Objective Look @ Low Cost vs High Cost Receiver

[itschris]

How are you hooking up your cd player with your current setup?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yeah... but I'm not talking just about range of sound. I'm talking about what's in between. When you hear a cymbal for instance, does it sound like it does if you were in the room? Clearly, speakers, room, the recording, everything, plays a part, but if it can't be reproduced correctly, how can even the finest speaker fix that? Maybe that's my point. Looking at each part of the chain, the cd player, the intereconnects, the receiver or pre/pro, the amp, the speakers, the room... if each piece takes an indistinguishable piece of the quality out on it's own, does the end result added up produce a sound that is definably or undefinably inferior (both are real descriptions in my book) than if those small inpurities did not exist?

I'm not sure either way.

But I'm definately not sure that every piece of gear is indistinguishable from the next as some like to suggest around here.

Well, whatever signal the mic sends downstream, will get recorded well enough so you will have a hard time differentiating at the end.
The mic has limitations what it picks up in space.
As to the outcome, John Dunlavy used to demonstrate live versus speaker reproductions, DBT Not a comforting outcome for 'golden ears.'
And, he was not the first to do so as others further in the past had similar results.
But, again, I am just the bearer of historical data

Who knows how much better hearing will evolve over time

 

[mtrycrafts]

Why do you insist on bringing up specs over and over and over? Specs are often incomplete, flawed, scewed, or outright false and for you to rely so heavy on marketing numbers makes no sense, why do you do this all the time?

Do the specs bother you? There is a cure for that ailment

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
Like Clint pointed out, perhaps HTM may not have the same rigorous standards as Audioholics. But if we can get high quality specs - like THD, SNR, FR, Crosstalk at FULL power (say 200-watts) and FULL range 20Hz-20kHz, perhaps we will start to see a bigger difference.

.

Maybe that site has an explanation how they measure, was it at 1Khz, full power at so much THD, etc. But, even with a 1kHz signal, full bandwidth only drops about 10%-15% in power, insignificant in the scheme of things; 100watts vs 115 watts or so.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What exactly is the speaker protection issue?

The whole idea of seperate amps/pre-amps sounds really cool. It's definately something I need to think about.

I'm assuming the blu-ray player would have to have the 7.1 analog outs into each respective pre-amp channel... correct?

How are you hooking up your cd player with your current setup?

All three components (BD, SACD/DVD-A, HD DVD) have 5.1 Analog Outputs. So I just hook each to the PMA2000. The DVD-5910CI goes to the CD INPUT, DVD-3800BDCI goes to the AUX1, and the Toshiba HDDVD goes to the AUX2.

 

[PENG]

Why do you insist on bringing up specs over and over and over? Specs are often incomplete, flawed, scewed, or outright false and for you to rely so heavy on marketing numbers makes no sense, why do you do this all the time?

I am not sure who you referred to, but you are right about specs being incomplete, flawed, etc. However, if you look at the output waveforms of various amps you will also see that the difference between them are probably too small to be audible as long they are operating within their design limits.

I won't recommend anyone to take the specs of a Sony (Non ES series) or a Yamaha RX-V361 receivers seriously and compare that to that of a Mcintosh amp, or even a Behringer amp. You could however, take the specs of any Yamaha RX-VX800, Pioneer Elite, top of the line sony ES, Denon AVR-3808 (or above) and compare them to that of most mid to mid high separate systems without being too concerned about being "screwed" as you would if you do the same with loudspeakers.

 

[TLS Guy]

I take 3 days to move out town home from Grand forks to Minneapolis and we have a thread that is pure nonsense!

This whole thread started with a completely meaningless spec.

The fact is most of these receivers have very poor amps indeed, but you would not know it from the specs.

The devil is in the details. It is given away by the fact that a lot of them are actually blown up by driving low impedance loads. The more that a blown up the better probably. Switches that have to be thrown to limit current into 6 ohm loads, that throw the amps into premature clipping are another dead give away.

The fact is there is no excuse these days to not build output stages than can deliver high current into at least four ohm loads, and preferably 2 ohm loads, without over heating and or self destructing!

The consequences are, that most of the speaker manufactures mentioned on these forums are seriously compromising their designs to avoid embarrassing and blowing up these ghastly audio specimens. For narrow fronted loudspeakers, is is nigh on impossible to build a decent product without dropping the impedance to four ohms or lower below 400 Hz. There is a very good reason that good speakers such as Dynaudio and many others drop their impedance in the upper and middle bass. You just can't drive them with most receivers. It is not the speaker designers at fault here, but pure corporate greed on the part of the large receiver manufacturers. Designing wit high current output devices would add surprisingly little to the price, but add value enormously to the product.

These receivers are highly limiting of the total results, that could be achieved in the range of reasonably affordable equipment. They especially limit loudspeaker choice and design options. I have little good to say about them as they are a root cause of a severe distortion of the market place and affordable options.

 

[russ_l]

Best Approach ??

All three components (BD, SACD/DVD-A, HD DVD) have 5.1 Analog Outputs. So I just hook each to the PMA2000. The DVD-5910CI goes to the CD INPUT, DVD-3800BDCI goes to the AUX1, and the Toshiba HDDVD goes to the AUX2.

While AcuDefTechGuy has a novel approach to amplification, I'm not sure his approach to decoding and bass management in his individual source components will stand up to that performed in the receiver or prepro; typically better than the source components. IMHO

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

While AcuDefTechGuy has a novel approach to amplification, I'm not sure his approach to decoding and bass management in his individual source components will stand up to that performed in the receiver or prepro; typically better than the source components. IMHO

I think many people would agree that it doesn't matter whether the player or the receiver does the processing. All the differences in THD, SNR, Crosstalk, F.R. are insignificant and inaudible.

There are always 2 camps. One believes that even a cheap DACs will sound just as good as the expensive DACs. The other camp believes that the more expensive DACs perform better.

The Denon, Onkyo, & Yamaha use the Burr-Brown PCM1796 DAC on their flagship models. However, the flagship Burr-Brown DAC is the PCM1792, not the PCM1796.

The Denon DVD-5910CI Player has the flagship PCM1792. The Denon DVD-3800 BD player has the PCM1796. So which one uses the better DACs? The Source or the pre-pro/receiver?

A player that has a "better" DACs than a $7,000 Denon pre-pro-- so there goes your theory of the pre-pro having better processing than the source.

So it does not matter which one does the processing/decoding.

And the video?

Well, both the DVD-5910 & DVD-3800 have the Silicon Optix Realta. Are the video processors in any receivers or pre-pros out there better than the Realta? I don't think so.

Bass management? I use Source Direct which bypasses ALL bass management and set every speaker to full range 20Hz-20kHz.
No bass management, no tones, no EQs, no DSPs -- just pure discrete 5.1 decodings for DD, DTS, TrueHD, DTS-MA, SACD, DVD-A, and 2.0 CD.

With that said, there is always a right system for someone.

This system is ideal for those who DESIRE to have a dedicated analog stereo preamp for that 2.0 CD listening, but don't want 2 separate systems.

What I'm using is basically an Analog 5.1 Audio Preamplifier/Amplifier system.

It's not for everyone.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It's all about personality

...That's my theory.

The Type "A" Personality are the Separates group.
The Type "B" Personality are the receivers group.
Type "AB" are a combination.

And in my line of work, I cannot stand duplications of any kind. That's how I was taught in school and I live by it. Redundancy and duplication are my pet peeve.

Oh, and the Type "O" Personality are the Purist Analog Preamp/Amp group.

The "O" stands for Obsessive-Compulsive.

 

[dem beats]

I am truely impressed Great post!

 

[gmichael]

What if you hook both of these units up to speakers with wild resistance swings? Which one will keep playing and which one will start sending smoke signals for help?

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
And in my line of work, I cannot stand duplications of any kind. That's how I was taught in school and I live by it. Redundancy and duplication are my pet peeve.
.

Good think you are not in the space program Or some other, similar line of work

 

[PENG]

I take 3 days to move out town home from Grand forks to Minneapolis and we have a thread that is pure nonsense!

This whole thread started with a completely meaningless spec.

The fact is most of these receivers have very poor amps indeed, but you would not know it from the specs.

Everytime I see opening remarks like this I don't feel like reading the rest of it. I read many of your posts in the past. While you obviously have good knowledge in this field you do not know everything; and based on some of your posts I do not think you have the authority to talk like this. No one can stop you though but many of your comments are not based on facts but your opinion, or things that you think you know. So I hope you would stop using such strong and definitive language everything when some members share their "opinion" or knowledge that may seem to differ from yours. I know I am doing the same right now, but for once I failed to resist the temptation.

 

[codexp3]

And in my line of work, I cannot stand duplications of any kind. That's how I was taught in school and I live by it. Redundancy and duplication are my pet peeve.



The "O" stands for Obsessive-Compulsive.

Oh god! So, if I were to order three K riders I'd get 15,20,25 meq? Guess they still total 60....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Oh god! So, if I were to order three K riders I'd get 15,20,25 meq? Guess they still total 60....

Good think you are not in the space program Or some other, similar line of work

No guys, when I said "duplications", I meant like 2 Calcium-Channel Blockers, 2 Proton-Pump Inhibitors, 2 Beta-Blockers, etc.

By all means, please triple and quadruple check your work. That's good stuff.

One thing about open discussions is that you get to see how others think. It's not about right and wrong. We just respectively differ in opinions.

Okay, so here I have a DVD player that has a higher-end DACs than even a $7K pre-pro. It also has the same exact video processor as this $7K pre-pro. So I'm thinking, "Why do I need 2 components to do the same exact things? Why don't I just cut out the middle-man and go directly to the amp?"

But anyway, HOME THEATER MAGAZINE just did a pretty good review on both the Denon AVR-5308 and Yamaha Z11.

They both had awesome, awesome specs. It's not out online yet. I think the 5308 was like F.R. 20Hz-20kHz +/-0.0dB, THD 0.0004%, SNR 109dB, Crosstalk -92dB. I think the Z11 was like F.R. 20Hz-20kHz +/-0.0dB, THD 0.0007%, SNR 106dB, Crosstalk -98dB. Both had great power output, which escapes my memory, but I recall the 5308 had slightly more power.

I bet both of these receivers could puss even 2 ohms speakers, don't you guys?

But I am a pure separates analog guy, so I'll stick to my amps.

 

[gus6464]

Hey ACDT, did you buy your PMA2000IVR's from dakmart? How much was shipping for one of those beasts? I remember auditioning a pair of huge Phase Tech towers with that amp and it was massive. It powered the Phase Techs to very loud SPLs in a huge room very easily though.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hey ACDT, did you buy your PMA2000IVR's from dakmart? How much was shipping for one of those beasts? I remember auditioning a pair of huge Phase Tech towers with that amp and it was massive. It powered the Phase Techs to very loud SPLs in a huge very easily though.

Yeah, I bought it from Dakmart. They gave me a special deal since I bought 3 of them. I think it was like $650 each or something. I think shipping was around $70 total. It was a great price. The packing was nice & UPS shipping was good.

 

[mtrycrafts]

No guys, when I said "duplications", I meant like 2 Calcium-Channel Blockers, 2 Proton-Pump Inhibitors, 2 Beta-Blockers, etc.

By all means, please triple and quadruple check your work. That's good stuff.

What I meant is that they have backup systems that run in parallel, several, in fact

One thing about open discussions is that you get to see how others think. It's not about right and wrong. We just respectively differ in opinions.

Absolutely. And some fun along the way

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

HOME THEATER MAGAZINE:

5308 spec: F.R. 20Hz-20kHz +/-0.0dB, THD 0.0004%, SNR 110dB, Crosstalk -92dB. 235W/339W @ 8/4 ohms 2Ch driven, 184W @ 8 ohms x 5Ch, $5,200.

Z11 spec: F.R. 20Hz-20kHz +/-0.0dB, THD 0.0007%, SNR 107dB, Crosstalk -98dB, 243W/387W @ 8/4 ohms 2Ch driven, 183W @ 8 ohms x 5Ch, $5,500.