Odd issue with Zone 2. Audio is weak and seems out of phase TSR-700/RX-V6A

S

stevestrike

Audiophyte
Background: Yamaha support says that there is something wrong with my receiver, but I would prefer to avoid the hassle if possible. I'm hoping someone here with the same unit would do a quick test of their speakers in Zone 2 to confirm these work, or maybe my unit really is having issues. Thanks in advance for your help!

Issue:
New setup with a Yamaha TSR-700, with two Klipsch in-ceiling speakers for music in the kitchen on Zone 2 . The amp is configured for 5.1.2+1Zone, and running the latest firmware from Yamaha. I first noticed that the audio in Zone 2 was much lower/weaker than expected, almost as if the speakers were out of phase. I thought it would be a simple fix by swapping one of the speakers L/R, but that did not improve the sound.

With the MusicCast app, I listened while shifting the balance back and forth between L & R. Either individual speaker was much louder (approx 6dB!) and full sounding than when using the pair in center balance. I thought maybe the amp was stressed for power, so I adjusted Zone 1--turning it off, mute, lowered volume--it made no difference at all.

Thinking the speakers or the wiring might be the issue, I moved the Atmos speakers (same models) to the Zone 2 output and tested again. The Atmos speakers now exhibited the same issue as the kitchen speakers; weak sound when both were playing, and becoming much louder/fuller when only one was selected.

To my mind, all of this rules out the speakers, the wiring, and the location in the ceiling. I'm stumped. Is there something wrong, or is this a limitation of the product? I can't see how Zone 2 is usable if this is expected behavior.

If you can help me test, please play audio to Zone 2 and slide the balance from Center to Left/Right (this can be done in the music cast app, or from the device webpage under Sound > Volume > Balance. Does the single speaker sound much louder and better with more bass than when playing in stereo pair? It does not matter the source material, or what mode your the receiver is in (party mode, DSP etc..) Many thanks
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
What are the sensitivity specs of the various speakers in your system, particularly main zone vs zone 2?
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
Also how long of a run is to the speakers and what gauge of wire?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I think Yamaha are correct. It is a strange fault, I can not explain. I think you would have to see the circuit to understand how it could happen. However there seems to be some sort of antiphase cross feed on zone 2. You will only solve that fault on the test bench with a full battery of test equipment.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
Background: Yamaha support says that there is something wrong with my receiver, but I would prefer to avoid the hassle if possible. I'm hoping someone here with the same unit would do a quick test of their speakers in Zone 2 to confirm these work, or maybe my unit really is having issues. Thanks in advance for your help!

Issue:
New setup with a Yamaha TSR-700, with two Klipsch in-ceiling speakers for music in the kitchen on Zone 2 . The amp is configured for 5.1.2+1Zone, and running the latest firmware from Yamaha. I first noticed that the audio in Zone 2 was much lower/weaker than expected, almost as if the speakers were out of phase. I thought it would be a simple fix by swapping one of the speakers L/R, but that did not improve the sound.

With the MusicCast app, I listened while shifting the balance back and forth between L & R. Either individual speaker was much louder (approx 6dB!) and full sounding than when using the pair in center balance. I thought maybe the amp was stressed for power, so I adjusted Zone 1--turning it off, mute, lowered volume--it made no difference at all.

Thinking the speakers or the wiring might be the issue, I moved the Atmos speakers (same models) to the Zone 2 output and tested again. The Atmos speakers now exhibited the same issue as the kitchen speakers; weak sound when both were playing, and becoming much louder/fuller when only one was selected.

To my mind, all of this rules out the speakers, the wiring, and the location in the ceiling. I'm stumped. Is there something wrong, or is this a limitation of the product? I can't see how Zone 2 is usable if this is expected behavior.

If you can help me test, please play audio to Zone 2 and slide the balance from Center to Left/Right (this can be done in the music cast app, or from the device webpage under Sound > Volume > Balance. Does the single speaker sound much louder and better with more bass than when playing in stereo pair? It does not matter the source material, or what mode your the receiver is in (party mode, DSP etc..) Many thanks
Do you have a cat and/or dog? Check the speaker wires for evidence of being chewed.

Do you have a volume control near the AVR, for the kitchen? Make sure it's wired correctly. The fact that one speaker plays louder than both could be a polarity problem, especially if something was changed recently.

When did this start?
 
S

stevestrike

Audiophyte
Thank you for all the support. Here are answers to the questions:

Re: Sensitivity level
Speakers match what is in the main zone. Front Presence and Zone 2 are both in-ceiling (Klipsch CDT-5800-C II I believe). The fronts and center are all Klipsch that match that series

Re: Cable Run
The cable run is moderately far, around 50-75ft and the wire gauge is slim. To eliminate the speaker wire or distance as a vaiable, I moved my FP speaker (same model & in-ceiling) over to the Zone 2 output on the AVR. The speakers behaved the same as the Zone 2--weak sounding audio while balanced L/R, and getting much stronger as you moved the balance further along to full L or R. I believe this rules out the speakers themselves, or the wiring as the culprit.

Re: Cat or dog, Volume control
Yes, but these are all in-ceiling so no chewing from them. There is no volume control in the kitchen, just a builder installed run of wire that goes from the AVR up through the attic and back down to the kitchen. I installed the wiring for the living room myself.

This is a new system for me, so I guess it's been present since I first put it in about a month ago. It was one of the last things I noticed after finally getting everything setup, calibrated, etc.. I was playing all-channel stereo and enabled party mode, enjoying the system, with SPL levels around 78-83dB and noticed that the sound was very mediocre in Zone 2, even while standing directly under and between the two speakers--9ft ceiling, approx 10 ft apart.

My next test might be to hook my fronts or even some other bookshelf speakers of a different brand to the Zone 2 output and see if they sound the same way?

Thank again!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thank you for all the support. Here are answers to the questions:

Re: Sensitivity level
Speakers match what is in the main zone. Front Presence and Zone 2 are both in-ceiling (Klipsch CDT-5800-C II I believe). The fronts and center are all Klipsch that match that series

Re: Cable Run
The cable run is moderately far, around 50-75ft and the wire gauge is slim. To eliminate the speaker wire or distance as a vaiable, I moved my FP speaker (same model & in-ceiling) over to the Zone 2 output on the AVR. The speakers behaved the same as the Zone 2--weak sounding audio while balanced L/R, and getting much stronger as you moved the balance further along to full L or R. I believe this rules out the speakers themselves, or the wiring as the culprit.

Re: Cat or dog, Volume control
Yes, but these are all in-ceiling so no chewing from them. There is no volume control in the kitchen, just a builder installed run of wire that goes from the AVR up through the attic and back down to the kitchen. I installed the wiring for the living room myself.

This is a new system for me, so I guess it's been present since I first put it in about a month ago. It was one of the last things I noticed after finally getting everything setup, calibrated, etc.. I was playing all-channel stereo and enabled party mode, enjoying the system, with SPL levels around 78-83dB and noticed that the sound was very mediocre in Zone 2, even while standing directly under and between the two speakers--9ft ceiling, approx 10 ft apart.

My next test might be to hook my fronts or even some other bookshelf speakers of a different brand to the Zone 2 output and see if they sound the same way?

Thank again!
So, the builder installed it! There is no limit to their idiocy in matters like this. You need to test that wire with a multimeter and make sure there are no odd interconnections between the cables. If they have committed gross malpractice, then they could well have done permanent damage to your zone 2 out.
 
S

stevestrike

Audiophyte
I will check the wires going to Zone 2, but I'm having doubts about that being the issue at this point. Any paticular instructions on how to test what you are talking about? Are we just looking for continuity between wires where there should be none?

I ran a series of tests today by swapping out speakers in Zone 2:

1. Main Front speakers connected = Same issue
2. Extra bookshelf speakers (different brand) = Same issue
3. I tried various settings adjustment on AVR... DSP programs/2ch Stereo/All-Ch Stereo, Tone Control Auto/Manual/Bypass, Extra Bass on/off, Monaural on/off, and Enhancer on/off = All settings showed the same issue

Being in the correct listening position when I tested the Front Speakers on Zone 2 really emphasized how "bad" the issue is. I will return this unit to Costco. If the replacement unit has the same issue with Zone 2, then I would have to look at another brand other than the Yammy. Fingers crossed...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I will check the wires going to Zone 2, but I'm having doubts about that being the issue at this point. Any paticular instructions on how to test what you are talking about? Are we just looking for continuity between wires where there should be none?

I ran a series of tests today by swapping out speakers in Zone 2:

1. Main Front speakers connected = Same issue
2. Extra bookshelf speakers (different brand) = Same issue
3. I tried various settings adjustment on AVR... DSP programs/2ch Stereo/All-Ch Stereo, Tone Control Auto/Manual/Bypass, Extra Bass on/off, Monaural on/off, and Enhancer on/off = All settings showed the same issue

Being in the correct listening position when I tested the Front Speakers on Zone 2 really emphasized how "bad" the issue is. I will return this unit to Costco. If the replacement unit has the same issue with Zone 2, then I would have to look at another brand other than the Yammy. Fingers crossed...
Check for any cross connections between the cables, even high resistance ones. Check the DC resistance of the cables, and make sure each one goes to the correct speaker terminal. You will have to remove the speakers to check this properly. The other issue with wiring is that nails can get placed through them which causes no end of trouble. You might want to run new and better cables yourself. I suspect there is something wrong with the cable installation as the builder did it. Nails in the wrong place are a high probability as they are common after builder installs.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I will check the wires going to Zone 2, but I'm having doubts about that being the issue at this point. Any paticular instructions on how to test what you are talking about? Are we just looking for continuity between wires where there should be none?

I ran a series of tests today by swapping out speakers in Zone 2:

1. Main Front speakers connected = Same issue
2. Extra bookshelf speakers (different brand) = Same issue
3. I tried various settings adjustment on AVR... DSP programs/2ch Stereo/All-Ch Stereo, Tone Control Auto/Manual/Bypass, Extra Bass on/off, Monaural on/off, and Enhancer on/off = All settings showed the same issue

Being in the correct listening position when I tested the Front Speakers on Zone 2 really emphasized how "bad" the issue is. I will return this unit to Costco. If the replacement unit has the same issue with Zone 2, then I would have to look at another brand other than the Yammy. Fingers crossed...
It hit me in the shower this morning what may be the cause of you kitchen speaker problem.

So, what are those Klipsch ceiling speakers? I suspect you may have installed ceiling speakers designed for 70 and 100 volt audio distribution systems and NOT receivers.
Klipsch make both 4 to 8 ohm speakers and ceiling speakers for 70 to 100 volt systems. When you describe would occur using speakers designed for 70 volt systems. When makes me suspicious is the small gauge wiring as these systems are wired with narrow bell wire type gauge cables, not suitable for the usual domestic speakers.
 
CajunLB

CajunLB

Senior Audioholic
Seems simple enough to swap the cables of your mains to zone 2 on the receiver,then listen. If it still sounds weak it’s the receiver if it sounds good it’s the cables going to zone 2. @TLS Guy also has a point about Commercial 70/100 volt speakers.
 
S

stevestrike

Audiophyte
This seems like a great community of folks, and I do appreciate everyone's time & response to my issue.

1. I ran bookshelf speakers (and my main front L/R) direct to Zone 2, short speaker cables and no builder BS. The issue was just as bad, so I don't believe it is the speakers, the wiring, 70v/8ohm, etc. The ONLY thing that is constant at this point is the AVR, and the output of Zone 2

It hit me in the shower this morning what may be the cause of you kitchen speaker problem.
So, what are those Klipsch ceiling speakers? I suspect you may have installed ceiling speakers designed for 70 and 100 volt audio distribution systems and NOT receivers.
Lol @TLS Guy this cracks me up! My brain works the same way sometimes. The speakers are Klipsch CDT-5800-C II which are definitely 8ohm, and sound pretty darn good for their purpose I'd say.

Today I returned the AVR to Costco. They are all out of the TSR-700 and nothing on their website either! Is it sold out, discontinued, or otherwise unavailable? The next Yamaha model up that I'd like is 3x the cost so probably not.

They had the Denon s760h, but it only has 7 speaker outputs and cannot do what the TSR-700 can (5.1.2 Atmos + Zone 2)

Ah well. I'll be researching and shopping for a replacement. Maybe I can find another Yamaha and I'll post back. Or if anyone has recommendations I'm all ears.

Best,
Steve
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
This seems like a great community of folks, and I do appreciate everyone's time & response to my issue.

1. I ran bookshelf speakers (and my main front L/R) direct to Zone 2, short speaker cables and no builder BS. The issue was just as bad, so I don't believe it is the speakers, the wiring, 70v/8ohm, etc. The ONLY thing that is constant at this point is the AVR, and the output of Zone 2



Lol @TLS Guy this cracks me up! My brain works the same way sometimes. The speakers are Klipsch CDT-5800-C II which are definitely 8ohm, and sound pretty darn good for their purpose I'd say.

Today I returned the AVR to Costco. They are all out of the TSR-700 and nothing on their website either! Is it sold out, discontinued, or otherwise unavailable? The next Yamaha model up that I'd like is 3x the cost so probably not.

They had the Denon s760h, but it only has 7 speaker outputs and cannot do what the TSR-700 can (5.1.2 Atmos + Zone 2)

Ah well. I'll be researching and shopping for a replacement. Maybe I can find another Yamaha and I'll post back. Or if anyone has recommendations I'm all ears.

Best,
Steve
In that case it must be the AVR. It is a very strange fault indeed though, and I have trouble working out, how such a fault could happen. It is a pity you returned that receiver. You should have sent it in for warranty repair. Yamaha apparently have a good warranty repair service. Electronic gear is very scarce at the moment and prices rising fast. You are going to have to pay a lot more for the replacement, and that cost is going to continue to rise fast. At this time my advice to all, is to look after your gear very carefully. If you have to buy, now is the time to spend extra and buy for quality. Now is NOT the time to buy poorer gear to maintain price.

If you are not going to listen in the kitchen at the same time as the main system, you could have solved the issue with a speaker selector switch in the right and left mains. You still could do that, if you have to buy a replacement AVR with no powered zone II. You could also get a receiver with just zone 2 preouts and use an external amp.

The other issue, is if you will really like to power speakers in a room where you can't control them. That is not handy. I did the same thing in a house I built back in 1977. I have done three houses since, and never did that again, and put in stand alone systems where I wanted audio. Here in our last house I built in 2019, there are three discreet systems. That is the high road, but a far better solution.

If you just returned that receiver today, you might want to see if you can retrieve it, in view of the current situation, which I don't expect to improve anytime soon.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
This seems like a great community of folks, and I do appreciate everyone's time & response to my issue.

1. I ran bookshelf speakers (and my main front L/R) direct to Zone 2, short speaker cables and no builder BS. The issue was just as bad, so I don't believe it is the speakers, the wiring, 70v/8ohm, etc. The ONLY thing that is constant at this point is the AVR, and the output of Zone 2



Lol @TLS Guy this cracks me up! My brain works the same way sometimes. The speakers are Klipsch CDT-5800-C II which are definitely 8ohm, and sound pretty darn good for their purpose I'd say.

Today I returned the AVR to Costco. They are all out of the TSR-700 and nothing on their website either! Is it sold out, discontinued, or otherwise unavailable? The next Yamaha model up that I'd like is 3x the cost so probably not.

They had the Denon s760h, but it only has 7 speaker outputs and cannot do what the TSR-700 can (5.1.2 Atmos + Zone 2)

Ah well. I'll be researching and shopping for a replacement. Maybe I can find another Yamaha and I'll post back. Or if anyone has recommendations I'm all ears.

Best,
Steve
Costco’s stock comes and goes. The Denon, Onkyo and Yamaha models they sell pop in and out of the warehouse and website often. I tried all three of them and kept the Onkyo TX-NR6050. It has a 5.1.2 + Zone Speakers setting comparable to the Yamaha’s 5.1.2 + Zone 2 setting.

Yamaha RX-V6A/TSR-700:
0479206C-E238-4541-9FEF-52BFAB4323CB.jpeg

Onkyo TX-NR6050:
35A8C955-BA33-4A87-98C6-359F8421757D.jpeg
 
S

stevestrike

Audiophyte
I know that I could have sent the unit back to Yamaha, but this kind of thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth and it's better for me to make a clean break. I think the TSR-700 is a great little AVR, (but now in no small part due to this forum) I feel like I might want more. I'm sure no one here can relate to that feeling.

So maybe I'll try the Onkyo. Maybe I'll upgrade to an Aventage? Or even wait for the new X3800H? Yeah, I know they are totally different leagues, but I've got the bug
 
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