Newbie to Home Theatre...Need help!

[Check84]

Hello everyone. I was sent here by a long time member of this forum that told me he's been a member for quite a while and has gotten a lot of help in the past...I trolled around for a bit and realized you all sound like a great bunch of guys/gals. Hopefully I don't come across as someone just looking for help, since this is my first post and all, but it is what brought me here!

I have a slight problem...and it seems like I can't find anyone to help me fix it! I have several devices I want to connect to one surround sound system, and receive 5.1 sound through all the devices...I have yet to accomplish this, or even something close to this. I am willing to buy any neccessary cables or equipment within reason to make this happen. My only regret is now I wish I bought a system that was a little more advanced with more connections, but alas, this is my "starter set" as I enter the world of home entertainment! If anyone could give me a detailed description of what I need to do, it would be FANTASTIC...I am very...dumb, when it comes to home theatre set up, so if you do choose to help me, you need to walk me through it like you were walking your children through it while you were out of town!

My kids keep bugging me to get this all set up, so I promised them I would try and do it by this weekend. Here's my situation and my stuff I got:

Home Theatre DVD System by Sony
Connections available on it:
(1) HDMI OUTPUT
(1) Digital OPITICAL INPUT
(1) Co-Axial
(1) Component Video OUT
(1) Video OUT
(1) Audio (R/L) IN

Television by Sharp (LCD)
(3) HDMI INPUT
(2) HD Components INPUTs (Green, Blue, Red)
(2) Composite Video (Red, white, yellow)
(1) Optical (Not sure if it's input or output, or even if this matters?)

Xbox 360
(1) HDMI Output (prefered method)
(1) HD Component output

Playstation 3
(1) HDMI Output (Due to the set up in the living room, this HAS to be HDMI)

Cable Box from Comcast
Pretty much every connection known to man...one of their newer ones.



Obviously...I want al these devices connected to receive the best possible quality of sound and video. The MOST used device in our house is the Xbox 360. We watch more netflix and zune and hulu than anything else. The second most used device is the Playstation 3. And lastly, we watch cable every now and again. What I'm saying bassicly is if I was forced to sacrafice quality of something somewhere, I'd prefer it was done on the cable box.

Can anyone help me PLEASE? I've been scouring the internet for days trying to figure something out and I can't find anything...

 

[lsiberian]

My first recommendation is that you get a real receiver. Your home theater receiver might be fine as a DVD player, but it's got nowhere for you to hookup anything the proper way.

What is your budget? I want to maximize your system for what you would like to spend.

Onkyo TX-SR309 5.1-Channel 3-D Ready Home Theater Receiver | Accessories4less

is the minimum price you will find to get a receiver with the connections needed for an XBox, PS3 and Comcast. You would need hdmi cables ww.monoprice.com has those. If you are interested in upgrading the sound we can also help you get better speakers.

Can you return the Sony stereo by chance? Even a 2 channel setup with a receiver is a better choice for your money.

 

[Check84]

Money isn't really an obstacle...but I also am not one to throw money away on something I can't see a full effect out of. I could spend a couple thousand dollars if thats what it would take to get a nice system, but I'd have to be convinced it'd be so much better than a simple couple hundred dollar one.

 

[ACsGreens]

Room Size

Check- What is the size of the room that this is in?

 

[sholling]

The problem with most home theater in a box (HTIB) systems is that most are (as you found out) very limited by design and many are hard to upgrade a bit at a time because of the proprietary nature of the components that most manufacturers use in their HTIB systems. For example the receiver is probably matched to the included speakers and the subwoofer may or may not be powered. The exceptions to this rule are Onkyo and Denon which supply real receivers with their HTIB systems but their speakers still aren't a lot better than most of the HTIB competition. Anyway I can't say for sure without researching your system but it's possible that just upgrading the receiver won't give you great results.

The cheapest solution is to hookup everything you can to your existing system via component video and just use an external switch (not endorsing this model just using it as an example) to change sources. But that's not the best way to do it or even a very good way - just a workable $50 solution. Since the best way to connect everything is HDMI (assuming your TV uses HDMI, if not see above) then the cheapest halfway decent solution would be to replace existing HTIB with a Denon or Onkyo HTIB. Of the two the Onkyo comes with a better receiver while the Denon's bundled Boston Acoustic speakers are a little bit better. Keep in mind that HTIB systems are intended for very small rooms.

The best solution is to build yourself a really nice system but not everyone wants to go to that expense. As an example a pair of Infinity P362 tower speakers, a matched center, and two matching bookshelves for surrounds would run you about $700 at current model year clearance prices. A really good (Hsu, Rythmik, or SVSounds) subwoofer $500-1000 depending on the size of the room, and a decent to really nice receiver under $500 if you shop well. You can save a bundle getting your cables from Monoprice.com. That's a total of $1600 to $2200 depending on the receiver and the subwoofer for a really nice system.

 

[lsiberian]

A real sound system is much better than a HTIB.

You can get a great pair of speakers and a receiver to start off.

 

[Josuah]

If you want the highest quality video and audio from the PS3 (Blu-ray + Netflix) and Xbox 360 (Netflix) you have to use HDMI. Component won't do it for you. You won't get 1080p or high-definition audio unless you are using HDMI.

If you want to keep your Sony HTiB setup, which I believe has analog inputs, you could buy an inexpensive receiver for $200-$300, connect all your sources to it via HDMI, and connect its analog pre-outputs to the Sony main unit. (Just make sure the receiver has enough HDMI inputs and has analog pre-outputs. These are not speaker outputs.)

But since you said you have the budget to spend, I agree you should return the Sony HTiB and get something better. You have to buy a receiver or processor anyway. And you can play DVDs via the PS3, so you don't need that part of the Sony.

A new receiver, speakers + mounts/stands, subwoofer, HDMI cables, speaker cables, and subwoofer cable, should give you what you want. And yes, spending $2000 on this instead of keeping a $500 Sony HTiB will sound a lot better. If you want the most bang for your buck, buy used.

 

[fuzz092888]

If you want the highest quality video and audio from the PS3 (Blu-ray + Netflix) and Xbox 360 (Netflix) you have to use HDMI. Component won't do it for you. You won't get 1080p or high-definition audio unless you are using HDMI.

If you want to keep your Sony HTiB setup, which I believe has analog inputs, you could buy an inexpensive receiver for $200-$300, connect all your sources to it via HDMI, and connect its analog pre-outputs to the Sony main unit. (Just make sure the receiver has enough HDMI inputs and has analog pre-outputs. These are not speaker outputs.)

But since you said you have the budget to spend, I agree you should return the Sony HTiB and get something better. You have to buy a receiver or processor anyway. And you can play DVDs via the PS3, so you don't need that part of the Sony.

A new receiver, speakers + mounts/stands, subwoofer, HDMI cables, speaker cables, and subwoofer cable, should give you what you want. And yes, spending $2000 on this instead of keeping a $500 Sony HTiB will sound a lot better. If you want the most bang for your buck, buy used.

I agree with everything being said, except getting a cheap receiver. Yes you want to conserve money in the receiver area, because in the long run it will be a piece of the larger system most likely to be replaced (speakers, amplifier, receivers, etc).

Technology is always evolving and since the receiver is the accessory that processes all the signals it will have to adapt to the times. This isn't to say if you get a good A/V receiver it won't last you for years to come, but if you want rock solid reliability and performance I wouldn't recommend much under $1000.

That being said the marantz SR-5006 should give you everything you need for less than a grand ($600-700) and it should be more reliable and likely to live up to its performance specs than other lower priced AVRs.

Marantz SR5006 7.1-Channel 3D Ready Home Theater Receiver, In Stock at OneCall.com

This is the marantz SR-5006 from one call, who are authorized marantz dealers and they'll even work with you on the price. It says $799 but if you call or live chat with them and ask them what they're best price is they will probably tell you something in the 620-650 range. Free shipping and a great price from an authorized dealer.

The main issue with other brands and their "value" AVRs is that more often than not (80-100% of the time) the "value" AVRs aren't even made by the company, but outsourced to a third party who rebadges. Which is a major cause of reliability and quality control issues.

I would definitely stay away from onkyo, especially their lower end models, if you do some searching you will find that, IMHO, they're AVRs experience an abnormally high rate of issues compared to other brands.

There may be plenty who disagree with some of the things I've said, but this is just my opinion based on my own research and talking to other much more experienced audioholic and AVS members. Not to mention I'm in the same boat as you and I currently own a marantz SR-5006 and love it. Although I am looking to sell it and upgrade

What can I say, I got a case of upgraditis

Good luck and if you need help don't hesitate to come on back and ask more questions

Alex

 

[sholling]

I'm still buying Onkyos because nobody else offers the same bang for the buck but you have to decide if you're comfortable with them because their may be a slightly higher risk of failure down the road. I voted with my wallet and have 4 - I purchased the latest (a TX-NR809) just a couple of months ago. FWIW the x09 series have a fan to reduce the Onkyo tendency to run pretty warm but care should still be taken to given them room for air to circulate.

 

[fuzz092888]

I'm still buying Onkyos because nobody else offers the same bang for the buck but you have to decide if you're comfortable with them because their may be a slightly higher risk of failure down the road. I voted with my wallet and have 4 - I purchased the latest (a TX-NR809) just a couple of months ago. FWIW the x09 series have a fan to reduce the Onkyo tendency to run pretty warm but care should still be taken to given them room for air to circulate.

Well it really depends in what you are looking for. Onkyo does offer more bang for the buck in a manner of speaking.....or do they? Let's look at it this way: if they offer tons more features than everybody else at a price that undercuts the competition what are we missing here? How can they possibly do this? Well the first thing they can do is outsource the production of all but their flagship models (and some other of their high end models) out to a secondary company to build and rebadge. The next area that often suffers with a huge feature set is the power supply. If power means anything to the person buying they have to think seriously about buying a lower end model of any company because that's one of the first places a company will skimp. Especially after all those licensing fees from adding all those features that I'm guessing you're referencing as bang for your buck.

When I go to buy something I want to know it is built with quality components and I just don't feel like onkyo does that with anything but their flagship models, and plenty of other AVR companies are like this as well.

Does this mean that for the vast majority of people should go out and drop tens of thousands on home theater equipment? Probably not. For most, they won't need the gobs of power and a unit built to survive the end of the world, but if you can afford to spend a little bit more you can and should go with a flagship model so you ensure it is built by the company or with an American made company (preferable IMO) or go with a company like marantz which doesn't farm out at all to my knowledge. Most companies offer so many similar features these days, that it makes more sense to go with quality over quantity. However this is just my humble opinion and I have no doubt that there are many satisfied onkyo, denon, pioneer etc customers who bought AVRs in the $300-1000 range and have no issues.

I will note that your experiences with onkyo may be colored because while you aren't buying the flagship models, your not buying the dinky super low end ones as well. Plus, at least in the family room you have taken the stress off the least quality part of the AVR by using external amps. I would also assume that the family room is where you would actually be pushing the onkyos closer to their limits as opposed to the bedroom or office. Also when I say they fail more than the other products it means some like 1.5% failure rate as opposed to .05 failure rate (made up numbers). I'm not saying there is mass failure going on just that they tend to have more issues (albeit still a small number) and use lower quality components (at least outside of the flagship models) but as long as you won't be pushing the thing to its limits like I intend to do with my pioneer sc-57, check84 should be fine with a mid priced AVR like your 809. At that price, the marantz is just my personal preference because I feel they have higher build quality in terms their physical parts. But hey what do I know.

 

[sholling]

Well it really depends in what you are looking for. Onkyo does offer more bang for the buck in a manner of speaking.....or do they? Let's look at it this way: if they offer tons more features than everybody else at a price that undercuts the competition what are we missing here? How can they possibly do this? Well the first thing they can do is outsource the production of all but their flagship models (and some other of their high end models) out to a secondary company to build and rebadge. The next area that often suffers with a huge feature set is the power supply. If power means anything to the person buying they have to think seriously about buying a lower end model of any company because that's one of the first places a company will skimp. Especially after all those licensing fees from adding all those features that I'm guessing you're referencing as bang for your buck.

I'll assume that Onkyo outsources their low-end models like has been widely reported for Denon and its sister company Marantz, but one of the major "bangs for the buck" Onkyo has been famous for is the exceptional beefiness of the power supplies and amplifiers found in mid-level (60x and above) and high-end Onkyos. Those beefy amps and power supplies have likely been the source of the heat that Onkyos were infamous for. It's that heat that critics blame for failures and a problem that was addressed with the addition of a cooling fan in the x09 models.

Companies can find savings in a lot of places and one of those is economies of scale. They can also accept a lower per unit margin in exchange for better sales numbers. I have not seen industry sales numbers but it would be interesting to see where Onkyo stands. They can also save a bundle on support costs which is where Onkyo falls short. If you can read the manual then you know as much or more about their products as Onkyo's support "techs". I've found them to be eager to help but not much of a source of information and my wild guess is that the turnover rate is high and traininng poor to non-existent. But realistically you'll get better help here than at most support centers so it's not a huge issue.

What you see below is post reshuffle. I drove the heck out of my 906 (formerly my family room receiver) and ran it 16 hours a day for a couple of years before adding external amps and never had a problem. I drove the heck out of the 707 when it lived in the bedroom. The secret was good air flow. The 707 used to live in a fully enclosed cabinet but that cabinet had low noise exhaust fans.

When recommending Onkyo receivers I tend to recommend the 709 and above because of the feature set, preouts, and 4ohm friendly designs. If someone needs a lower-end receiver I usually point them to Denon's AVR-1712 because I feel that MuiltEQ XT room correction is more useful than the networking features of the TX-NR609. The 50x series I leave alone because I'm not a believer that anyone makes a great low-end receiver - at least that was my experience with non-Elite Pioneers.

 

[sholling]

Companies can find savings in a lot of places and one of those is economies of scale. They can also accept a lower per unit margin in exchange for better sales numbers.

I should add that manufacturers can also lower consumer price buy refusing to play price games. Some manufacturers (all kinds of products) try to project a premium product image by banning dealers from deeply discounting their products - or at least advertising their products at a deeply discounted price. My point being that bang for the buck isn't a bad thing.

 

[fuzz092888]

I have no doubt that onkyos are great receivers, if you can get one that works and will last. They are feature packed and offer great value, but I want to reiterate that they are notorious for having issues with over heating and other things. More so than with other brands, and IMO getting one is still rolling the dice a little. As for the beefy amps, that's debatable.

The real issue is that I can't seem to find credible bench test results for the onkyos other than the 609. Based on the results of the 609 it is a good amp, but by no means beefy. 100 wpc at 8 ohms 2 channels drivel is respectable, but nothing tremendous. Truth is, the thing is only 81% and 78% efficient when 5 and 7 channels are being driven. This comes out to about 81 wpc and 77.7 wpc at 8 ohms. IMO this would not qualify as a beefy amp and therefore does not justify the overheating.

Compared to the pioneer SC-37s amp (and yes I realize this is triple the cost, but I can't compare to the 809 due to lack of data, if anyone has any that would be great) the 609 gets crushed. The pioneer weighs in with a rated power output of 140 wpc 8 ohms full bandwidth 2 channels driven. At 5 channels drivel the pioneer is 96% efficient. At all channels driven it is 89% efficient and these numbers are to .1% distortion, but even to clipping! Add on the fact that pioneer elite receivers have a very good reputation and there is a clear winner to me.

If we go a model or two up, the 1009 has a rated specification of 135 wpc at 8 ohms across the full bandwidth which puts it closer to the SC-37s weight class. Still a nice chunk less than the pioneer, but the power rating is very close. Now that we have two competitors whose power specs are similar lets compare how they perform. The 1009 has about 86% efficiency at 5 channels drive, respectable but not nearly as good as the pioneer. However if you look at 7 channels driven we see the efficiency drop to ~63%. This is horrible and in no way shape or form could qualify as a beefy amp.

Even if we drop back to the 5008, the bench test results for those were even worse (rated 145 wpc 2 channels 8 ohms full bandwidth, tested = 5 channels 54%, 7 channels = 54%). So it's clear that onkyo has improved their amps over last generations, but they still have a ways to go. Given this information it can hardly be argued that the beefiness of their amps is the reason they are overheating. More than likely it is due to substandard parts, poor quality control or some combination of many reasons.

If you can get an onkyo that works and you don't need the power they are great, but to me it's just not worth the risk, annoyance, and lack of power.

As you said though, to each his own

EDIT**All my numbers came from hometheater.com and the tests they conducted**

 

[fuzz092888]

I should add that manufacturers can also lower consumer price buy refusing to play price games. Some manufacturers (all kinds of products) try to project a premium product image by banning dealers from deeply discounting their products - or at least advertising their products at a deeply discounted price. My point being that bang for the buck isn't a bad thing.

I completely agree with your statements both in this post and above as to the whole pricing shenanigans. To me, everything should be taken with a grain of salt no matter where the information comes from. Even, or should I say especially, specs can be misleading as I've shown above. Here on forums, product reviews, B&M stores, no matter what the consumer needs to be skeptical and as well informed as they can be because no matter what they are the ones who are going to have to live with whatever they buy.

I always used to hear, "buy the very best and you will never regret your purchase" then I got older and a small bit wiser and figured out things like "best" are subjective.

SO check84, if you're even still reading our babbling my best advice would be to try and find a few receivers you like in a real store with real people and real machines and do your best to see that any display models of the products you wish to own are hooked up to speakers as similar to the ones you have at home and do an improvised A/B comparison. If this is not possible, maybe you can order two or three from an online dealer with a generous return policy and do the best A/B testing you can do, right in your own living room. If none of the above are possible, then I suppose a leap of faith is in order in which case I wish you a soft landing

 

[lsiberian]

OP, don't be confused by this back and forth banter about Onkyo. Just get the cheapest receiver that meets your needs from Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Pioneer or HK. Put your budget towards speakers not receivers.

 

[fuzz092888]

OP, don't be confused by this back and forth banter about Onkyo. Just get the cheapest receiver that meets your needs from Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Pioneer or HK. Put your budget towards speakers not receivers.

+1

Agreed speakers are definitely more important than AVRs or amps at this point. Speakers first then worry about what you're going to put through them.

 

[sholling]

I'm sorry but that was a bit silly. We'll start with the reliability claim... Could we see some hard numbers on the failure rate? 1%? 2%? 100%? What are the hard numbers? I don't have a problem if someone wants to make an claim that the internet echo chamber indicates that they have a bit higher number of forum complaints but forum posts are notoriously squeaky wheel posts and people tend to pile on. In other words it's not scientific. But hey if they have (grabbing a number from thin air) a 2% failure rate after 5 years instead of a (another thin air number) 1% failure rate I can live with that for the extra bang and my completely unscientific thin air numbers are every bit as valid as your 'everybody says'.

As for bench tests why didn't you just compare the pioneer to an Emotiva XPA-5? I mean if we're going to say apples = oranges then let's go all the way. For a $500 ($599 MSRP) receiver to put out 98-100% of rated power into 2 channels and then 80% into 5 is pretty good. Let's compare apples to apples bang for the buck.

Onkyo TX-NR609 A/V Receiver HT $599 MSRP

HT Labs Measures

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 81.0 watts
1% distortion at 95.1 watts

Pioneer VSX-1021 A/V Receiver $550 MSRP

HT Labs Measures

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 46.1 watts
1% distortion at 56.7 watts

Pioneer VSX-1120 A/V Receiver $750 MSRP

HT Labs Measures

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 47.0 watts
1% distortion at 52.3 watts

Denon AVR-2112CI A/V Receiver $650 MSRP

HT Labs Measures

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 76.6 watts
1% distortion at 85.5 watts​

Based on the above I'd say the Denon is the closest but factory authorized dealers sell the Denon for $650 while factory authorized dealers sell the Onkyo for $500. They only warranty items bought from factory authorized dealers. But a closer approximation to the TX-NR709 ($535 @ Amazon) would be Denon's AVR-3312ci ($1100 @ Amazon) because the AVR-2312 lacks preouts.

Anyway I'm done with the debate and agree with lsiberian's suggestion: "OP, don't be confused by this back and forth banter about Onkyo. Just get the cheapest receiver that meets your needs from Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Pioneer or HK. Put your budget towards speakers not receivers." The usual rule of thumb is 2/3-3/4 of the budge should go into the speakers and subwoofer and 1/4-1/3 of the budget for the receiver.

 

[fuzz092888]

Whoa now, first of all my thin air numbers weren't meant to be scientific in the first place. Any reference to failure rates was actually meant to help your side of this "debate" and not mine. When I mentioned my fictional failure rates, which I can't seem to find at the moment, I believe I was using them to emphasize the fact that when I said more than the other brands or whatever that the percent of units having issues is still very small compared the total number shipped. I don't have hard numbers nor do I suspect that any company would provide those to me, so if you can get them I'd love to see them.

Like I said multiple times, the things I said were only in my opinion based on things I've read (forums, "owner" reviews, and others directly advising me) and from the opinions of those who have advised me directly. All of which have far more experience and knowledge to draw upon than I. Again, as I said above, one should always take whatever information they are getting with a bit of skepticism, but I see no reason why there isn't a speck of truth coming from other forum members who have members for a long time with thousands of posts, thousands of thanks, and a generally good reputation for giving advice. To say that I'm wrong for listening to them would make it equally valid to say that I would be wrong as would check for listening to you.

As for the comparison, that's my fault and I should have been more clear. My point in using the SC-37 as the comparison to all else wasn't that I was comparing apples to oranges, anyone with half a brain and eyes for that matter could see that not only did I preface my comparisons saying things like however the SC-37 is three times the price and so on and so forth, but to demonstrate what that extra money buys.

Check stated money isn't an obstacle and that he would be willing to buy something more expensive if it was worth it. I had that in mind when I was showing him the numbers, pretty much saying this is what more money gets you. Although, personally I don't think I compared quite apples to oranges in the first place, when the price gap was wide I stated that, and then I tried to find two more onkyo AVRs that were close to price and wpc rated that I could find data for. I only used the ratings for the 609 to state that the 809, which is closer in price and rating (albeit still much less expensive), would probably have about the same efficiency since they are in the same line. I couldn't find bench tests for the 5009, so I used the 5008 and then finished that thought by saying that it appears the amp in the 5009 is much improved but still not at the level of the pioneer.

As for the $500 receiver putting out 80% at 5 channels, yes I don't disagree at all that's pretty good. My contention was that isn't what I would consider beefy (again IMO) and that the pioneer is what I would consider beefy for an AVR. Given that the pioneer and others can do what they do without as many of the overheating issues (granted the pioneer is class D), I stated that IMO it is probably due to something gone awry, or skimped on somewhere. That being said there are more than a few people who didn't read the manual and stuck them in confined places, which you already said, so.....um agreed.

Finally, as for your suggestions, all good and valid, but a model year older Pioneer SC-35 can be had for $750 on audiogon. Should put up slightly better efficiency ratings and have most of the features the others mentioned offered. Just another one to add to your list.

As for the debate, I didn't realize we were having one. I was merely giving an alternate point of view and suggestions. So, yea. I guess that about sums it up for me as well.

 

[PENG]

fuzz, I think I understand in general the points you are trying to make but I would caution you on the following.

HTM lab measurements - You cannot easily compare them among the units tested as I have seen inexplicable figures. One example I often cited is:

Denon AVR-4810CI A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

The unit weighs 43 lbs vs its little brother the 4310's 35 lbs and listed for $1K more, yet it's ACD output measured at less than 1/3 of the 4310's. So which one do you think has beefier amps. For me I would take the 4810 in a heart beat. I don't know all the reasons for those inexplicable measured values but I do have my own theory that I do not intend to share here. I am not saying those figures are not useful, but just be careful in drawing conclusions based on them only.

The ratio of MCH output/2ch output - This is not 'efficiency' and has little to do with the efficiency of the amp.

PS vs amp - I would think that the 1 and 2 channel output measurements are more indicative of the beefiness (not sure if this word exists but..) of the amp section than the 5,7 channel outputs. The 5, 7 channel output figures are more indicative of the 'beefiness' of the power supply and the sensitivity/effectiveness of the unit's protective circuit.

At a given price point, it is a balancing act in assigning available resources to the power supply, amp section, etc. For real life practical purposes, ACD figures are less important to me than the 2 ch ones so I prefer to, say, an Onkyo's 100X2, 55X5, 35X7 to a HK's 65X2, 55X5, 45X7 (just some fictitious numbers for demo). To be clear, this is just my opinion.

 

[fuzz092888]

I agree with you that those measurements are inexplicable, but on the other hand I can only work with the bench test measurements I can find. I'm always open to people correcting me, as you have or presenting conflicting data that I either don't know about or haven't seen.

I wasn't trying to necessarily draw concrete conclusions per se, but trying to show data from a singular source for the brands we were talking about. I'm not saying HT labs are the authority for measurements or that their measurements are necessarily accurate, I just think that if they're making some sort of mistake, they are making it across the board so the data is at least comparable (again I could be wrong). it can just be tough to find measures for all the models and brands that get talked about from one source.

As for efficiency, you're probably right and the only reason I said it as I did was because that was how it was explained to me by the guy from Marantz. My theory there is he was just trying to explain it to me in terms that I would understand and get me off the phone quickly. So I apologize for that.

I can see how the distinction between the two is important, again something I didn't know, so thanks for clearing that up.

That last part makes sense as well, and if I were looking for another new receiver, I would probably agree with your preference for the 100x2 to the 65x2, although I'd probably be on here asking you how this exactly affects the multi-channel output. Good thing I already bought a receiver that I am more than satisfied with