Onkyo 604 vs Pioneer 1016 vs Yamaha 659 vs Denon 1507

[videobruce]

I sort of hate to ask this, it's NOT a 'which is the best' thread.

Between these models;
Onkyo TX-SR604,
Pioneer VSX-1016TXV,
Yamaha RX-V659,
Denon AVR-1507

For this application;

HDTV w/ optical out and two HDMI inputs,
4.0 speaker setup (yes, it's only a 4.0),
CD player w/ optical out (separate source, separate zone option desired),
DVD player w/ HDMI & optical out,
HD DVR w/ HDMI & optical out,
Computer w/ DVI out,
FTA satellite receiver w/ S/PDIF out

1. The HDMI issue (since only the first two have HDMI), can any receiver pass the audio through using just HDMI, or do you have to use a optical connection also? I know I can get an external HDMI switch since the TV only has two HDMI inputs, but other than conveinance, is there some other reason running to the audio receiver first is better that using an external switch?

2. Is there really any audible difference at this level of quality using speakers well under $1k a pair? Or to put it another way, what price range (speakers) would you have to go to to hear a difference?

3. Is Yamaha still 'better' (overall quality) as they were in the 80s' considering their higher price?

4. If I went with the cheaper Denon, (between $120 & $160 less than the others) other than the lack of HDMI and multi source capability, what other shortcomings would it have?

Thanks in advance.

 

[speakerman39]

I sort of hate to ask this, it's NOT a 'which is the best' thread.

Between these models;
Onkyo TX-SR604,
Pioneer VSX-1016TXV,
Yamaha RX-V659,
Denon AVR-1507

For this application;

HDTV w/ optical out and two HDMI inputs,
4.0 speaker setup (yes, it's only a 4.0),
CD player w/ optical out (separate source, separate zone option desired),
DVD player w/ HDMI & optical out,
HD DVR w/ HDMI & optical out,
Computer w/ DVI out,
FTA satellite receiver w/ S/PDIF out

1. The HDMI issue (since only the first two have HDMI), can any receiver pass the audio through using just HDMI, or do you have to use a optical connection also? I know I can get an external HDMI switch since the TV only has two HDMI inputs, but other than conveinance, is there some other reason running to the audio receiver first is better that using an external switch?

2. Is there really any audible difference at this level of quality using speakers well under $1k a pair? Or to put it another way, what price range (speakers) would you have to go to to hear a difference?

3. Is Yamaha still 'better' (overall quality) as they were in the 80s' considering their higher price?

4. If I went with the cheaper Denon, (between $120 & $160 less than the others) other than the lack of HDMI and multi source capability, what other shortcomings would it have?

Thanks in advance.

Of those you listed here is my take:
(1) As a current Pioneer 1015 owner from what I understand the 1016 has some issues with sending audio via the hdmi interface. Also, the 1016 has the bi-polar transistors instead of the mosfets that my 1015 has.
(2) From what I have garnered lately from my readings both the Yammie 659 and the Onkyo 604 can send audio via hdmi. The 659 also uses burr-brown dacs which is the ONLY receiver that offers them at this price. And, Yamaha is notorious for buliding impeccable products-especially receivers.
(3) Sorry, am not familiar with the Denon so others here could comment on that unit. If it were me, I believe I would have to go with the Yammie 659 due to its peformance and Yamahas solidly built reputation. Not taking anything from Onkyo BUT rather acknowledging my own personal experience with Yamaha. However, I am MORE than happy with my 1015 and some day hope to own the Elite 84. Unfortunately, that may be a while.

 

[videobruce]

1016 has the bi-polar transistors instead of the mosfets

And the difference is??

659 also uses burr-brown dacs

Thrill me on that also.

 

[Nick250]

Videobruce, the quality of sound that you hear when listening to music in your comfy chair, feet up, has practically nothing to do with your receiver choice, so buy the one that has the features you need. I hope that simplifies things for you.

Nick

 

[speakerman39]

And the difference is?? Thrill me on that also.

Bruce think of the mosfets as component(s) that are more efficient than the bi-polar transistors. What does this really mean??? Well, by being more efficient that means that there would be less heat generated AND as a result provide for better sound quality. That is, less heat keeps thing running smoother if you will. The burr- brown digital to analog converters (dacs) are usually found on more expensive components. Yamaha is the ONLY manufacturer that offers them at the 659 price point. Basically, the burr-brown dacs provide for excellent sound quality. Hope this helps.

 

[videobruce]

mosfets as component(s) that are more efficient than the bi-polar transistors. What does this really mean?

Fully understand what "more efficient" means. It also means 'more expensive' and we can't have that can we? Easier way to sum it up; their cheaper.

It was the "burr-brown" part of the burr-brown DACs' that I never heard of before.

 

[speakerman39]

Fully understand what "more efficient" means. It also means 'more expensive' and we can't have that can we? Easier way to sum it up; their cheaper.

It was the "burr-brown" part of the burr-brown DACs' that I never heard of before.

I understand there.......just think of burr-brown dacs as being a very good thing. Of course, as you mentioned the better the burr-brown dacs the more expensive they get which translate to higher price tag with respect to whatever component you are buying that has them. Be sure to let us know what you decide. Maybe some other forum members here can give you more insight regarding the Denon you are considering. Good luck in your decision.

 

[videobruce]

I sort of ruled out the Yamaha because of cost. I was leaning towards that name. I looked at their cheapest HDMI recever (1600) and at around $1k, I just can't justify that price range for what I listen to.
The Pioneer doesn't have audio pass through with HDMI and it's more than the Onkyo and I was never that crazy about Pioneer.
I can get the Onkyo refurbished for $335 delivered (1 yr warrenty).
The Denon would be the choice w/o HDMI since it is $75 less than the refurbished Onkyo, but I'm worried that down the road I might miss the HDMI capability though I'm not sure here since I only have one component that has HDMI now and a DVD player on the way with HDMI. I am using the 2nd HDMI input on the TV for the computer, so I could buy a external switch if need be, but that only brings me closer to the Onkyo price anyway.

One thing I don't like about Onkyo; NO service manuals readily available (unless someone reading this has their web access that could PM me ). Whereas, Denon SMs' were free for the asking!

Just trying to look at the whole picture. I admit being in a 'cave' regarding 'digital' audio connection options since it was never a issue up to now. Audio always took a 'back seat' with me. Otherwise, I would of called myself audiobruce.

 

[RickC3C4]

Onkyo service manuals are available for download from their web site in PDF format though I just went there to get the address for this particular receiver and the web site is down so you'll have to check back with them later.

 

[videobruce]

Please show me where the SERVICE manual is available.

I believe you are thinking of the owners manual which I already have..............

 

[RickC3C4]

Ahh... I stand corrected, I was referring to the owners manual. My mistake.

 

[Seth=L]

Speakerman, The Yamaha does not have HDMI support at all. The Pioneer doesn't support audio over HDMI at all. The Onkyo is the only receiver in the list that can support audio over HDMI. It is probably the best value of the other receivers due to features and ease of use.

Burr-Brown DACs, that is almost irrelevant. You cannot possibly know the grade of the DAC from the statement "it has Burr-Brown DACs". Look at it this way. If you buy a Denon DVD player does that make it automatically awesome because it says Denon, of course not. Not to say Denon makes bad DVD players or that Burr Brown makes bad DACs, just that it makes little to possible no difference. Those could be extremely cheap, and basically only used for marketing purposes.

In general mosfets generate less heat, they are more efficient. But both the 1016 and 1015 meet THX power requirements spec., there shouldn't be any power problems, and limited to nill audio quality difference.

 

[speakerman39]

Speakerman, The Yamaha does not have HDMI support at all. The Pioneer doesn't support audio over HDMI at all. The Onkyo is the only receiver in the list that can support audio over HDMI. It is probably the best value of the other receivers due to features and ease of use.

Burr-Brown DACs, that is almost irrelevant. You cannot possibly know the grade of the DAC from the statement "it has Burr-Brown DACs". Look at it this way. If you buy a Denon DVD player does that make it automatically awesome because it says Denon, of course not. Not to say Denon makes bad DVD players or that Burr Brown makes bad DACs, just that it makes little to possible no difference. Those could be extremely cheap, and basically only used for marketing purposes.

In general mosfets generate less heat, they are more efficient. But both the 1016 and 1015 meet THX power requirements spec., there shouldn't be any power problems, and limited to nill audio quality difference.

Seth, you are correct regarding the hdmi with respect to the Yammie 659. After owning a Yammie RXV-650 then later upgrading to to the Yammie RX-V757 I have not been following Yamaha nearly as much. Was really disappointed in the 757 in that the 650 seemed to have more power. For some of us, burr-brown dacs is significant even if they are lower grade per se in this case it probably isn't a big deal. However, I was just pointing out some of the differences among the receivers the op listed as well as offer an opinion based on my own personal experience with both Yamaha and Pioneer. I also disagree with your comment regarding the mosfets BUT that is okay with me that you disagree. After all, if we all had the same opinion then we all would own the same equipment. Just think how boring that would be.....LOL!!! Of the original op list, Onkyo would be my LAST choice to say the least. My bad on the Yammie 659--thanks for bringing that to my attention.......as we all make mistakes. Just was offering my opinion as I am no expert BUT I do know a little about this hobby.

 

[Seth=L]

It is known that amplifiers don't commonly sound different, but rather preamps of receivers make an audible difference. THX certifications has guidelines to meet such as power requirements. The 1016 and 1015 should both be very capable of reaching reference volume in a mid-sized room.

Unless there is some kind of proof for the Burr Brown thing, then neither of us can really say if that makes it any better or worse than other DACs used in similarly priced receivers.

Other than the lack of a service manual, why else would you not choose Onkyo, just currious?

 

[speakerman39]

It is known that amplifiers don't commonly sound different, but rather preamps of receivers make an audible difference. THX certifications has guidelines to meet such as power requirements. The 1016 and 1015 should both be very capable of reaching reference volume in a mid-sized room.

Unless there is some kind of proof for the Burr Brown thing, then neither of us can really say if that makes it any better or worse than other DACs used in similarly priced receivers.

Other than the lack of a service manual, why else would you not choose Onkyo, just currious?

Seth there is nothing wrong with Onkyo but from the op's list it would be my last choice. To be perfectly honest with you, the Pioneer 1016 not being able to pass audio via the hdmi would not be a big deal to me and could easily be resolved by running a digital coax cable or optical cable. It may be a bit more expensive to do but no really big deal. As far as the 1016 being THX capable I have no doubts whatsoever and even said the bi-polar transistors work very well. It is just that imho, the mosfets are better over-all resulting in less heat. This is why the Elite TSX84 still has them being the "Flagship" of the Elite Line. I do agree with you, however, that a lot of the so called "advantages" or "distinctions" are nothing more than marketing bs. However, I do NOT believe that is the case regarding the mosfets. I also mentioned I was not familiar with the Denon receiver and offered no comment. If I could afford it there is no doubt in my mind that I would own an Elite 84. Could even live with a Yammie 2600 or an Onkyo 804 or a Denon 2307 if I remember correctly. If I sounded brash regarding the Onkyo I did not meant it to sound that way at all. In closing, I know you are very knowledgeable regarding this great hobby of ours as I have enjoyed reading many of your posts. No pun was ever intended. Am here to learn and grow by sharing in the knowledge of home audio as well as home theater.

 

[tenshi]

I posted a very similar thread very recently. Search for my username to find it. My two main options were the onkyo 604 and the Harman Kardon AVR 245. I finally decided on the Onkyo, and will let you know if I happen to have any problems. You might want to look at the HK, as it is almost identical in features to the Onkyo 604, and you can usually find it for about $20 less, and I'm willing to bet that they are both totally comparable in quality.

One caveat that has been reported, but not verified, though, is that the onkyo is the only one in its price range that will process audio through the DMI output. This is really a moot point for me, though, as I will probably never need it considering my primary display will be a speakerless projector.

 

[Seth=L]

The thing with audio processing through HDMI is that it will decode higher resolution LPCM from next-gen sources HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. That is why I view it to be a better value than the rest in the list. It is also one of the cheapest receivers on the list, and the easiest to setup and use.

The differences in power should be almost nill, there isn't much difference between 100 watts and 90 watts, maybe even an inaudible difference.