Of Tubes and Boutique Cables

[timetohunt]

Wow, its really been a long time since I checked out Audioholics. When I was putting together my system I really learned a lot here - more than anywhere else. We got down into the bits and bytes in some of those posts.

Anyway - no changes in the system. I've had no time to even listen to much music. I have been making music actually, and it had me thinking about audio gear and how it relates to the kinds of electronics musicians buy. I had been away from playing for awhile (bass & guitar), but I'm back, full force. Being where I am now has actually solidified some of my past beliefs about home audio. Those two topics that get hotly debated so often - Tubes and Cables.
I have been checking out tons of gear over the past year or so almost like I was when i was trying to figure out how to get the best sound in my home system.

I will briefly state my findings.

1. On Tube equipment: Great for the Musician who wants to color his sound a certain way. Especially if you are not using a lot of electronics and effects, the tube could be your golden tone. Old tube amps very often cost more than brand new tube amps. A guitarist may be trying to reach back into the past and grab a unique type of sound that was intrinsic in a particular brand and model. When he/she is ready to play its all miked up and recorded. With the microphone a foot away from the speaker cone. Sometimes that microphone itself may be connected to a tube device of some kind. All of this to "Make the Sounds" we want to hear in the end.
Tubes can be a worthy tool for certain musicians.

Tubes For home audio: Hogwash for this application. Why? Its here we attempt to "Reproduce" the sounds that have been recorded, not color them. Especially if the media is all digital anyway. Even if its not CDs or DVDA, even if its vinyl my bet goes to the cheaper solid state equipment versus the tube boutique for reproducing the sound that was originally recorded. And certainly possibly recorded with the use of tubed up instruments. So for musicians - tubes useful. For Home entertainment sound systems - just expensive.

Cables: I'll be brief. I have been around a lot of transactions where multi thousand dollar concert/club gear and instruments are traded. Not once have cables ever come up in regards to any level beyond stoutness. Musicians just seem to want good solid cables that will last and stand the rigors of the road. They do know cheap stuff and do try to avoid it, only pretty much for its tendancy to break sooner rather than later. You want a good 25' connect from your guitar to your amp, $75 seems pretty high end. So you get that cable and go with it. I have not heard a single musician talking about how that new Acme cable of his lit the show on fire. Or how this new $100 per foot cable really made the PA system realize its full potential. Nah....

So just like home gear. Maybe you want something built more robustly but we aint buyin into that silver whatever at ten grand for a set of Eight foot cables. By the time it comes from my guitar into your stereo and out to your ears, how many grades of cable (inside the boxes too) has it passed?

On being more at the making end of sound these days rather than the receiver of sound, these are my thoughts. Yours?

 

[TLS Guy]

Wow, its really been a long time since I checked out Audioholics. When I was putting together my system I really learned a lot here - more than anywhere else. We got down into the bits and bytes in some of those posts.

Anyway - no changes in the system. I've had no time to even listen to much music. I have been making music actually, and it had me thinking about audio gear and how it relates to the kinds of electronics musicians buy. I had been away from playing for awhile (bass & guitar), but I'm back, full force. Being where I am now has actually solidified some of my past beliefs about home audio. Those two topics that get hotly debated so often - Tubes and Cables.
I have been checking out tons of gear over the past year or so almost like I was when i was trying to figure out how to get the best sound in my home system.

I will briefly state my findings.

1. On Tube equipment: Great for the Musician who wants to color his sound a certain way. Especially if you are not using a lot of electronics and effects, the tube could be your golden tone. Old tube amps very often cost more than brand new tube amps. A guitarist may be trying to reach back into the past and grab a unique type of sound that was intrinsic in a particular brand and model. When he/she is ready to play its all miked up and recorded. With the microphone a foot away from the speaker cone. Sometimes that microphone itself may be connected to a tube device of some kind. All of this to "Make the Sounds" we want to hear in the end.
Tubes can be a worthy tool for certain musicians.

Tubes For home audio: Hogwash for this application. Why? Its here we attempt to "Reproduce" the sounds that have been recorded, not color them. Especially if the media is all digital anyway. Even if its not CDs or DVDA, even if its vinyl my bet goes to the cheaper solid state equipment versus the tube boutique for reproducing the sound that was originally recorded. And certainly possibly recorded with the use of tubed up instruments. So for musicians - tubes useful. For Home entertainment sound systems - just expensive.

Cables: I'll be brief. I have been around a lot of transactions where multi thousand dollar concert/club gear and instruments are traded. Not once have cables ever come up in regards to any level beyond stoutness. Musicians just seem to want good solid cables that will last and stand the rigors of the road. They do know cheap stuff and do try to avoid it, only pretty much for its tendancy to break sooner rather than later. You want a good 25' connect from your guitar to your amp, $75 seems pretty high end. So you get that cable and go with it. I have not heard a single musician talking about how that new Acme cable of his lit the show on fire. Or how this new $100 per foot cable really made the PA system realize its full potential. Nah....

So just like home gear. Maybe you want something built more robustly but we aint buyin into that silver whatever at ten grand for a set of Eight foot cables. By the time it comes from my guitar into your stereo and out to your ears, how many grades of cable (inside the boxes too) has it passed?

On being more at the making end of sound these days rather than the receiver of sound, these are my thoughts. Yours?

I think you have summed the situation up well.

 

[lsiberian]

Wow, its really been a long time since I checked out Audioholics. When I was putting together my system I really learned a lot here - more than anywhere else. We got down into the bits and bytes in some of those posts.

Anyway - no changes in the system. I've had no time to even listen to much music. I have been making music actually, and it had me thinking about audio gear and how it relates to the kinds of electronics musicians buy. I had been away from playing for awhile (bass & guitar), but I'm back, full force. Being where I am now has actually solidified some of my past beliefs about home audio. Those two topics that get hotly debated so often - Tubes and Cables.
I have been checking out tons of gear over the past year or so almost like I was when i was trying to figure out how to get the best sound in my home system.

I will briefly state my findings.

1. On Tube equipment: Great for the Musician who wants to color his sound a certain way. Especially if you are not using a lot of electronics and effects, the tube could be your golden tone. Old tube amps very often cost more than brand new tube amps. A guitarist may be trying to reach back into the past and grab a unique type of sound that was intrinsic in a particular brand and model. When he/she is ready to play its all miked up and recorded. With the microphone a foot away from the speaker cone. Sometimes that microphone itself may be connected to a tube device of some kind. All of this to "Make the Sounds" we want to hear in the end.
Tubes can be a worthy tool for certain musicians.

Tubes For home audio: Hogwash for this application. Why? Its here we attempt to "Reproduce" the sounds that have been recorded, not color them. Especially if the media is all digital anyway. Even if its not CDs or DVDA, even if its vinyl my bet goes to the cheaper solid state equipment versus the tube boutique for reproducing the sound that was originally recorded. And certainly possibly recorded with the use of tubed up instruments. So for musicians - tubes useful. For Home entertainment sound systems - just expensive.

Cables: I'll be brief. I have been around a lot of transactions where multi thousand dollar concert/club gear and instruments are traded. Not once have cables ever come up in regards to any level beyond stoutness. Musicians just seem to want good solid cables that will last and stand the rigors of the road. They do know cheap stuff and do try to avoid it, only pretty much for its tendancy to break sooner rather than later. You want a good 25' connect from your guitar to your amp, $75 seems pretty high end. So you get that cable and go with it. I have not heard a single musician talking about how that new Acme cable of his lit the show on fire. Or how this new $100 per foot cable really made the PA system realize its full potential. Nah....

So just like home gear. Maybe you want something built more robustly but we aint buyin into that silver whatever at ten grand for a set of Eight foot cables. By the time it comes from my guitar into your stereo and out to your ears, how many grades of cable (inside the boxes too) has it passed?

On being more at the making end of sound these days rather than the receiver of sound, these are my thoughts. Yours?

I think when it comes to the things in between the hearer and the player/singer the two parts that matter most are the quality of the system converting the sound to an electric signal and converting the signal back to sound.

Everything in between should be as reliable as possible.

Mics and speakers should be as transparent as possible.

 

[timetohunt]

Interesting that you mention that. On the home side, where should the most money be placed ... Speakers. On the recording side.... Microphones. I'm not a recording expert but just as speakers are crucial to good sound... so are microphones to recording it. Funding those two components is most warranted. In my opinion. I actually know very little about microphones but its not lost on me how important those can be. And man, can microphones get expensive. Going way back, I think, outside of the sonic dynamics of the 'space' of the studio itself was the quality and selection of microphones it offered. Might be getting a little out of my league but it sure seems right.

 

[lsiberian]

Interesting that you mention that. On the home side, where should the most money be placed ... Speakers. On the recording side.... Microphones. I'm not a recording expert but just as speakers are crucial to good sound... so are microphones to recording it. Funding those two components is most warranted. In my opinion. I actually know very little about microphones but its not lost on me how important those can be. And man, can microphones get expensive. Going way back, I think, outside of the sonic dynamics of the 'space' of the studio itself was the quality and selection of microphones it offered. Might be getting a little out of my league but it sure seems right.

Microphones should always be selected by double blind testing only when it comes to sound quality.

this is because it's been demonstrated that many cheap microphones are indistinguishable from more expensive ones.

double blind testing is the best way to save your money.

However setting up the mic properly and selecting a good one are very important. The mix is also very important too.

Speakers are still the hardest thing to build.
However even with these DBT should always be used.

 

[adwilk]

On being more at the making end of sound these days rather than the receiver of sound, these are my thoughts. Yours?

I appreciate the post, very insightful and relevant. However, expensive cables and retro tube amps make the hobby what it is for some people. I don't buy into it, and understand that even with million dollar cables, a weak link exists somewhere. But for others, the infatuation doesn't exist solely on measurements and science. Its about "hearing" a difference or even just wanting to hear a difference that makes the hobby enjoyable.

These dynamics are ultimately what separate audiophiles. I know a guy very well that is much an audio buff as anybody I've ever met, here or away from cyberspace and he doesnt even own an SPL meter. Hes a gadget freak that likes listening to all the different ways sound can be produced rarely caring which one is accurate. You can't tell him he's wrong, he enjoys the hobby.

He owns crazy expensive cables and tube amps. He loves em and in his mind they were worth every penny just for the experience.

I like that both elements exist and I enjoy being somewhere in the middle. I like having the medium for listening to music and movies that I like and enjoy all the many variables.

 

[TLS Guy]

Interesting that you mention that. On the home side, where should the most money be placed ... Speakers. On the recording side.... Microphones. I'm not a recording expert but just as speakers are crucial to good sound... so are microphones to recording it. Funding those two components is most warranted. In my opinion. I actually know very little about microphones but its not lost on me how important those can be. And man, can microphones get expensive. Going way back, I think, outside of the sonic dynamics of the 'space' of the studio itself was the quality and selection of microphones it offered. Might be getting a little out of my league but it sure seems right.

Yes, microphones are crucial. They have to be robust, have flat response, and especially for classical recording very wide dynamic range and head room. It is this latter area that all cheap mics are wanting. A mic with 120db plus dynamic range will likely always be an expensive item.

The monitor loudspeakers however need as much attention as the microphones. The reason, is that you mix and balance to your speakers. It is pretty much impossible not to.

 

[highfigh]

I think when it comes to the things in between the hearer and the player/singer the two parts that matter most are the quality of the system converting the sound to an electric signal and converting the signal back to sound.

Everything in between should be as reliable as possible.

Mics and speakers should be as transparent as possible.

Mics are used for their sound, which is definitely not a sign that they're transparent. It's more a sign that they lend a quality to the sound of the instrument that most others don't. Vocal mics don't necessarily work on strings, percussion or a grand piano but mics used for some instruments don't work well for vocals, either. The way a mic "hears" is different from how we "hear" the sound from an instrument and it's through these differences that we come to consider a recording to sound one way or another. Also, mic placement techniques can be as personal to the person recording the instruments as anything. Listen to an ECM recording of piano (Keith Jarret, Lyle Mays, etc) and then listen to the same performer when someone else records them. Big difference.

Speakers are the interface between the rest of the system and the acoustic space, which means that they can be used to cause the reproduced sound to either work well, or not. An extremely bright speaker may sound great in an acoustically dead room but not in a room without any absorptive materials. What about a listener who has higher/lower acuity at certain frequencies- should they be forced to use "transparent" sounding speakers? I don't think so- I think they should pick a speaker that sounds good to them, regardless of what someone else thinks (unless they're Blose).

Just my opinion.

 

[highfigh]

Wow, its really been a long time since I checked out Audioholics. When I was putting together my system I really learned a lot here - more than anywhere else. We got down into the bits and bytes in some of those posts.

Anyway - no changes in the system. I've had no time to even listen to much music. I have been making music actually, and it had me thinking about audio gear and how it relates to the kinds of electronics musicians buy. I had been away from playing for awhile (bass & guitar), but I'm back, full force. Being where I am now has actually solidified some of my past beliefs about home audio. Those two topics that get hotly debated so often - Tubes and Cables.
I have been checking out tons of gear over the past year or so almost like I was when i was trying to figure out how to get the best sound in my home system.

I will briefly state my findings.

1. On Tube equipment: Great for the Musician who wants to color his sound a certain way. Especially if you are not using a lot of electronics and effects, the tube could be your golden tone. Old tube amps very often cost more than brand new tube amps. A guitarist may be trying to reach back into the past and grab a unique type of sound that was intrinsic in a particular brand and model. When he/she is ready to play its all miked up and recorded. With the microphone a foot away from the speaker cone. Sometimes that microphone itself may be connected to a tube device of some kind. All of this to "Make the Sounds" we want to hear in the end.
Tubes can be a worthy tool for certain musicians.

Tubes For home audio: Hogwash for this application. Why? Its here we attempt to "Reproduce" the sounds that have been recorded, not color them. Especially if the media is all digital anyway. Even if its not CDs or DVDA, even if its vinyl my bet goes to the cheaper solid state equipment versus the tube boutique for reproducing the sound that was originally recorded. And certainly possibly recorded with the use of tubed up instruments. So for musicians - tubes useful. For Home entertainment sound systems - just expensive.

Cables: I'll be brief. I have been around a lot of transactions where multi thousand dollar concert/club gear and instruments are traded. Not once have cables ever come up in regards to any level beyond stoutness. Musicians just seem to want good solid cables that will last and stand the rigors of the road. They do know cheap stuff and do try to avoid it, only pretty much for its tendancy to break sooner rather than later. You want a good 25' connect from your guitar to your amp, $75 seems pretty high end. So you get that cable and go with it. I have not heard a single musician talking about how that new Acme cable of his lit the show on fire. Or how this new $100 per foot cable really made the PA system realize its full potential. Nah....

So just like home gear. Maybe you want something built more robustly but we aint buyin into that silver whatever at ten grand for a set of Eight foot cables. By the time it comes from my guitar into your stereo and out to your ears, how many grades of cable (inside the boxes too) has it passed?

On being more at the making end of sound these days rather than the receiver of sound, these are my thoughts. Yours?

I generally agree but a tube amp for reproduction doesn't have to be tremendously expensive. The ones that are, usually have some "Its design came to me while I was hiking in the Himalayas" or "...during my alien abduction" mystique and that's just not necessary. Leo Fender used mostly existing design elements, with some tweaks, in the amps that are considered to be classics. The tube charts and schematics for these amps usually have some reference to "Patent No. xyz, Western Electric Co." and you know a Tweed amp sounds completely different from a Black Face amp.

Also, cables have been debated to death by musicians, but often, they're the kind who are in the "I'm a legend in my own bedroom" category. These people will jump through all kinds of hoops in their effort to sound exactly the same as their favorite player, without success. George L, Planet Waves, Mogami, Neutrik ends with Canare or Belden 8xxx cable, "I like the sound of the cheap coiled cords they used in the '60s most" get a lot of air time in forums but they seldom come with the same cost as high-end audio cables.

Some take the attitude of "Shut up and play yer guitar!", some use the sounds they get on that day with as little extra putzing as is necessary and some will go to every extreme possible, while trying to get some sound that can only be heard by them.

If the player is doing jingles and some goofball producer asks them to "make it sound like syrup dripping from a stack of pancakes" (an actual example I heard of), that's different.

 

[lsiberian]

Mics are used for their sound, which is definitely not a sign that they're transparent. It's more a sign that they lend a quality to the sound of the instrument that most others don't. Vocal mics don't necessarily work on strings, percussion or a grand piano but mics used for some instruments don't work well for vocals, either. The way a mic "hears" is different from how we "hear" the sound from an instrument and it's through these differences that we come to consider a recording to sound one way or another. Also, mic placement techniques can be as personal to the person recording the instruments as anything. Listen to an ECM recording of piano (Keith Jarret, Lyle Mays, etc) and then listen to the same performer when someone else records them. Big difference.

Speakers are the interface between the rest of the system and the acoustic space, which means that they can be used to cause the reproduced sound to either work well, or not. An extremely bright speaker may sound great in an acoustically dead room but not in a room without any absorptive materials. What about a listener who has higher/lower acuity at certain frequencies- should they be forced to use "transparent" sounding speakers? I don't think so- I think they should pick a speaker that sounds good to them, regardless of what someone else thinks (unless they're Blose).

Just my opinion.

Stinkin room and personal preferences

As long as the stuff is good enough(key word) then all that really matters is the music itself. that's our goal. Of course getting high on cables can be fun I admit.

Speaking on personal preferences I love a live sound. I come from the rock generation so I guess that's what pollutes me. I went and listened to speakers from a company TLS slammed and thought they sounded great. I'm still looking lol.

But TLS is right that good classical is the ultimate test. Though I must say Baroque music can be excellent for testing a system too.

 

[highfigh]

Stinkin room and personal preferences

As long as the stuff is good enough(key word) then all that really matters is the music itself. that's our goal. Of course getting high on cables can be fun I admit.

Speaking on personal preferences I love a live sound. I come from the rock generation so I guess that's what pollutes me. I went and listened to speakers from a company TLS slammed and thought they sounded great. I'm still looking lol.

But TLS is right that good classical is the ultimate test. Though I must say Baroque music can be excellent for testing a system too.

Personal preference can't be tossed out of the equation, though. What another person likes can and should be used as a point of reference for that person but everyone's hearing is different in some way, whether great or small. I see road crews without any hearing protection, on a regular basis. This is definitely OSHA territory too, since they're sometimes cutting concrete roads with dry saws. I can't stand hearing it from 100' and I can't understand how anyone can take that kind of SPL when they're operating the machine. It doesn't matter who is used for comparison- everyone has been exposed to noise or music that caused damage to their hearing, whether they're classical musicians/conductors, in a rock band, in construction or just sitting in their car while an ambulance passes their open window.

Re: "live sound"- there's a certain airiness in a large room when music is played, either through a PA, stereo or instruments and as the SPL increases, this can become a problem. Some speakers will capture the sound of the room where the recording took place and some just can't. A lot of this is due to the engineer/producer knowing how to get a good live sound. The song playing here now was recorded live at a club here in MKE and while it sounds live, it still sounds a lot better than a couple of mics placed at some point in the room. He captured a lot of the room's spaciousness and has recorded in MKE for decades.

I'm hardly an expert in speaker construction but I did car audio for a long time and had a lot of customers who were very happy with the sound of their system. Some of these placed very high in the IASCA competitions in the class with the most participants (501 Watts-1000 Watts). This was a regional IASCA competition in Chicago and they weren't looking for boom/crash, either. I never got the chance to tweak the one that won 3rd, but he said he was going for fun, not even thinking of trying to win.

I think classical music is a great test for speakers when the listener will be using classical as their preferred listening material but for someone who never does, it makes no sense. Again, IMO.

 

[lsiberian]

I'm hardly an expert in speaker construction but I did car audio for a long time and had a lot of customers who were very happy with the sound of their system. Some of these placed very high in the IASCA competitions in the class with the most participants (501 Watts-1000 Watts). This was a regional IASCA competition in Chicago and they weren't looking for boom/crash, either. I never got the chance to tweak the one that won 3rd, but he said he was going for fun, not even thinking of trying to win.

I think the facts speak to your expertise.

 

[highfigh]

I think the facts speak to your expertise.

I don't know- that was in cars and their acoustics are vastly different (lots of bumps, odd shapes and cloth to absorb sound). I do like the speakers I built, though. It's a good sign when I don't keep messing with something to make it better. They're not incredible but they do some things really well, to my ears.