Next Generation AV Receivers Won't Allow Non-Native Upmixing?

gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Ratings
4,221 20 9
#1
Guys;

I've heard from a very good source today that the next generation AV receivers and processors will no longer allow non-native upmixing of mult-ch content. In other words, if your source is encoded in DTS HD, Dolby won't allow you to use the DSU. Instead you will have to use the DTS:X upmixer. Similarly if you have a Dolby TrueHD source, you can't use the DTS or Auro upmixers. This is something that has always been in the guidelines for all of the CODEC's but never enforced. I believe Dolby may enforce it for 2 reasons:
1. Control quality of content so that their upmixer is only used with their software
2. Put an end to Auro 3D.

Let's face it, Auro 3D is practically giving their licensing for free to Denon and Marantz to stay alive in the consumer marketplace.

Anybody have further info about this? MCODE anything to add/confirm in this rumor mill rant I just made?
 
A

Audio-A

Audiophyte
#2
Guys;

I've heard from a very good source today that the next generation AV receivers and processors will no longer allow non-native upmixing of mult-ch content. In other words, if your source is encoded in DTS HD, Dolby won't allow you to use the DSU. Instead you will have to use the DTS:X upmixer. Similarly if you have a Dolby TrueHD source, you can't use the DTS or Auro upmixers. This is something that has always been in the guidelines for all of the CODEC's but never enforced. I believe Dolby may enforce it for 2 reasons:
1. Control quality of content so that their upmixer is only used with their software
2. Put an end to Auro 3D.

Let's face it, Auro 3D is practically giving their licensing for free to Denon and Marantz to stay alive in the consumer marketplace.

Anybody have further info about this? MCODE anything to add/confirm in this rumor mill rant I just made?
So, does this mean I should run out to buy present year models and before?
I pray this isn't happening! Seems this would really put a damper on the up coming AVR and Pre/pros, if I understood you correctly?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
B

Bookmark

Junior Audioholic
Ratings
31
#3
From what I understood from the Denon 8500 review from Feb this year
, I think it's around 35 mins in.

You will not be allowed to reconvert from Dolby Atmos, Dts :X to anything else such as Auro 3d or presumably Atmos to Dts:X . Anything below this such as Dolby TrueHD or Dts HDMA should still be possible as now. Also as point out in the video if it could be converted to PCM then Auro 3d could still be used. That said there would not really be a point I think the convention of converting Atmos or Dts:X to PCM loses the 3d objects in the process and I think only the base layer is transfered.
 
B

Bookmark

Junior Audioholic
Ratings
31
#5
I can and have up mixed stereo sources using the DSU on the Yamaha. It works quite nicely and I would prefer this over the older Dolby Music one. However I think this more specifically relates to older Pro Logic, basic 5.1 Dolby and DTS and the later revisions of the Dolby EX and DTS ES. I have very effectively used the DSU on Pro logic and straight 5.1 sources to cover the full 7.1 setup. I prefer this to the DTS Neural:X alternative. Down mixing I don't think is a problem for either.

I believe that Gene's point is that even the older variations maybe restricted to Dolby for Dolby and DTS for DTS and lets just wipe out Auro completely. :( The Yammy does not do Auro so that part is not a consideration
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Ratings
403 13 5
#6
Fwiw, DTS Neural X actually sounds different if you use it on 7.1 Pcm vs 7.1 DTS HD MA. If have no idea why this is either, but I've confirmed it by switching between Bitstream and Pcm on my bdp.

Other than that, I really am not sure why they want to lock their decoders, especially DTS and Dolby both agreeing to.
Guys;

I've heard from a very good source today that the next generation AV receivers and processors will no longer allow non-native upmixing of mult-ch content. In other words, if your source is encoded in DTS HD, Dolby won't allow you to use the DSU. Instead you will have to use the DTS:X upmixer. Similarly if you have a Dolby TrueHD source, you can't use the DTS or Auro upmixers. This is something that has always been in the guidelines for all of the CODEC's but never enforced. I believe Dolby may enforce it for 2 reasons:
1. Control quality of content so that their upmixer is only used with their software
2. Put an end to Auro 3D.

Let's face it, Auro 3D is practically giving their licensing for free to Denon and Marantz to stay alive in the consumer marketplace.

Anybody have further info about this? MCODE anything to add/confirm in this rumor mill rant I just made?
Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Ratings
4,221 20 9
#7
I can and have up mixed stereo sources using the DSU on the Yamaha. It works quite nicely and I would prefer this over the older Dolby Music one. However I think this more specifically relates to older Pro Logic, basic 5.1 Dolby and DTS and the later revisions of the Dolby EX and DTS ES. I have very effectively used the DSU on Pro logic and straight 5.1 sources to cover the full 7.1 setup. I prefer this to the DTS Neural:X alternative. Down mixing I don't think is a problem for either.

I believe that Gene's point is that even the older variations maybe restricted to Dolby for Dolby and DTS for DTS and lets just wipe out Auro completely. :( The Yammy does not do Auro so that part is not a consideration
Stereo upmixing is immune to this. I'm strictly referring to discrete multi-Ch.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic Chief
Ratings
417 1
#8
Guys;

I've heard from a very good source today that the next generation AV receivers and processors will no longer allow non-native upmixing of mult-ch content. In other words, if your source is encoded in DTS HD, Dolby won't allow you to use the DSU. Instead you will have to use the DTS:X upmixer. Similarly if you have a Dolby TrueHD source, you can't use the DTS or Auro upmixers. This is something that has always been in the guidelines for all of the CODEC's but never enforced. I believe Dolby may enforce it for 2 reasons:
1. Control quality of content so that their upmixer is only used with their software
2. Put an end to Auro 3D.

Let's face it, Auro 3D is practically giving their licensing for free to Denon and Marantz to stay alive in the consumer marketplace.

Anybody have further info about this? MCODE anything to add/confirm in this rumor mill rant I just made?
Gene..
Ur assumption is correct..
Basic reasoning is that as the global HT market continues to mature, more & more source material is already encoded & sold in digital HD multi-channel formats such as in Blu-Rays, UHD... And even streamed like on Netflix..
Also as immersive formats such as Dolby Atmos, DTS-X are encoded into the source material, the choice of how many channels needs to be decoded is dependent upon the AVR's DSP audio processor and final HT system setup including # of loudspeakers.

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ratings
6,019 14 6
#9
So if the movie is encoded with DTS-HD MA, then your AVR must have DTS:X encoder to upmix the DTS-HD MA to DTS:X.

You cannot upmix DTS-HD MA to Dolby ATMOS?
 
A

Audio-A

Audiophyte
#10
Definitely doesn't affect me. :D
Why is that...
What unit do you have?

I'd love to get more input on this topic as I'm in the market for a new pre/pro and total hm theater build.
So should I buy a 17/ 18 yr model in order to be able to reconvert?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
A


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Ratings
4,221 20 9
#11
Why is that...
What unit do you have?

I'd love to get more input on this topic as I'm in the market for a new pre/pro and total hm theater build.
So should I buy a 17/ 18 yr model in order to be able to reconvert?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
A


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
LOL No. Most current generation products allow you to use different upmixers for non native mult-ch audio streams. In most cases, you will use DSU anyways since most UHD movies are in Atmos or TrueHD.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Ratings
4,221 20 9
#12
From what I understood from the Denon 8500 review from Feb this year
, I think it's around 35 mins in.

You will not be allowed to reconvert from Dolby Atmos, Dts :X to anything else such as Auro 3d or presumably Atmos to Dts:X . Anything below this such as Dolby TrueHD or Dts HDMA should still be possible as now. Also as point out in the video if it could be converted to PCM then Auro 3d could still be used. That said there would not really be a point I think the convention of converting Atmos or Dts:X to PCM loses the 3d objects in the process and I think only the base layer is transfered.
Damn, I wish someone from Denon would come to my place and do a thorough walk around like this.

So it appears their 900 watt rating on the back is based on 2CH driven at full power with the others at 1/8th power:
[[150 + 150 + 11*(18.75) ] + 50 (processing estimate) ] / 0.6 = 927 watts pretty close swag based on their backpanel rating.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Ratings
4,221 20 9
#13
From what I understood from the Denon 8500 review from Feb this year
, I think it's around 35 mins in.

You will not be allowed to reconvert from Dolby Atmos, Dts :X to anything else such as Auro 3d or presumably Atmos to Dts:X . Anything below this such as Dolby TrueHD or Dts HDMA should still be possible as now. Also as point out in the video if it could be converted to PCM then Auro 3d could still be used. That said there would not really be a point I think the convention of converting Atmos or Dts:X to PCM loses the 3d objects in the process and I think only the base layer is transfered.
I did my best to listen between all the "Yes" "Yes", etc to figure out what they were saying.

It sounds like going forward you can't use a 3D Upmixer (Auro 3D, DTS:X, DSU) with non-native 3D formats (Auro 3D, Dolby Atmos, DTS:X) but you can use them on non-native regular formats (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD) or 2CH sources. Does that sound correct? I will try to confirm with my local Denon reps too.
 
B

Bookmark

Junior Audioholic
Ratings
31
#14
Hi Gene,

Yes that was my take from it. No to the Atmos, Dts:X, Auro 3d conversions unless via PCM. Yes to the Dolby True HD, Dts HDMA and below/older. With PCM unaffected regardless of Stereo or multi channel.

If this take on it, including Denon's, is correct then it is pretty much as it is now. Since all manufacturers support the Atmos and Dts:X and some additionally support Auro 3d I don't see a concern over not allowing conversion between these. Denon's solution to the overhead layout seems good with having 15 assignable outputs over 13 actual outputs and configuring on the fly which format uses which speaker layout for amps or pre-outs.

We can but hope :)
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Ratings
4,221 20 9
#15
Hi Gene,

Yes that was my take from it. No to the Atmos, Dts:X, Auro 3d conversions unless via PCM. Yes to the Dolby True HD, Dts HDMA and below/older. With PCM unaffected regardless of Stereo or multi channel.

If this take on it, including Denon's, is correct then it is pretty much as it is now. Since all manufacturers support the Atmos and Dts:X and some additionally support Auro 3d I don't see a concern over not allowing conversion between these. Denon's solution to the overhead layout seems good with having 15 assignable outputs over 13 actual outputs and configuring on the fly which format uses which speaker layout for amps or pre-outs.

We can but hope :)
It makes no sense why you would want to use a non-native upmixer on a 3D surround format.

However, I had another source confirm that Dolby will be restricting even a DD signal from being used with a non-native upmixer.
 
B

Bookmark

Junior Audioholic
Ratings
31
#16
Well that would be sad and certainly not welcomed by myself.

If this is to be retro actively persued with updates to existing equipment such as my 5100 then this will stop me from any further updating until I am sure this is not included.

Of course if it receives a lot of suitably bad press then maybe Dolby will reconsider ;)
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Ratings
4,221 20 9
#17
Well that would be sad and certainly not welcomed by myself.

If this is to be retro actively persued with updates to existing equipment such as my 5100 then this will stop me from any further updating until I am sure this is not included.

Of course if it receives a lot of suitably bad press then maybe Dolby will reconsider ;)
I think it will become a mandate on new hardware going forward. I'm gonna write it up and we will revisit this in a year to see if I was right or just churning the rumormill:)
 
A

allargon

Audioholic General
Ratings
193
#18
However, I had another source confirm that Dolby will be restricting even a DD signal from being used with a non-native upmixer.
They're so petty that they're restricting the basic 384K format used by HDTV? If Logic 7 weren't dead in new processors, I might care. DTS Surround would be affected. So, one will be forced to use ProLogic/its modern derivatives for upmixing?
 

newsletter
  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis