Objective Look @ Low Cost vs High Cost Receiver

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okay, this other thread on "What makes receivers sound differently" was closed due to heated debate and personal attacks. So let us just look at the objective side of the coin, shall we?

Let us just take one example.

Here is the attached chart I compiled from Home Theater Magazine:

View attachment 6057

The Meridian G95 DVD A/V Receiver is $8,500, produces 128wpc x 2Ch (both channels simultaneously), has a frequency response of 20 Hz – 20 kHz +/- 0.2 dB, THD < 0.018%, and Crosstalk of - 90 dB.

The Onkyo TX-SR575 is $480, produces 144wpc x 2Ch (both channels simultaneously), has a frequency response of 20 Hz – 20 kHz +/- 0.1 dB, THD < 0.004%, and Crosstalk of - 92 dB.

So this $480 receiver has better Power Output, frequency response, THD, and Crosstalk than this $8,500 Meridian Receiver. This is OBJECTIVE.

Now if you offered me either receiver for free, of course I would take the $8,500 Meridian. But this is SUBJECTIVE.

 

[Adam]

So let us just look at the objective side of the coin, shall we?

Good luck with that.

So this $480 receiver has better Power Output, frequency response, THD, and Crosstalk than this $8,500 Meridian Receiver. This is OBJECTIVE.

Yeah, but the Meridian can play discs.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Okay, this other thread on "What makes receivers sound differently" was closed due to heated debate and personal attacks. So let us just look at the objective side of the coin, shall we?

Let us just take one example.

Here is the attached chart I compiled from Home Theater Magazine:

View attachment 6057

The Meridian G95 DVD A/V Receiver is $8,500, produces 128wpc x 2Ch (both channels simultaneously), has a frequency response of 20 Hz – 20 kHz +/- 0.2 dB, THD < 0.018%, and Crosstalk of - 90 dB.

The Onkyo TX-SR575 is $480, produces 144wpc x 2Ch (both channels simultaneously), has a frequency response of 20 Hz – 20 kHz +/- 0.1 dB, THD < 0.004%, and Crosstalk of - 92 dB.

So this $480 receiver has better Power Output, frequency response, THD, and Crosstalk than this $8,500 Meridian Receiver. This is OBJECTIVE.

Now if you offered me either receiver for free, of course I would take the $8,500 Meridian. But this is SUBJECTIVE.

Yes, and yes
Now, one needs to see which will meet ones needs. Perhaps that $480 doesn't have all the features one wants and needs
But, audibly it is a coin flipper
Also, from your chart, all those numbers are pretty darn impressive.

 

[gus6464]

What about the fact that the Onkyo gets hot enough to cook an egg whereas the Meridian probably does not. Although receiver technology changes very often and it's kind of waste to spend that much on a receiver that will become obsolete in a year or two, there are certain things like analog integrated amps where technology has pretty much stayed the same.

Even though spending $8000 is pretty crazy for the meridian, spending something like $3000 on a piece of electronics that will last 20 years is a good deal IMO.

 

[Haoleb]

Seriously,... How many times are you going to start threads with your specs comparing something cheap and something really expensive?

Its so far beyond beating a dead horse at this point...

 

[Seth=L]

What about the fact that the Onkyo gets hot enough to cook an egg whereas the Meridian probably does not. Although receiver technology changes very often and it's kind of waste to spend that much on a receiver that will become obsolete in a year or two, there are certain things like analog integrated amps where technology has pretty much stayed the same.

Even though spending $8000 is pretty crazy for the meridian, spending something like $3000 on a piece of electronics that will last 20 years is a good deal IMO.

My Magnavox CD players are 22 years old (still work as new) and they wheren't $3000.

 

[itschris]

I don't know, I have a hard time believing that higher end gear is absolutely a homegenious product to consumer grade, entry level gear.

I think there's a "sum of the parts" component that does make a difference. I mean if you have a $10K processer hooked up to an $800 sub/sat system, it won't sound any better than a $190 budget receiver. I think systems perform at the lowest common denominator. I think if you have all your gear with in-kind parameters and quality, including speakers, room, interconnects (no not Monster, just quality from say BJ) then there is something to be gained.

Over the years, I've certainly heard some very fine systems and not so fine. I can say that those which I still remember, the systems or rooms that blew me away and made me green with envy, were not stocked with budget equipment. I'm not saying that budget system don't sound good. Not at all. In fact I think you get 95%+ there... but it's that extra percent or two... maybe just that intangible quality you can't put your finger on that makes a difference.

 

[PENG]

I wish Audioholics would conduct a DBT session using today's equipment. They can then invite (or sell entrance tickets to) members who are interested to participate. There is no guarantee that such a DBT session will settle all the arguments but there is a good chance that it may at least help believers and non believers to become more objective. The problem with those previously done DBTs is that they were all done many years ago and people don't really know anything about the participants.

 

[Bluesmoke]

For our Canadian Winters, I'm considering just buying 2 cheap Onkyo receivers. If my math is correct, I should be able to save more money heating my house having those on than the furnace for heat.

 

[chadnliz]

Seriously,... How many times are you going to start threads with your specs comparing something cheap and something really expensive?

Its so far beyond beating a dead horse at this point...

AMEN! It would be scary to see if anything productive was accomplished but that is just my subjective/objective opinion based on the conversational specs.

 

[gus6464]

I just don't see how people can spend more on electronics than speakers. Now I understand if you are buying $500 speakers and getting a $500 receiver since that is the cheapest you can for HDMI and all the new stuff. But then you have people buying $1500 receivers when all the speakers also cost $1500. I understand buying something more stout if you have speakers that are less than 8ohm but even then a $500 receiver with $700 5ch amp is still cheaper and better than getting the $1500 receiver.

If I am spending $8000 on that Meridian my speakers should cost $50000. I can see spending 50% of speaker cost in electronics when you get to that level but not 100%+.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I don't know, I have a hard time believing that higher end gear is absolutely a homegenious product to consumer grade, entry level gear.

I think there's a "sum of the parts" component that does make a difference. I mean if you have a $10K processer hooked up to an $800 sub/sat system, it won't sound any better than a $190 budget receiver. I think systems perform at the lowest common denominator. I think if you have all your gear with in-kind parameters and quality, including speakers, room, interconnects (no not Monster, just quality from say BJ) then there is something to be gained.

Over the years, I've certainly heard some very fine systems and not so fine. I can say that those which I still remember, the systems or rooms that blew me away and made me green with envy, were not stocked with budget equipment. I'm not saying that budget system don't sound good. Not at all. In fact I think you get 95%+ there... but it's that extra percent or two... maybe just that intangible quality you can't put your finger on that makes a difference.

The lowest common denominator is the speakers, room, recordings and your hearing capability Especially that last bit since it has finite limits that in most cases have been exceeded by well designed gear

That $10k processor is still limited by the above and at some point by the last bit, hearing thresholds
Unfortunately some think that the hearing has limitless capability; far from it. One good example is perceptual coding. We don' hear a bunch in live music as it is masked.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Seriously,... How many times are you going to start threads with your specs comparing something cheap and something really expensive?

Its so far beyond beating a dead horse at this point...

True, but there are always newer forum members who ask this same question over and over again. For example, Matt85 started a thread about this topic, which was quickly closed:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45357

I didn't want to start a new thread, but since his thread was closed, I wanted to give him a different view.

We all have different opinions. It's kind of like reviewers writing equipment reviews. They give their opinions. It's fine, but some of us like to also see the numbers. Our mind process better with a few simple numbers. That is all.

I'm not siding with either side. I don't even own a receiver or a pre-pro.

But if I were to pick a side, it would be with the MORE EXPENSIVE receiver!

Hell, yeah, I would rather have the Denon AVP + POA!!!

Actually, I'm kind of ticked off that a $480 receiver could have better specs than my separates!

What do you guys think about this statement when it comes to Onkyos:

"The candle that burns The brightest is the first to go out".

Those Onkyos sure have awesome specs. But will they be the first to burn out?

Only time will tell.

But please. I'm not trying to piss off anyone here, okay?

I thought I was just trying to help out a new member.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...there are certain things like analog integrated amps where technology has pretty much stayed the same.

Even though spending $8000 is pretty crazy for the meridian, spending something like $3000 on a piece of electronics that will last 20 years is a good deal IMO.

Amen, brother!

I love Integrated Amps, yes I do!

 

[gus6464]

True, but there are always newer forum members who ask this same question over and over again. For example, Matt85 started a thread about this topic, which was quickly closed:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45357

I didn't want to start a new thread, but since his thread was closed, I wanted to give him a different view.

We all have different opinions. It's kind of like reviewers writing equipment reviews. They give their opinions. It's fine, but some of us like to also see the numbers. Our mind process better with a few simple numbers. That is all.

I'm not siding with either side. I don't even own a receiver or a pre-pro.

But if I were to pick a side, it would be with the MORE EXPENSIVE receiver!

Hell, yeah, I would rather have the Denon AVP + POA!!!

Actually, I'm kind of ticked off that a $480 receiver could have better specs than my separates!

What do you guys think about this statement when it comes to Onkyos:

"The candle that burns The brightest is the first to go out".

Those Onkyos sure have awesome specs. But will they be the first to burn out?

Only time will tell.

But please. I'm not trying to piss off anyone here, okay?

I thought I was just trying to help out a new member.

Wait you don't have a receiver or pre/pro? What in the world do you use?

 

[mike c]

The Meridian G95 DVD A/V Receiver is $8,500, produces 128wpc x 2Ch (both channels simultaneously), has a frequency response of 20 Hz – 20 kHz +/- 0.2 dB, THD < 0.018%, and Crosstalk of - 90 dB.

The Onkyo TX-SR575 is $480, produces 144wpc x 2Ch (both channels simultaneously), has a frequency response of 20 Hz – 20 kHz +/- 0.1 dB, THD < 0.004%, and Crosstalk of - 92 dB.

Actually, I'm kind of ticked off that a $480 receiver could have better specs than my separates!

if you are talking about those in bold above ...
THD that low is inaudible

are those manufacturer specs or bench tested specs?
if those are bench tested, then DON'T buy the meridian, because obviously, the specs matter to you.

then there's also non-SQ affecting stuff like:
-build quality
-customer service
-features
-aesthetics
-exclusivity

 

[davidtwotrees]

I don't think these threads are a bad idea. I give Acu kudos for taking the initiative. I'm currently using a Lexicon prepro that is over ten years old and cost thousands of dollars at the time.......and now it is worth a couple hundred tops. It sounds just fine and works great with the new S. Fogg seven channel analog bypass surgery.......

 

[Adam]

I wish Audioholics would conduct a DBT session using today's equipment. They can then invite (or sell entrance tickets to) members who are interested to participate.

That is an EXCELLENT idea, Peng! They could do that at the upcoming annual event.

What do you guys think about this statement when it comes to Onkyos:

"The candle that burns The brightest is the first to go out".

As good old D. Leppard put it, "it's better to burn out, then fade away."

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wait you don't have a receiver or pre/pro? What in the world do you use?

I use 3 integrated amplifiers. I let my players do all the decodings - just like SACD and DVD-A. Since the players have all the internal decoders (DD, DD+, TrueHD, DTS, DTS-HR, DTS-MA, DSD, MLP, etc.), why duplicate?

 

[Audioholics]

A lot of the measurements done by magazines involve very simple script tests on an AP device. We've seen some significant differences when you actually open up products to real full-power tests and monitor THD, etc.