Next Speaker Expansion

[evandy]

Well, I finally got my first pair of good speakers. I know the EMPTek E55Tis may not qualify as "good" to some, but compared to what I had before, they're amazing. I'm starting to ponder the next phase of speaker expansion, and am seriously pondering a sub and/or surrounds. Unfortunately, I don't have space for more than small surrounds at the moment.

What I'm wondering is if it makes more sense to get something like EMP's ES10s/CS100 speaker package ($299, wow!) and hock the extra speakers on craigslist or whatever, or go for a nicer sub (the new Emotiva Ultra-10, or Velodyne probably) and put off the surrounds for a while. I've never had surround channels, so in some sense I don't know what I'm missing. But the other part of me is a geek and says: Surrounds would be great!

I have a fairly small room, maybe 16' x 20'. Any thoughts/suggestions?

 

[sholling]

Congrats on the nice speakers! If it were me I'd make my additions one at a time (unless you're rolling in money) and do it systematically. That allows you to budget enough money to do it right and time to savor each addition.

1. Subwoofer
2. Center
3. Surrounds

The subwoofer needs to be sized to fill the entire space (the listening room and everything open to it). I also like to select a subwoofer design based on the environment. For example I wouldn't place down firing sub in a second floor apartment or a rear ported sub with the port hammering a neighbor's wall.

Fortunately 3000cuft isn't a hard space to fill assuming that is the total size of the space. I'd check with Elemental Designs, Hsu Reseach, and SVSound and have them size something for your space.

The center is the easy part because EMP makes reasonably priced match to your speakers. Surrounds on the other hand can be a problem if space is tight - especially if the speakers have a rear port. I'd tackle that last.

 

[Davemcc]

I would suggest picking the best sub you can afford now and worry about the surrounds later. To my way of thinking, the surrounds don't even need to be all that big or expensive to produce the ambient effects in most movies.

 

[3db]

Well, I finally got my first pair of good speakers. I know the EMPTek E55Tis may not qualify as "good" to some, but compared to what I had before, they're amazing. I'm starting to ponder the next phase of speaker expansion, and am seriously pondering a sub and/or surrounds. Unfortunately, I don't have space for more than small surrounds at the moment.

What I'm wondering is if it makes more sense to get something like EMP's ES10s/CS100 speaker package ($299, wow!) and hock the extra speakers on craigslist or whatever, or go for a nicer sub (the new Emotiva Ultra-10, or Velodyne probably) and put off the surrounds for a while. I've never had surround channels, so in some sense I don't know what I'm missing. But the other part of me is a geek and says: Surrounds would be great!

I have a fairly small room, maybe 16' x 20'. Any thoughts/suggestions?

Everyone so far is saying get the sub first. I suppose it depends on you find is more important, bass or ambience. If you have a friend with a surround system, visit his home and try auditioning a movie like U571 during the depth charge and deep dive scenes. Both of these scenes carry both bass and surround information. Watch these scenes with either the surrounds on or the sub on and make up your mind that way. I'm more of the ambience ilk and prefer to have the surrounds first, save up your cash and get a good qaulity sub. The sub is the wow factor in an HT system but the surrounds actually make it way more life like. Either way, go with wthat feels best to you.

 

[njedpx3]

Center Speaker is most important if you like TV/Movies

Congrats on the nice speakers! If it were me I'd make my additions one at a time (unless you're rolling in money) and do it systematically. That allows you to budget enough money to do it right and time to savor each addition.

1. Subwoofer
2. Center
3. Surrounds

The subwoofer needs to be sized to fill the entire space (the listening room and everything open to it). I also like to select a subwoofer design based on the environment. For example I wouldn't place down firing sub in a second floor apartment or a rear ported sub with the port hammering a neighbor's wall.

Fortunately 3000cuft isn't a hard space to fill assuming that is the total size of the space. I'd check with Elemental Designs, Hsu Reseach, and SVSound and have them size something for your space.

The center is the easy part because EMP makes reasonably priced match to your speakers. Surrounds on the other hand can be a problem if space is tight - especially if the speakers have a rear port. I'd tackle that last.

Sholling makes good recommendations. The most important speakers are the fronts and then center ( for dialog ). I can't emphasize how important it is to match the center speaker with the front speakers to maintain timbre ( seamless front sound). The recommended speaker is the E5Ci Center Channel Speaker. You obviously could also get an exact match with another EMPTek E55Ti

If you listen to movies and TV a majority of the time then a matching center channel is most important, IMHO.

Then for lower bass frequencies get a good subwoofer' if you get a cheapsubwoofer it will always sound cheap. Some very good brands are SVS and Hsu. Since you have afairly large room an inexpensive way to add a good subwoofer is to get two(2) Dayton SUB-120 HT for around $300 total cost. http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-SUB-120-Watt-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B000C9NV78

The surrounds are a distant third in speaker priority. They are for emphasis, presense, and enhancement and don't need to match the other speakers, even though audio purists with lots of $$$ will tell you get every speaker the same .. IMHO you can have great sound and be frugal by using much less speaker for surrounds.

Peace, Good Audio and Good Video,

Forest Man

 

[3db]

Sholling makes good recommendations. The most important speakers are the fronts and then center ( for dialog ). I can't emphasize how important it is to match the center speaker with the front speakers to maintain timbre ( seamless front sound). The recommended speaker is the E5Ci Center Channel Speaker. You obviously could also get an exact match with another EMPTek E55Ti

If you listen to movies and TV a majority of the time then a matching center channel is most important, IMHO.

Then for lower bass frequencies get a good subwoofer' if you get a cheapsubwoofer it will always sound cheap. Some very good brands are SVS and Hsu. Since you have afairly large room an inexpensive way to add a good subwoofer is to get two(2) Dayton SUB-120 HT for around $300 total cost. http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-SUB-120-Watt-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B000C9NV78

The surrounds are a distant third in speaker priority. They are for emphasis, presense, and enhancement and don't need to match the other speakers, even though audio purists with lots of $$$ will tell you get every speaker the same .. IMHO you can have great sound and be frugal by using much less speaker for surrounds.

Peace, Good Audio and Good Video,

Forest Man

I agree with timber matching the center with the lefty and right mains but
I disagree with having to own a center channel. If your sitting position varies less than 15 degrees from center, then you can definately get away without using a center channel provided your left right mains provide excellent imaging. Before moving and to make teh room look bigger, I needed to remove the top half of the audio console wich also forced me to disconnect my center channel and put it in storage. Because my sitting position was not greater than 15 off center, I found the sound anchored to the display with no loss of clarity.

Without the surrounds, one is only getting stereo sound at best and is not nearly as immersive as having surround speakers present. It really depends on the priority of the listener as I pointed out.

 

[sholling]

I agree with timber matching the center with the lefty and right mains but
I disagree with having to own a center channel. If your sitting position varies less than 15 degrees from center, then you can definately get away without using a center channel provided your left right mains provide excellent imaging. Before moving and to make teh room look bigger, I needed to remove the top half of the audio console wich also forced me to disconnect my center channel and put it in storage. Because my sitting position was not greater than 15 off center, I found the sound anchored to the display with no loss of clarity.

Without the surrounds, one is only getting stereo sound at best and is not nearly as immersive as having surround speakers present. It really depends on the priority of the listener as I pointed out.

As you said it depends on the priority of the listener. But it also depends on the frequency response of the surrounds. I find it non-immersive when someone has surrounds that desperately need to crossover to a sub at 80-120hz
and there is no sub there. Just half of a sound track with all the depth missing. It's a personal taste thing. I'd rather have 2.1 (or better yet 3.1) with all of the tactile feeling of a movie. If one must have some form of surrounds for movies then it's quite possible to get by with something cheap until you can afford really nice surrounds - they aren't doing that much work. I'm not advocating using garage sale speakers - just pointing out that whatever you have in the garage may get you by as movie surrounds until you can save for what you want, and will free up money for a good sub now. It's only when you get into 5.1 channel music with more than an applause track in the rear that a timbre match between mains and surrounds becomes a super big deal.

Again I'm not advocating that we all sell off our multi-hundred dollar surround speakers. I'm just pointing out that inexpensive surrounds can temporarily fill a sonic hole while freeing up money to fill another, to me, deeper hole (deep bass). In my case I'm using $80/pr Wharfedale bipolar surrounds in my bedroom. They are filling that need just fine until I free up my dipolar Bostons for that job next month. Perhaps that's a good compromise for the OP. A good properly sized sub and cheap surrounds for now. Next a timbre matched center, and then later when there is more money and no rush the OP can readdress the surrounds and move the cheap bipols into the bedroom if he finds them lacking for the main theater room.

OP take a look at the above link. They may not sound like $400/pr surrounds but I suspect that they will get you by just fine until you decide to readdress the issue later. And quite frankly they may be all you need for years to come.

 

[3db]

As you said it depends on the priority of the listener. But it also depends on the frequency response of the surrounds. I find it non-immersive when someone has surrounds that desperately need to crossover to a sub at 80-120hz
and there is no sub there. Just half of a sound track with all the depth missing. It's a personal taste thing. I'd rather have 2.1 (or better yet 3.1) with all of the tactile feeling of a movie. If one must have some form of surrounds for movies then it's quite possible to get by with something cheap until you can afford really nice surrounds - they aren't doing that much work. I'm not advocating using garage sale speakers - just pointing out that whatever you have in the garage may get you by as movie surrounds until you can save for what you want, and will free up money for a good sub now. It's only when you get into 5.1 channel music with more than an applause track in the rear that a timbre match between mains and surrounds becomes a super big deal.


Again I'm not advocating that we all sell off our multi-hundred dollar surround speakers. I'm just pointing out that inexpensive surrounds can temporarily fill a sonic hole while freeing up money to fill another, to me, deeper hole (deep bass). In my case I'm using $80/pr Wharfedale bipolar surrounds in my bedroom. They are filling that need just fine until I free up my dipolar Bostons for that job next month. Perhaps that's a good compromise for the OP. A good properly sized sub and cheap surrounds for now. Next a timbre matched center, and then later when there is more money and no rush the OP can readdress the surrounds and move the cheap bipols into the bedroom if he finds them lacking for the main theater room.

OP take a look at the above link. They may not sound like $400/pr surrounds but I suspect that they will get you by just fine until you decide to readdress the issue later. And quite frankly they may be all you need for years to come.

Depending on the listeniong position, you may be able to get away from using a center channel for awhile and freeing up the cash for a sub. The importance of a center channel I find is way overstated as all HT receivers have a "phantom center" setting. The bass hole of the surrounds can me brought to the main front speakers. I know its all symantics but these are all options. I just want to retiterate that the center channel is not the all important speaker that the majority here make it out to be depedning on the seating postions. Recommnedations o must have a center channel should be qualified.

I suggested to the OP that he listen for himself to a friends surround sound system without a sub and running the fronts full range and then with a sub but no surrounds so he can get an idea of what he prefers.

 

[3db]

As you said it depends on the priority of the listener. But it also depends on the frequency response of the surrounds. I find it non-immersive when someone has surrounds that desperately need to crossover to a sub at 80-120hz
and there is no sub there. Just half of a sound track with all the depth missing. It's a personal taste thing. I'd rather have 2.1 (or better yet 3.1) with all of the tactile feeling of a movie. If one must have some form of surrounds for movies then it's quite possible to get by with something cheap until you can afford really nice surrounds - they aren't doing that much work. I'm not advocating using garage sale speakers - just pointing out that whatever you have in the garage may get you by as movie surrounds until you can save for what you want, and will free up money for a good sub now. It's only when you get into 5.1 channel music with more than an applause track in the rear that a timbre match between mains and surrounds becomes a super big deal.


Again I'm not advocating that we all sell off our multi-hundred dollar surround speakers. I'm just pointing out that inexpensive surrounds can temporarily fill a sonic hole while freeing up money to fill another, to me, deeper hole (deep bass). In my case I'm using $80/pr Wharfedale bipolar surrounds in my bedroom. They are filling that need just fine until I free up my dipolar Bostons for that job next month. Perhaps that's a good compromise for the OP. A good properly sized sub and cheap surrounds for now. Next a timbre matched center, and then later when there is more money and no rush the OP can readdress the surrounds and move the cheap bipols into the bedroom if he finds them lacking for the main theater room.

OP take a look at the above link. They may not sound like $400/pr surrounds but I suspect that they will get you by just fine until you decide to readdress the issue later. And quite frankly they may be all you need for years to come.

Depending on the listeniong position, you may be able to get away from using a center channel for awhile and freeing up the cash for a sub. The importance of a center channel I find is way overstated as all HT receivers have a "phantom center" setting. The bass hole of the surrounds can me brought to the main front speakers. I know its all symantics but these are all options. I just want to retiterate that the center channel is not the all important speaker that the majority here make it out to be depedning on the seating postions. Recommnedations o must have a center channel should be qualified.

Movies like U571, 2012, Star Trek, Master & Commander, LOTR, etc convey much more information than applause. I would dare say that most action flicks contain alot of information for that immersive sound. Its simply not applause.

I suggested to the OP that he listen for himself to a friends surround sound system without a sub and running the fronts full range and then with a sub but no surrounds so he can get an idea of what he prefers.

 

[sholling]

Movies like U571, 2012, Star Trek, Master & Commander, LOTR, etc convey much more information than applause. I would dare say that most action flicks contain alot of information for that immersive sound. Its simply not applause.

You are correct in that some movies have a good deal of surround audio. Those same 5 videos also have great gobs of low frequency energy that will be missing without a sub.

My point is that expensive timbre matched surrounds are not critical except for true 5.1 channel music and that he can get by with something inexpensive - at least for now. But as you said the OP should get out and listen for himself. Part of what keeps the world interesting is that everyone is different.