC37 Receiver:
THD+N was less than 0.007%. Crosstalk was –97.27 dB left to right and –96.79 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio was –105.63 dBrA.

They all have exceptional measured performance. Completely inaudible differences.

The receiver actually beats both the pre-pros in terms of THD & epecially crosstalk! The pre-pros beat the receiver in terms of SNR. But again, all these numbers are completely inaudible.

All good points, I would like to add a couple more:

- The AV7005 is made in Japan, the 8003 made in China, both going for around $1500, less for bargain hunters. The 8003 uses some more expensive components.

- The Marantz pre-pros have better S/N an C/T but that's just measured at the pre-outs, whereas Pioneer's are overall numbers from input to power amp output.

I am not too worry about S/N as long as they are reasonably good such as better than -100 dBrA but I do think the CT numbers are important. I could hear more CT from my Marantz pre-pro if I use certain inputs than I could from my AVR-4308. You may be right about it being "inaudible" for real world listening but I am not totally sure the effect of it on sound quality. I certainly doubt I have the ability to discern any SQ difference in my system (due to CT) using my ears but others may. So just in case, I prefer systems with above average CT specs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

All good points, I would like to add a couple more:

- The AV7005 is made in Japan, the 8003 made in China, both going for around $1500, less for bargain hunters. The 8003 uses some more expensive components.

- The Marantz pre-pros have better S/N an C/T but that's just measured at the pre-outs, whereas Pioneer's are overall numbers from input to power amp output.

I am not too worry about S/N as long as they are reasonably good such as better than -100 dBrA but I do think the CT numbers are important. I could hear more CT from my Marantz pre-pro if I use certain inputs than I could from my AVR-4308. You may be right about it being "inaudible" for real world listening but I am not totally sure the effect of it on sound quality. I certainly doubt I have the ability to discern any SQ difference in my system (due to CT) using my ears but others may. So just in case, I prefer systems with above average CT specs.

That's what I get for being too lazy to do a google image search

The rear panel of the AV7005 says MADE IN JAPAN. Doh! My bad.

The rear panel of the AV8003 says MADE IN CHINA:

I wonder why HTM doesn't just measure the SNR of the pre-pro section with the pre-outs on all the AVRs?

I'm with you 100% on the crosstalk numbers.

You know the very first thing I do when I read a HTM or Audioholics review of a AVR or pre-pro or amp?

I look at those crosstalk numbers!!!

Then I look at the SNR.

 

[Adam]

The rear panel of the AV8003 says MADE IN JAPAN:

I think that you have a copy-and-paste error there. The picture says Made in China, and I think that's what you intended to show to agree with Peng.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think that you have a copy-and-paste error there. The picture says Made in China, and I think that's what you intended to show to agree with Peng.

I was hoping no one saw that before I changed it.

But, oh, no. No such luck.

I knew, of course, that the AV8003 was made in China. So I automatically assumed the AV7005 was also made in China.

So I wonder if the AV7005 is like the Denon 4310/4311 (both made in Japan), but without the amps?

 

[DD66000]

Okay, you have a point there.

UMC-1 Audioholic Bench:

THD 0.0006%
SNR -95dB
Crosstalk -81dB @ 1kHz

So it does measure very well indeed!

Is the software pretty much fixed now so that we can start recommending this thing?

EDIT: Nope, I just checked the UMC-1 thread, and Majorloser is still having bug issues on the UMC-1. Too bad.

That is why Parasound scraped their 7 channel pre/pro last summer. It was based on the platform that Emotiva used for the UMC-1.

The difference between the 2 companies:
Parasound would not put out a piece of junk.
Emotiva ignored the problems and sold "as is", so buyer beware!

That is why I use Parasound gear. Excellent quality @ reasonable prices from a company I respect for its integrity.
That last part, I would state for very few electronic brands.

 

[M Code]

I was hoping no one saw that before I changed it.

But, oh, no. No such luck.

I knew, of course, that the AV8003 was made in China. So I automatically assumed the AV7005 was also made in China.

So I wonder if the AV7005 is like the Denon 4310/4311 (both made in Japan), but without the amps?

It is too expensive to build the price-point AV products in Japan, the yen to US$ exchange rate is too strong as the value of the US$ has been severely eroded over the last 2 1/2 years..
Regarding Marantz & Denon factories they do maintain (1) common factory (Kumamoto) in Japan that builds just the very high-end components and certain unique models only sold in Japan.

Marantz's subcontractor in China also builds Harman/Kardon, NAD and Yamaha and is now starting to build some models for Denon. However D&M Holdings has constructed a significant size new factory in China to build their products but it has had some start-up issues. It will take another 2 years before this factory is capable of building middle to higher end AV products. Another benefit for having their own factory in China, will allow them to have access to some of China's domestic market which is growing significantly..

Just my $0.02...

 

[DD66000]

A few years ago I was doing some side work for a guy who's job was finding the right location for companies needing a manufacturing plant. Based on product, available materials, quality of the work force.

He told me that the quality of products coming from China really depended on one thing. Where the QC was done. If done on site, it was good. If not done until the product reached the US, it was bad. End of story.

I saw that theory first hand when I worked for a metal building company, they opened a plant and engineering dept. in China, many of the construction drawings were so bad that I had to redo the whole project from scratch. All because they had no one there to properly check drawings.