No Differences Between "Core" DTS and Lossless DTS-HD MA Stream?

[PearlcorderS701]

Hello, Audioholics.

First time poster here. Was wondering if someone could lend some insight into an issue I'm having regarding audible differences when it comes to the "core" DTS audio extracted from a Master Audio soundtrack and a true lossless extension. First, let me say what sparked my curiosity regarding this subject was this post I found by a member in the OPPO BDP-83 thread, in which he describes the behavior of his Onkyo receiver (my equipment is similar to his, but I'll get to that). I have highlighted my central concerns in bold:

I have a first-hand account of an instance where this isn't 100% true.

I own an Onkyo TX-SR705 and, depending on the sampling frequency, LPCM and bitstream TrueHD/DTS-HD are not all handled equally.

With LPCM, complete processing (bass management, room correction, DPL IIx, etc.) is applied to any signal that is up to an including 96 kHz sampling frequency. But if the LPCM is a 192 kHz sampling frequency signal, the 705 will not process it - it will only play it back exactly as it came in (with only the treble/bass "tone" controls available).

With a TrueHD bitstream, the 705 will completely process any signal up to an including a 48 kHz sampling frequency. But at 96 kHz, it will only play it back straight - no processing. And if it is a 192 kHz TrueHD bitstream, it will not play it at all!

With DTS-HD Master Audio, it will process up to 48 kHz signals. It will not process 96 kHz signals, but it will play them back straight. And it will play 192 kHz signals, but it will down sample them to 96 kHz in order to do so!

So with the Onkyo TX-SR705, everything is equal so long as the incoming signal is 48 kHz sampling frequency or less. But if I want to listen to a 96 kHz signal, I'm best off with a LPCM signal coming from the player as the 705 can fully process a 96 kHz LPCM signal, but cannot process TrueHD or DTS-HD MA at that high of a sampling frequency.

I do not know for certain, but my educated guess is that the 705 basically has limited processing power. When it is receiving a TrueHD/DTS-HD bistream, some of its processing power is "taken up" and used to decode the bitstream, leaving less processing power "left over" for things like bass management, room correction, DPL IIx, etc. With a LPCM signal, it doesn't have to "spend" any processor power on the decoding itself, so it is able to fully process a higher sampling frequency.


So that's a long explanation, but it's a first-hand account of an instance where a respectable receiver handles multi-channel LPCM slightly differently from TrueHD/DTS-HD bitstream. The "weird" thing though is that, in the case of my 705, having the player send LPCM actually holds the advantage!


The example I've seen the most of bitstream sounding better than LPCM is when people are comparing bitstream TrueHD/DTS-HD from a stand-alone player vs. the LPCM output from the PS3. I've seen several people claiming that a stand-alone player sending bitstream sounds noticably clearer and more detailed than the PS3's LPCM output.

Now, one theory of mine is that those people haven't properly configured the audio output of the PS3. If you just go into the PS3's Sound Menu, select HDMI for the audio output and then have it automatically configure the audio output, it doesn't always automatically select all of the various multi-channel LPCM output modes that are supported. Some people may also be mistakenly leaving the HDMI audio output setting under the BD/DVD menu to "bitstream" - limiting them to regular DD/DTS output or only 2-channel LPCM. And then, there are all the check boxes if you setup the Sound menu manually. Basically, there are just many possible ways to misconfigure the PS3's audio output, so it wouldn't surprise me if that were the cause of the "lower quality" audio in many cases.

So maybe the best test would be for Gene to compare the BDP-83's audio quality to the PS3's!

That's probably the biggest question out there and the one that is really on my mind. Set up a PS3 properly, have it do the decoding and output the multi-channel LPCM and compare its sound quality to the BDP-83's bitstream and also the BDP-83's decoded LPCM output. If the PS3 really is limiting the audio quality somehow, it should be rather obvious.


Now, alot of this doesn't relate to my equipment because I don't have a PS3 -- what I do have is a new OPPO BDP-83 connected via HDMI to an Onkyo 605, which decodes Master Audio and TrueHD. The problem is, on the last player I was using, I didn't have MA access, nor did the player bitstream TrueHD. When I played discs with MA soundtracks, the player extracted the core DTS signal and bitstreamed these over to the 605. Since playing the same titles on the OPPO, which now bitstreams TrueHD and Master Audio (confirmed by my 605's display, which reads "DTS-HD MSTR" or "Dolby TrueHD"), it seems I cannot hear any sonic differences between the core DTS signals and the fully lossless ones. Are there supposed to be big differences with the lossless tracks versus the core lossy versions, or are they more subtle, if anything?

The connection I made to the above member's post is that I am beginning to wonder if my 605 is doing what he believes his Onkyo is doing, that is not processing Master Audio or TrueHD tracks at full resolution, and that is why I am not hearing sonic improvements with the lossless bitstreams? It was suggested to me that because of a "bug" the 605 series had in early runs, it is possible that my 605 is simply decoding the standard core DTS from these MA tracks, still, even though the display is reading "DTS-HD MSTR", and that is why I don't hear a difference. Furthermore, I am getting the issue the member describes regarding the TrueHD at 192 not bitstreaming over -- the same thing happens with certain TrueHD tracks bitstreamed from the BDP-83, where they simply won't play back on my 605.

Can anyone weigh in on the lossless/core dilemma? Are the audible differences supposed to be very apparent when going from the core stream to the lossless Master Audio tracks, or should they indeed sound about the same? Should I be concerned that my 605 is doing what this other member's AVR is doing, that being perhaps not processing these signals at the correct frequency?

Thanks in advance.

 

[jostenmeat]

Please attach a link to this quote, and I will offer my own half baked response/opinion soon.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Please attach a link to this quote, and I will offer my own half baked response/opinion soon.

I'll do this as soon as I possibly can.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

EDIT: Sorry josten, I can't clip links because I don't have enough post time. The quote comes from the OPPO BDP-83 thread in the Blu-ray/DVD Hardware section, and it's POST #10 by "FIRST REFLECTION."

 

[jostenmeat]

Are there supposed to be big differences with the lossless tracks versus the core lossy versions, or are they more subtle, if anything?

Depends who you ask. If you ask me, there isn't that much difference, at least for movies, and I was as excited as anyone about this stuff. However, I don't really care too much, as I just choose the best available codec, cross my fingers, and hope that the mix was well done.

The connection I made to the above member's post is that I am beginning to wonder if my 605 is doing what he believes his Onkyo is doing, that is not processing Master Audio or TrueHD tracks at full resolution, and that is why I am not hearing sonic improvements with the lossless bitstreams?

I highly doubt it, and would bet money that this is not why you are not hearing huge improvements. Do you even own ANY bluray that has 96 or 192khz? If I understand correctly, after using the filters at bluray stats, out of literally thousands of bluray titles, there are only 14 with lossless 96khz, and only 4 with 192 khz.

Also know that your previous bluray player gets you 1509 kbps max bitrate with the core stream (which is double what you got most of the time with DVD).

It was suggested to me that because of a "bug" the 605 series had in early runs, it is possible that my 605 is simply decoding the standard core DTS from these MA tracks, still, even though the display is reading "DTS-HD MSTR", and that is why I don't hear a difference. Furthermore, I am getting the issue the member describes regarding the TrueHD at 192 not bitstreaming over -- the same thing happens with certain TrueHD tracks bitstreamed from the BDP-83, where they simply won't play back on my 605.

Well, I don't know why you don't get TrueHD to light up, but is that particular disc recorded at 192? What is the name of the title?

It may come down bad blurays, FW update with player, simply certain settings in either player or receiver, to get the right logo to pop up. I don't know.

There is a firmware available, but is unofficial, and is rather involved for the xx5 Onkyo series. As my friend noted, it's an "All-in-One update package that contains ALL the updates necessary for the 805 (Main, DSP and HDMI) along with complete and illustrated instructions."

However, I didn't do it. The gibberish after the link are the FW statuses in my 805. Also, I don't know if the update will do anything for higher sampling freq. This is not just for 805, but the xx5 lineup of receivers.

http://rs165.rapidshare.com/files/258820207/xx5_Onkyo_UpdatesISO.zip

If you do the above, you will likely have a much smoother time if using 9 pin serial from computer, rather than usb/serial adapter.

1.06/07925A
DSP1 7601A
DSP2 7518A
DSP3 7820B
HDMI 1.01 07706A
Video 3.62/xxxxx(didn't write down).

 

[anamorphic96]

Here is a great article that discusses this subject. As mentioned there is very little difference in the core DTS and DD at full bitrate compared to the lossless versions.

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM

There are many people who claim they here huge differences. However with the blindfold on and things being level matched I have a feeling they would be hard pressed to hear the huge differences they claim.

DTS and DD lossy codecs at full bit rate are really that good and it ultimately comes down to how well the original mix was done. There are differences but they are subtle.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...it seems I cannot hear any sonic differences between the core DTS signals and the fully lossless ones...

You are not the only one, brother.

I've tried numerous times to compare the BITSTREAMS of DTS-HD vs DTS & Dolby TrueHD vs DD, and I cannot subjectively hear any difference.

However, I can hear the difference between BITSTREAM vs non-bitstream.

When it's not bitstream, the player (BD player) or software (Power DVD9 or TMT3 on PC) decodes and send the PCM to our receiver/processor.

I prefer BITSTREAM over non-bitstream.

I even prefer bitstream PCM (untouched) over non-bitstream PCM (PC process the PCM and sends it to my receiver).

 

[PENG]

I've tried numerous times to compare the BITSTREAMS of DTS-HD vs DTS & Dolby TrueHD vs DD, and I cannot subjectively hear any difference.

However, I can hear the difference between BITSTREAM vs non-bitstream.

When it's not bitstream, the player (BD player) or software (Power DVD9 or TMT3 on PC) decodes and send the PCM to our receiver/processor.

I prefer BITSTREAM over non-bitstream.

This is amazing, my experience is opposite to yours! Using the PS3 slim I find it next to impossible to hear any difference between bitstream and pcm playing hd codecs but I have no trouble hearing the difference between the lossy and lossless tracks. The difference is not huge, and very hard to tell them apart in movies but quite easy to tell the difference playing concert blu ray discs.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

First, let me say thank you so very much to everyone who has replied to me in this thread...your input has been read and is greatly appreciated.

First, let me say that, like some members who have replied, I too find that BITSTREAMING sounds different -- and "better"/"stronger" -- to me than going the PCM multichannel route. While this would be a long, polarizing argument for another day, I CAN definitely hear a difference between my old way of doing things -- sending TrueHD as internally decoded multichannel PCM in a previous Panasonic DMP-BD10A -- and now sending the raw bitstreams of the TrueHD signals from my new OPPO BDP-83 to the Onkyo 605 for processing. There has been a definite improvement, somehow, there.

The issue now remains what is going on with DTS-HD Master Audio tracks from the BDP-83. The situation is this: With the Panny BD10A, the player didn't support Master Audio at all, so standard core DTS was being bitstreamed from the Panny to the 605. These sounded great. Now, since replacing the Panny with the OPPO, I am getting full lossless DTS-HD MA signals bitstreamed to the receiver -- this has been confirmed because when the OPPO plays the MA track from a disc, the HDMI handshake issue ensues, and my Onkyo 605's display indeed reads "DTS-HD MSTR".

However, to my ears, the bitstreamed MA lossless tracks don't sound any different than the previously bitstreamed core DTS tracks of the same titles and discs. It seems to be a heated opinion-maker, but I am just trying to ascertain whether this sounds like it would be more normal than not.

So, I just wanted to make clear what we're talking about here...it's not really a matter of "PCM vs. Bitstream" quality, but more about the core DTS stream sounding the same as the lossless Master Audio "extension" from these same soundtracks.

Does the concensus still seem to be that --based on, of course, the "golden ear" ability of some listeners and the level of equipment being used -- the core DTS streams and lossless extension variants shouldn't sound different from one another? I suppose the same could be argued about Dolby TrueHD and its "core" Dolby Digital mix, as had been stated by some members in this thread, but for the most part, I'm asking about DTS core vs. lossless MA.

Thanks once again for the continued assistance.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Thank you, again, josten, for your continued help. Let me address some of your statements because you ask some interesting things:

Depends who you ask. If you ask me, there isn't that much difference, at least for movies, and I was as excited as anyone about this stuff. However, I don't really care too much, as I just choose the best available codec, cross my fingers, and hope that the mix was well done.

I hear you; I too was VERY excited to finally have a player that bitstreamed the new codecs to my Onkyo 605, as most everyone else was. But what's interesting about your statement was the reference to "at least for movies," because one of the last members to post his thoughts made a mention that he too can hear differences between the lossy and lossless versions most notably with concert Blu-rays. I don't have any concert titles, so perhaps this lends more to the theory regarding films not sounding all that different when comparing the lossy core versions to their lossless counterparts.

I highly doubt it, and would bet money that this is not why you are not hearing huge improvements. Do you even own ANY bluray that has 96 or 192khz? If I understand correctly, after using the filters at bluray stats, out of literally thousands of bluray titles, there are only 14 with lossless 96khz, and only 4 with 192 khz.

Thank you for putting my mind at ease about this a bit; I am uncertain if the titles I have had trouble with have the TrueHD mixes with these sample rates, but I get no bitstreamed TrueHD audio with the HD Essentials Blu-ray calibration disc when its TrueHD track is bitstreamed from the OPPO. The player and receiver do the HDMI handshake, and then the "TrueHD" indicator continues to flash without the receiver getting an audio signal at all. It was suggested to me that this may be happening because of TrueHD/Master Audio "bugs" that plagued the early model Onkyo 605s, and Onkyo itself confirmed this by sending me an e-mail that stated the receiver may need an update because some 605s couldn't decode TrueHD at 192kHz.

At any rate, you still do not think that my 605 may not be decoding the true lossless MA streams because of a receiver "quirk" that won't allow for certain frequency decodings?

Also know that your previous bluray player gets you 1509 kbps max bitrate with the core stream (which is double what you got most of the time with DVD).

Okay, but how does that stack up against the lossless extension for MA?

Well, I don't know why you don't get TrueHD to light up, but is that particular disc recorded at 192? What is the name of the title?

As I said above, it's not that the TrueHD doesn't light up on discs like HD Essentials, it's just that the HDMI handshake doesn't conclude -- the "TrueHD" indicator just flashes and flahes without any audio. I can't recall any other TrueHD encoded title doing this however.

The main issue isn't TrueHD -- it's the fact that I can't hear audible differences between the core DTS streams of certain BD titles and the lossless MA extension versions now that I have a player that will bitstream them.

It may come down bad blurays, FW update with player, simply certain settings in either player or receiver, to get the right logo to pop up. I don't know.

The logos DO in fact pop up -- I AM getting "Dolby TrueHD" and "DTS-HD MSTR" to illuminate on the display.

 

[jostenmeat]

Does the concensus still seem to be that --based on, of course, the "golden ear" ability of some listeners and the level of equipment being used -- the core DTS streams and lossless extension variants shouldn't sound different from one another? I suppose the same could be argued about Dolby TrueHD and its "core" Dolby Digital mix, as had been stated by some members in this thread, but for the most part, I'm asking about DTS core vs. lossless MA.

Remember in my lengthy response to you, how I noted that the core is already 1509 kbps max bitrate. If my memory and math serve me correctly, that is already 235% higher than DD on a bluray, or 337% higher than DD on a DVD. IOW, the gap to close is a lot smaller between DTS core and extension, than it is between DD and TrueHD.

I am not saying that is the absolute reason why you feel the way you do, but it sure might be playing a part.

I've said it elsewhere recently, but on DVD, the most impressive movie tracks were always on DTS for me, with maybe one to two DD tracks that I liked (and we are talking Lucas and Spielberg, literally).

Interestingly, there are a number of DVDs that actually have 1509 kbps with DTS, whereas DD can only go up to 448 (which was implied in my first paragraph here).

EDIT: oh, I see you responded while I typed this. I'll start reading your response in about 5-10 minutes, and shortly respond thereafter.

EDIT #2, an incomplete list of DVDs that have 1509 kpbs (and remember that DD maxes out at 448 with this format).
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=672326&postcount=5

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Here is a great article that discusses this subject. As mentioned there is very little difference in the core DTS and DD at full bitrate compared to the lossless versions.

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM

There are many people who claim they here huge differences. However with the blindfold on and things being level matched I have a feeling they would be hard pressed to hear the huge differences they claim.

DTS and DD lossy codecs at full bit rate are really that good and it ultimately comes down to how well the original mix was done. There are differences but they are subtle.

Anamorphic,

Thanks for the link. I've actually read this article in which Geoffrey Morrison tested these codecs and such against each other; however, I've always had a hard time figuring out where they discuss the actual sound differences between the lossy core DTS versions and the lossless MA versions on the same titles/discs...

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Remember in my lengthy response to you, how I noted that the core is already 1509 kbps max bitrate. If my memory and math serve me correctly, that is already 235% higher than DD on a bluray, or 337% higher than DD on a DVD. IOW, the gap to close is a lot smaller between DTS core and extension, than it is between DD and TrueHD.

I am not saying that is the absolute reason why you feel the way you do, but it sure might be playing a part.

I've said it elsewhere recently, but on DVD, the most impressive movie tracks were always on DTS for me, with maybe one to two DD tracks that I liked (and we are talking Lucas and Spielberg, literally).

Interestingly, there are a number of DVDs that actually have 1509 kbps with DTS, whereas DD can only go up to 448 (which was implied in my first paragraph here).

EDIT: oh, I see you responded while I typed this. I'll start reading your response in about 5-10 minutes, and shortly respond thereafter.

EDIT #2, an incomplete list of DVDs that have 1509 kpbs (and remember that DD maxes out at 448 with this format).
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=672326&postcount=5

Thank you; yes, I replied when you were typing, I suppose!

I have always enjoyed DTS-encoded DVD titles over Dolby Digital ones as well...I agree with that.

I think I understand what you're saying regarding the gap to close with DTS vs. DTS-MA, and the percentages of just how much higher the new codecs are; I suppose what the literal question comes down to, is, should I be comfortable knowing the core DTS of these soundtracks are supposed to sound close to the MA extension versions (of the same discs)?

 

[jostenmeat]

Thank you, again, josten, for your continued help. Let me address some of your statements because you ask some interesting things:

You're welcome.

I hear you; I too was VERY excited to finally have a player that bitstreamed the new codecs to my Onkyo 605, as most everyone else was. But what's interesting about your statement was the reference to "at least for movies," because one of the last members to post his thoughts made a mention that he too can hear differences between the lossy and lossless versions most notably with concert Blu-rays. I don't have any concert titles, so perhaps this lends more to the theory regarding films not sounding all that different when comparing the lossy core versions to their lossless counterparts.

Well. I simply think that music, particularly acoustical music, and perhaps most speficially classical music, is the hardest to recreate. Many reasons including dynamic range, our extreme familiarity with acoustical instruments and voices (as opposed to laser rays, tractor beams, and jedi mind tricks), and lastly it's notably difficult to reproduce in the spatial sense. FWIW, both that poster and I particularly enjoy classical. That's what all my degrees were in, and the poster who you reference has a cousin who is a violinist, IIRC. Also FWIW, on classical DVD, I've always, and I mean always, found that lossless 2.0 PCM sounded better than the accompanying mch track. Now, it may be because of the mix, but I just offer that anyways. As you may infer, I do not feel the same with movies!

Thank you for putting my mind at ease about this a bit; I am uncertain if the titles I have had trouble with have the TrueHD mixes with these sample rates, but I get no bitstreamed TrueHD audio with the HD Essentials Blu-ray calibration disc when its TrueHD track is bitstreamed from the OPPO. The player and receiver do the HDMI handshake, and then the "TrueHD" indicator continues to flash without the receiver getting an audio signal at all. It was suggested to me that this may be happening because of TrueHD/Master Audio "bugs" that plagued the early model Onkyo 605s, and Onkyo itself confirmed this by sending me an e-mail that stated the receiver may need an update because some 605s couldn't decode TrueHD at 192kHz.

Hm. Lemme look up what the current list of 96 and 192 titles are. The calibration disc probably passed their radar, because, well, you know . . .

OK, lossless 96 khz, 24 bit

Baraka DTSMA
Celine Dion TrueHD
Chris Botti LPCM
Botti in Boston TrueHD 7.1
Chronos DTSMA
Dave Matthews TrueHD
Grieg Piano/Symphony DTSMA 7.1
John Mayer TrueHD
Nature's Journey DTSMA 5.0
The Police TrueHD
The Professional DTSMA
Sara Bareilles TrueHD
Sex Lies Videotape TrueHD
Tchaikovsky Piano Concertos DTSMA7.1

Hah, 9 are music, 2 are documentaries, and only 3 are movies.

192 khz,

Akira 192 khz
Casablanca DD 1.0
Neil Young Vol 1 LPCM 2.0
Percy Grainger/Grieg DTSMA

So, two are music, one is a B/W classic, and one is animation. Only two are even in mch.

At any rate, you still do not think that my 605 may not be decoding the true lossless MA streams because of a receiver "quirk" that won't allow for certain frequency decodings?

No. I have no reason to believe that your receiver cannot decode MA. I am not saying I am right for sure, but I am one seriously obsessed fool (if you couldn't tell), and I have never, ever come across that with 605/705/875/905 in my wanderings.

Okay, but how does that stack up against the lossless extension for MA?

Oh, I think even the core is only about 1/16th the max bitrate. However, at a certain point, I'm sure it's lossless already, and secondly, the potential of the max bitrate will be rarely reached during a movie (only for some crazy mch thing going on, which as you know doesn't happen for a great amount of time during a 2 hour movie).

As I said above, it's not that the TrueHD doesn't light up on discs like HD Essentials, it's just that the HDMI handshake doesn't conclude -- the "TrueHD" indicator just flashes and flahes without any audio. I can't recall any other TrueHD encoded title doing this however.

Dunno what to say. I'll let you know if I discover something.

The main issue isn't TrueHD -- it's the fact that I can't hear audible differences between the core DTS streams of certain BD titles and the lossless MA extension versions now that I have a player that will bitstream them.

Sorry. Join the club, but it's a big club, so get in line.

The logos DO in fact pop up -- I AM getting "Dolby TrueHD" and "DTS-HD MSTR" to illuminate on the display.

Then I have reason to believe you are getting these codecs in full, perhaps outside of the 96/192 stuff that you referenced.

Whew . . . .

Thank you; yes, I replied when you were typing, I suppose!

Haha, I caught it this time!

I think I understand what you're saying regarding the gap to close with DTS vs. DTS-MA, and the percentages of just how much higher the new codecs are; I suppose what the literal question comes down to, is, should I be comfortable knowing the core DTS of these soundtracks are supposed to sound close to the MA extension versions (of the same discs)?

Yes. Well, because the core is ALWAYS being used. The extension stream is simply laid on top of it. And I bet that extension is only greatly useful in very few scenes in most movies. After all, with just dialogue from one person from the center speaker, we don't need 7.1 lossless capability there.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

You're welcome.

Well. I simply think that music, particularly acoustical music, and perhaps most speficially classical music, is the hardest to recreate. Many reasons including dynamic range, our extreme familiarity with acoustical instruments and voices (as opposed to laser rays, tractor beams, and jedi mind tricks), and lastly it's notably difficult to reproduce in the spatial sense. FWIW, both that poster and I particularly enjoy classical. That's what all my degrees were in, and the poster who you reference has a cousin who is a violinist, IIRC. Also FWIW, on classical DVD, I've always, and I mean always, found that lossless 2.0 PCM sounded better than the accompanying mch track. Now, it may be because of the mix, but I just offer that anyways. As you may infer, I do not feel the same with movies!

Interesting...

Hm. Lemme look up what the current list of 96 and 192 titles are. The calibration disc probably passed their radar, because, well, you know . . .

OK, lossless 96 khz, 24 bit

Baraka DTSMA
Celine Dion TrueHD
Chris Botti LPCM
Botti in Boston TrueHD 7.1
Chronos DTSMA
Dave Matthews TrueHD
Grieg Piano/Symphony DTSMA 7.1
John Mayer TrueHD
Nature's Journey DTSMA 5.0
The Police TrueHD
The Professional DTSMA
Sara Bareilles TrueHD
Sex Lies Videotape TrueHD
Tchaikovsky Piano Concertos DTSMA7.1

Hah, 9 are music, 2 are documentaries, and only 3 are movies.

192 khz,

Akira 192 khz
Casablanca DD 1.0
Neil Young Vol 1 LPCM 2.0
Percy Grainger/Grieg DTSMA

So, two are music, one is a B/W classic, and one is animation. Only two are even in mch.

Whew, indeed! Thanks for posting that info; it's most appreciated. Well, as I said, the only title that hasn't bitstreamed over in TrueHD has been the HD Essentials calibrator. Whatever; it doesn't even matter because I calibrated my display with the Spears & Munsil disc provided with the OPPO, as well as a trusted standard DVD calibration disc I always use from DiscWasher. I don't use the HD Essentials any longer, but it just bothered me that this disc's TrueHD audio didn't play back on my 605.

No. I have no reason to believe that your receiver cannot decode MA. I am not saying I am right for sure, but I am one seriously obsessed fool (if you couldn't tell), and I have never, ever come across that with 605/705/875/905 in my wanderings.

LOL. I'm obssessed too.

Yes, I suppose the point of my thread was to basically get to the issue of whether or not the 605 series of Onkyos had some kind of "bug" (beyond the "gunshot" noise issue which I am not experiencing) that prevented DTS-HD Master Audio tracks from being decoded properly because I cannot hear any difference between the lossy core soundtracks and the lossless MA soundtracks of the same titles.

And, I only bring this up because it was suggested to me that the reason I am not hearing a difference between the two is because my 605 may in fact NOT be decoding MA even though it says it is on the display, and instead may STILL be decoding just the core stream...if the AVR is indicating "DTS-HD MSTR" on the display, then it SHOULD be actually DECODING that soundtrack when played back, correct?

Oh, I think even the core is only about 1/16th the max bitrate. However, at a certain point, I'm sure it's lossless already, and secondly, the potential of the max bitrate will be rarely reached during a movie (only for some crazy mch thing going on, which as you know doesn't happen for a great amount of time during a 2 hour movie).

Gotcha...

Dunno what to say. I'll let you know if I discover something.

As I said, this could be an issue with the way the 605s process incoming TrueHD bitstreams; there was some kind of upgrade needed for this, but I don't know yet if my specific model was eligible.

Sorry. Join the club, but it's a big club, so get in line.

LOL; thanks. But do most really feel this way?

Then I have reason to believe you are getting these codecs in full, perhaps outside of the 96/192 stuff that you referenced.

Right...my receiver IS indicating "DTS-HD MSTR" when I play these tracks from the OPPO BDP-83, which made me assume I AM hearing the full lossless mix.

Whew . . . .

Indeed....sorry...

Yes. Well, because the core is ALWAYS being used. The extension stream is simply laid on top of it. And I bet that extension is only greatly useful in very few scenes in most movies. After all, with just dialogue from one person from the center speaker, we don't need 7.1 lossless capability there.

I understand this, and it makes sense; this is getting closer to answering the question of whether or not Master Audio sounds nearly identical to the core DTS...

Thanks for the ongoing assistance and discussion!

 

[anamorphic96]

Anamorphic,

Thanks for the link. I've actually read this article in which Geoffrey Morrison tested these codecs and such against each other; however, I've always had a hard time figuring out where they discuss the actual sound differences between the lossy core DTS versions and the lossless MA versions on the same titles/discs...

The shocker came when we compared the lower 448 kbps Dolby Digital DVD bitrate to the original. There was an audible difference, but it was only ever-so-slightly noticeable (and this is with a high end audio system in an acoustically controlled environment that is so far beyond what typical home theater systems are capable of resolving). There was just the slightest decrease in presence with the DD version, not exactly a softening of the sound, but just a tad less ambience and a similarly small tightening of the front soundstage’s depth. Quite a remarkable result, I thought, and I was highly impressed with how much fidelity can be packed into such a relatively small amount of bitspace. If I was doing actual scoring, I would have awarded a 4.8 grade to the results I heard – the audible difference was that subtle.

It was déjà vu all over again. We switched back and forth between the original PCM master and the core DTS version, and here we found only the slightest, barely noticeable difference. From a frequency response standpoint, both versions were identical, with clearly delineated high frequency details, but the compressed version differed slightly only in barely noticeable presence —that sense of being “there”, with the original PCM track having just slightly greater overall richness. Whatever acoustic elements were removed in the code/decode process were clearly superfluous, at least for the most part, as the audible differences were so minor as to be almost unnoticeable—again, another testament to the capabilities of this highly refined codec.

Above are the two paragraphs both towards the bottom of each page in the article.

 

[jostenmeat]

Yes, I suppose the point of my thread was to basically get to the issue of whether or not the 605 series of Onkyos had some kind of "bug" (beyond the "gunshot" noise issue which I am not experiencing) that prevented DTS-HD Master Audio tracks from being decoded properly because I cannot hear any difference between the lossy core soundtracks and the lossless MA soundtracks of the same titles.

Like I've said already, I have no reason to believe you are not getting the extension stream. Yes, there are some who are more obsessed than I, and who have followed Onkyo AVR implementation more closely, but trust me I've followed quite a bit, and have never read any such thing.

I hope we have made clear that the higher sampling frequency on those very rare discs doesn't really have to do with your fear of not receiving the extension stream, at the very least for the other 2,304 bluray titles.

And, I only bring this up because it was suggested to me that the reason I am not hearing a difference between the two is because my 605 may in fact NOT be decoding MA even though it says it is on the display, and instead may STILL be decoding just the core stream...if the AVR is indicating "DTS-HD MSTR" on the display, then it SHOULD be actually DECODING that soundtrack when played back, correct?

? Where exactly did you read this? Are you still equating this with the higher freq sampling, or do you have a different thread/post to link for us? Who suggested this to you? Thanks, I am interested in reading it.


Follow these instructions to know what your current FW statuses are:

"Push DISPLAY, and STANDBY together, then release. You will see the Main Firmware for about 3 seconds. If you want to see other firmware versions, do the same buttons, then before the 3 seconds are up, push the > button under the tone button which is located under the hinged cover on the front of the receiver. Hit the > button repeatedly for other firmware versions."


If your MAIN FW is either 1.00 or 1.01, can't remember which, you would have joined the club formerly known as the SOL club, because they couldn't update to new FW. However, since that time long ago, it's now possible, just a bit more involved. I can't guide you through the process, because I've never done it. Please refer to the link I've given you before, if interested.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Thanks Again, Anamorphic...

I apologize, dearly, for needing to ask this once more; please bear with me here. In this first paragraph, is Morrison talking about the "core" Dolby Digital track on a Blu-ray vs. the sound of the lossless TrueHD...of the same title? :

The shocker came when we compared the lower 448 kbps Dolby Digital DVD bitrate to the original. There was an audible difference, but it was only ever-so-slightly noticeable (and this is with a high end audio system in an acoustically controlled environment that is so far beyond what typical home theater systems are capable of resolving). There was just the slightest decrease in presence with the DD version, not exactly a softening of the sound, but just a tad less ambience and a similarly small tightening of the front soundstage’s depth. Quite a remarkable result, I thought, and I was highly impressed with how much fidelity can be packed into such a relatively small amount of bitspace. If I was doing actual scoring, I would have awarded a 4.8 grade to the results I heard – the audible difference was that subtle.

I don't see, unless I am missing it, where it's comparing the Dolby Digital track on a Blu-ray against the TrueHD mix of the same title and disc...

Now, the same here below with the DTS comparisons; when he refers to the "original PCM master" vs. the "core DTS," is he referring to the "PCM master" as the lossless Master Audio version? :

It was déjà vu all over again. We switched back and forth between the original PCM master and the core DTS version, and here we found only the slightest, barely noticeable difference. From a frequency response standpoint, both versions were identical, with clearly delineated high frequency details, but the compressed version differed slightly only in barely noticeable presence —that sense of being “there”, with the original PCM track having just slightly greater overall richness. Whatever acoustic elements were removed in the code/decode process were clearly superfluous, at least for the most part, as the audible differences were so minor as to be almost unnoticeable—again, another testament to the capabilities of this highly refined codec.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

josten,

I thank you very much for continuing your assistance with this matter and my plethora of inquiries; please accept my apologies for rubbing you the wrong way regarding the multiple questions, or if I have somehow angered you to the point of feeling frustrated. Please believe me when I say this was not my intent -- I am merely just trying to understand what you are trying to break down and explain; please bear with me here as I try and put us on the same page. Thank you.

Like I've said already, I have no reason to believe you are not getting the extension stream. Yes, there are some who are more obsessed than I, and who have followed Onkyo AVR implementation more closely, but trust me I've followed quite a bit, and have never read any such thing.

Okay. I was only routinely asking because, on another forum, I was advised that because I couldn't hear a difference between the lossless extension versions and the core versions, my receiver may in fact be decoding just the core even though it is indicating "DTS-HD MSTR" on the display. I am just explaining why I was a bit concerned about it. I was hoping to get some insight from the members here on whether the lossless versions of these soundtracks should or should not sound similar to the lossy core versions of the codecs, and to also ascertain if my Onkyo 605 is somehow not decoding the MA tracks even though the display is indicating that it is.

That said, I am a bit concerned about your previous explanation into how the lossless codecs work; is it really true that the (in the case of DTS) core DTS track is already "laid down" while the lossless extension information is simply laid down on top of that? Is that really how it works?

I hope we have made clear that the higher sampling frequency on those very rare discs doesn't really have to do with your fear of not receiving the extension stream, at the very least for the other 2,304 bluray titles.

I will have to accept that. Thank you.

? Where exactly did you read this? Are you still equating this with the higher freq sampling, or do you have a different thread/post to link for us? Who suggested this to you? Thanks, I am interested in reading it.

I will try and dig this up for you, but it was suggested to me via another thread on another forum; at any rate, this is probably just opinions folks have anyway, and not cemented facts.

 

[anamorphic96]

When he refers to core DTS and DD. He is referring to plain old DTS and DD. However on regular DVD you sometimes get lower bitrate versions due to the space limitations of the DVD format. You don't have this problem with Blu-Ray therefore you get the full bit rate versions of DTS and DD. Hence the comparisons wit the core versions of these formats in both sessions.