Okay...As I Get Closer to a Turntable Indulgence, I Have Some Questions...

[PearlcorderS701]

I am still considering the Technics SL1200 as was suggested by many here, but I just haven't had the opportunity to get up enough scratch for it yet -- before I look into getting perhaps a gently used one, I have some questions for you vinylphiles out there...

1. Can the SL1200's output voltage match the Phono input of my Onkyo TX-8555? Will it be okay to plug this table into this receiver?

2. Can anyone lead me in the right direction for LP storage? I have a ridiculous amount of albums and 12" singles (left over from a previous life as a mobile DJ) but I need somewhere to store them in my 2-channel room. Right now, they're in a closet in my office, stacked in alphabetical order against the walls; can someone recommend a site or product that is ideal for LP and 12" organization?

3. Can anyone recommend a good vinyl cleaning solution that's EASY -- such as via a liquid or fluid/brush? I don't want to do the whole expensive cleaning machine; is there something that's recommended that I can apply to reduce some of the popping on older LPs and lift some of the dirt and grime? Are there any affordable record cleaning machines, and how do they work?

Thanks in advance, fellow 'holics...

 

[highfigh]

I am still considering the Technics SL1200 as was suggested by many here, but I just haven't had the opportunity to get up enough scratch for it yet -- before I look into getting perhaps a gently used one, I have some questions for you vinylphiles out there...

1. Can the SL1200's output voltage match the Phono input of my Onkyo TX-8555? Will it be okay to plug this table into this receiver?

2. Can anyone lead me in the right direction for LP storage? I have a ridiculous amount of albums and 12" singles (left over from a previous life as a mobile DJ) but I need somewhere to store them in my 2-channel room. Right now, they're in a closet in my office, stacked in alphabetical order against the walls; can someone recommend a site or product that is ideal for LP and 12" organization?

3. Can anyone recommend a good vinyl cleaning solution that's EASY -- such as via a liquid or fluid/brush? I don't want to do the whole expensive cleaning machine; is there something that's recommended that I can apply to reduce some of the popping on older LPs and lift some of the dirt and grime? Are there any affordable record cleaning machines, and how do they work?

Thanks in advance, fellow 'holics...

The turntable has nothing to do with the output voltage, whatsoever. It's the cartridge that outputs the signal. If the tonearm wires have resistance, you'll never hear what you're supposed to, but they can be replaced (there's no point in going off the deep end on these and heavier is definitely worse than flexible). If you buy a moving magnet cartridge, you'll have no problems with signal level. If you buy a moving coil (MC), you'll need a moving coil preamp. Even a high output moving coil cartridge isn't as high as a moving magnet, so that's not necessarily the best solution unless the MC preamp has variable output.

As long as the albums are stored vertically, they should be fine. Not on an angle, but vertically. As far as cleaning them, that may not be easy if you want to use a really good machine. However, if you have a college or classical radio station near you, they may have something that you can use. Otherwise, look on ebay for a Keith Monks, or something like that.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Thanks Highfi...

The turntable has nothing to do with the output voltage, whatsoever. It's the cartridge that outputs the signal.

Yes; I suppose what I meant to ask was...what would the right cartridge match be for the Phono preamp of my 8555, as I understand it's not nearly as "robust" or versatile as the audiophile-grade equalized version they put in the A-9555 integrated...

If the tonearm wires have resistance, you'll never hear what you're supposed to, but they can be replaced (there's no point in going off the deep end on these and heavier is definitely worse than flexible). If you buy a moving magnet cartridge, you'll have no problems with signal level. If you buy a moving coil (MC), you'll need a moving coil preamp. Even a high output moving coil cartridge isn't as high as a moving magnet, so that's not necessarily the best solution unless the MC preamp has variable output.

So, what exactly are you saying here...that I should be looking for a MOVING MAGNET type to match with the 8555's Phono preamp?

As long as the albums are stored vertically, they should be fine. Not on an angle, but vertically.

But I'm looking for something to actually store them in to access them in my listening room -- and kind of show them off in a way, like the CD collection. I know there are vinyl storage solutions, but I was wondering if anyone here had any suggestions on good, effective variants.

I.e., I don't want to continue just leaving them in my closet, against the walls...

As far as cleaning them, that may not be easy if you want to use a really good machine. However, if you have a college or classical radio station near you, they may have something that you can use. Otherwise, look on ebay for a Keith Monks, or something like that.

As I said, I don't want to go the expensive cleaning machine route -- something superior in the fluid/cleaner liquid realm.

 

[3db]

Thanks Highfi...



Yes; I suppose what I meant to ask was...what would the right cartridge match be for the Phono preamp of my 8555, as I understand it's not nearly as "robust" or versatile as the audiophile-grade equalized version they put in the A-9555 integrated...



So, what exactly are you saying here...that I should be looking for a MOVING MAGNET type to match with the 8555's Phono preamp?



But I'm looking for something to actually store them in to access them in my listening room -- and kind of show them off in a way, like the CD collection. I know there are vinyl storage solutions, but I was wondering if anyone here had any suggestions on good, effective variants.

I.e., I don't want to continue just leaving them in my closet, against the walls...



As I said, I don't want to go the expensive cleaning machine route -- something superior in the fluid/cleaner liquid realm.

I can't think of any mid priced A/V receiver that can accept a moving coil cartridge. That takes more amplification than the more common moving magnet cartridge.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

I can't think of any mid priced A/V receiver that can accept a moving coil cartridge. That takes more amplification than the more common moving magnet cartridge.

Not sure if this matters in the context we're talking, but the 8555 model I am referencing in my system is a stereo two-channel receiver, not an A/V receiver...

Still, I think the essence you're getting at here is the "mid-price" equipment level...

 

[TLS Guy]

I am still considering the Technics SL1200 as was suggested by many here, but I just haven't had the opportunity to get up enough scratch for it yet -- before I look into getting perhaps a gently used one, I have some questions for you vinylphiles out there...

1. Can the SL1200's output voltage match the Phono input of my Onkyo TX-8555? Will it be okay to plug this table into this receiver?

2. Can anyone lead me in the right direction for LP storage? I have a ridiculous amount of albums and 12" singles (left over from a previous life as a mobile DJ) but I need somewhere to store them in my 2-channel room. Right now, they're in a closet in my office, stacked in alphabetical order against the walls; can someone recommend a site or product that is ideal for LP and 12" organization?

3. Can anyone recommend a good vinyl cleaning solution that's EASY -- such as via a liquid or fluid/brush? I don't want to do the whole expensive cleaning machine; is there something that's recommended that I can apply to reduce some of the popping on older LPs and lift some of the dirt and grime? Are there any affordable record cleaning machines, and how do they work?

Thanks in advance, fellow 'holics...

The cartridge is the only factor affecting the output of the turntable.

As far as cleaning and storage is concerned. Here are my rules that have kept my LPs flat and largely noise free for over half a century.

Unfortunately those types of wet cleaners do more harm than good. They just drive the dirt deeper in the grooves where it makes more noise.

The best simple protection is a Cecil E. Watts Dust bug. They come up on eBay now and again.

After that there is nothing in between until you get to powerful expensive vacuum cleaners, like the Keith Monks, Loricraft etc.

Prevention is the most important route to quiet LP surfaces. Always use the liner. Liner opening and jacket opening always 90 degrees rotation apart.

Never touch the playing surface.

Keep the turntable mat clean.

Never leave the record on the turntable when not playing. Return to jacket right away.

Play every time with the Cecil E. Watts Dust Bug.

Store perfectly upright with gentle pressure.

That way your LPs will be good for life, assuming you use a good arm, turntable and cartridge properly aligned and set up, with a stylus in good condition.

Those are my rules and they work.

Since you have a lot of albums you are a good candidate to own a turntable or two.

I should point out there is nothing wrong with good belt drive turntables, in fact they may be better than direct drive. However as long as a turntable has speed variation less than can be detected by the human ear, does not rumble and has a non resonant turntable, the engineering of the drive is of no crucial importance.

Arm and cartridge choice are crucial. The arm on the Technics is not of the top drawer by a long shot. It will not take an SME arm. Choosing a turntable that can have an SME arm fitted at a later date is a nice upgrade.

Always get the best cartridge you can afford.

Don't hesitate to explore good vintage equipment. It is pure bunk that LP playback was not understood in the heyday of the LP.

All my playback equipment is vintage and you are very hard pressed to tell it from the best CDs.

 

[3db]

Not sure if this matters in the context we're talking, but the 8555 model I am referencing in my system is a stereo two-channel receiver, not an A/V receiver...

Still, I think the essence you're getting at here is the "mid-price" equipment level...

Thats what I'm referring too...entry to mid level equipment generally do not come equipped to handle a moving coil cartridge's output.

I have a Ymaha A/V recevier which plays double duty as my two channel rig and my HT system. It has an phono stage which only accepts the outputs from moving magnet cartridges. It works rather well and I'mn pleased with the sound I get.

 

[highfigh]

Thats what I'm referring too...entry to mid level equipment generally do not come equipped to handle a moving coil cartridge's output.

I have a Yamaha A/V recevier which plays double duty as my two channel rig and my HT system. It has an phono stage which only accepts the outputs from moving magnet cartridges. It works rather well and I'm pleased with the sound I get.

Entry level equipment shouldn't have a MC preamp- it wouldn't be good enough to do it justice. Mid-priced equipment, OTOH, has had MC preamps and some were pretty decent. I have a Sony TA-F6B (integrated amp), a model that was made between '73 and '78, with a good MC section and my Sony TA-F500ES (integrated amp) has one, too. My first MC was an AT-30E and I moved up to a Denon 103d a couple of years later. Neither had a list price much over $600, although the $610 in '78 dollars is more than $2000 now and that would get a pretty good piece.

 

[3db]

Entry level equipment shouldn't have a MC preamp- it wouldn't be good enough to do it justice. Mid-priced equipment, OTOH, has had MC preamps and some were pretty decent. I have a Sony TA-F6B (integrated amp), a model that was made between '73 and '78, with a good MC section and my Sony TA-F500ES (integrated amp) has one, too. My first MC was an AT-30E and I moved up to a Denon 103d a couple of years later. Neither had a list price much over $600, although the $610 in '78 dollars is more than $2000 now and that would get a pretty good piece.

Yep... i thought you forgot to factor inflation or deflation depending on which way you look it.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Okay Guys,

I don't want this thread to turn into a debate regarding which of us have entry level, mid fi, high fi or audiophile grade gear and who thinks what of it -- I like my TX-8555 and would like to get an A-9555 integrated (which also has a rather impressive equalized phono stage) if I could, but that's not possible right now, so let's continue discussing the vinyl questions I had and the phono stage of my more-than-decent-in-my-opinion (approaching hi-fi if you ask me) 8555...

First -- so, it's been established that I need a moving magnet or other type of cart to use with the 8555's phono input? Based on what the receiver will accept, what cart would be recommended to pair up with on the Technics 1200?

Now, with regard to VINYL STORAGE -- does anyone have any links or ideas for/to products that effectively hold LPs; like bins or something along those lines? I don't want to keep them in my closet, lined up against the walls...

Also, with record cleaner...anyone have any ideas for good cleaning solutions which can get rid of some surface dirt and cut down on some of the pops and crackles on older vinyl?

 

[TLS Guy]

Okay Guys,

I don't want this thread to turn into a debate regarding which of us have entry level, mid fi, high fi or audiophile grade gear and who thinks what of it -- I like my TX-8555 and would like to get an A-9555 integrated (which also has a rather impressive equalized phono stage) if I could, but that's not possible right now, so let's continue discussing the vinyl questions I had and the phono stage of my more-than-decent-in-my-opinion (approaching hi-fi if you ask me) 8555...

First -- so, it's been established that I need a moving magnet or other type of cart to use with the 8555's phono input? Based on what the receiver will accept, what cart would be recommended to pair up with on the Technics 1200?

Now, with regard to VINYL STORAGE -- does anyone have any links or ideas for/to products that effectively hold LPs; like bins or something along those lines? I don't want to keep them in my closet, lined up against the walls...

Also, with record cleaner...anyone have any ideas for good cleaning solutions which can get rid of some surface dirt and cut down on some of the pops and crackles on older vinyl?

As I explained before any wet cleaning what ever the fluid will do more harm than good without a vacuum system.

The best is by Keith Monks, however they are very expensive. Others in the UK are Loricraft and the budget Moth. Most machines are are UK made. However there is an American firm, Nitty Gritty, that has been around for years, that does make affordable vacuum machines, that will do a reasonable job on discs other than those severely fouled.

These are cleaning machines on offer from the Needle Doctor. Needle Doctor has been run by Jerry Raskin for many years and is top notch.

I would wait and see how bad your disc are. Since you don't have a Dust Bug, I would use the Hunts Brush dry before playing each side and see how you get on.

If your records are very noisy, then I would recommend you consider the purchase of a Nitty Gritty machine.

As I pointed out in this thread, when it comes to LP care obsessional prevention of the records getting dirty is superior to any cleaning method.

As far as cartridges are concerned we need a budget. I would recommend a moving magnet cartridge from Shure or Ortofon. If you are strapped then the Audio Technicas are cheap and cheerful but you can do better. Needle doctor has a huge inventory of cartridges in all price ranges.

There are some high output moving coil cartridges, principally by Goldring and Denon that can be connected to a 47 k ohm RIAA equalized input. However most moving coils are low output types that need a different input. The stylus is not replaceable by the user in moving coils so I would avoid them as a neophyte.

As far as storage is concerned this is problematic. Records are heavy and therefore the racks have to be substantial. This means they are relatively costly. You don't want cheap storage racks. Here is one source. For this reason DIY is attractive, that has been my approach. You could have a local carpenter or cabinet shop build them for you. Custom is best as you can integrate the racks in your home better.

It goes without saying that turntables are not plug and play. Careful rigorous set up is essential, or you will get bad results and damage your records. The turntable must be on a firm non resonant surface, that is perfectly level.

Now if you are intent on getting started on the vinyl road, it is time for you to jump in. Owning a turntable and playing LPs has very little in common with playing CDs. Regular checks to make sure the set up has not wandered are important. I grew up in the age of the LP. They came to market when I was one year old. I bought my first LP when I was seven, and I still have it. LPs were my principal music source for thirty years. So I do know something about spinning vinyl.

 

[Cristofori]

Nice to see you again Pearlcorders701,

Still looking at that Technics TT Huh?

I understand you don't have money falling out of your rear end, and you obviously are not looking to buy accessories that are close to the same price or more than the TT you want, so here's my advice:

1. One solution for storage is to buy the plastic corrugated LP boxes from Bags Unlimited http://www.bagsunlimited.com/cart/browse.asp?subcat=14

You can put your LP's in these, then store them on their narrow side in a strong, steel shelving system that will fit them. But don't buy one specifically made for LP's, or you will pay through the roof. Get a measuring tape and find a strong steel rack that will fit two to three boxes across at a hardware store or something. It may not be pretty, but it will work. Make sure you buy the PLASTIC LP boxes, not the cardboard corrugated ones, which won't last nearly as long. Using these boxes and the poly jacket sleeves, your LP's will be well protected.

2. As far as a Dust Bug goes, that would be a great add-on, but you don't have to wait for some rare pricey "Cecil B." model to come ebay. Here's another dust bug currently being made http://www.turntableneedles.com/Nostatic-Arm-Kit_p_1706.html

3. The whole cleaning thing with LP's is really over done, as the stylus will push most of the dust aside (assuming your LP's are clean and NM to begin with), Static is another issue that can cause noise as well. Some pops and clicks you hear may not be the vinyl or dust itself at all, but static build up. There are anti-static devices designed for LP's, but I've never tried one. I simply ignore the occasional minor imperfections I sometimes get with an LP. I understand and accept that it's not a perfect medium. Although there are many things you can (usually expensive) to make it close to perfect.

As far as cleaners go, a vacuum machine really is the best way to go. The VPI is one of the more affordable ones that works great. Of course, the best way is to have LP's that are in NM condition that don't really need cleaning in the first place. You can just use a good carbon fiber dry bush on these.

3. As others have mentioned on here, you simply cannot skimp on the cartridge. Trust us on this. But you don't need to spend a fortune to get a good one. The Audio-Technia AT440mla is a fine cartridge for under $200, and you can replace the stylus. The Denon DL-110 is highly regarded here and probably a better cartridge, but being a low output moving coil design, the stylus cannot be replaced (I think) once it wears out.

All in all, the world of LP playback does involve some effort and maintenance, and at first can be a bit expensive and time consuming. But once you have everything in place and you know what your doing, the rewards can be great. At least in terms of all the interesting, obscure, and cheap vinyl you can find!