Newbie Needs Help

[Ryan8886]

Hi! This is a great forum you have here! Amazing what you can learn here with a few hours of research! I've been lurking about for a while, trying to figure out what to buy, but this is my first real post here! Some quick background.....First...Budget IS a factor!

Previous system was a HTIB from Kenwood. Last November, I decided to start slowly piecing together a decent system. After extensive research, I purchased an H/K AVR 330 receiver(demo close-out from CC for about $400) to anchor things. So far I'm pleased with this receiver.

Last month, after extensive research, I finally got rid of the old HTIB bookshelves and center in favor of 2 Athena AS-F2.2's and C-1.2. While I admit to being a complete neophyte to this arena, to my ears, these speakers sound fabulous! (however they seem to carry a low WAF!) I have since moved the old bookshelf speakers to the rear position for the time being, retiring the old ones. Here's the problem....now that I've gotten upgrade-itis, I'm feeling the need for a real subwoofer. I'm presently still running the one supplied from the HTIB (Yeah....I know..I know...it's maybe 8" and manages to do little more than huff and puff ) It's definately not up to the challenge with the rest of this equipment.

The room itself is somewhat of a problem as well. Based on the architecture and layout, the TV and the mains have to be set diagonally across a corner. Not so much a problem for viewing, but from what I've read, not so good acoustically. Nothing to be done about that but cope with it. The room is rectangular (about 400sqf) with small alcove included in the listening area. The 7 foot ceiling gives roughly 2800 cubic feet of air to move.

My listening is:

70% Digital or HD TV
15% Concert DVD
15% CD or satellite radio (Sirrius/Dish Network) (since the Athenas were added, this has been increasing!)

I'm looking for a sub in the $400-$600 (delivered) range. Footprint and related WAF are issues.

I've narrowed the search to the following:
SVS PB-10 NSD
SVS 25-31 PCi (questionable WAF but easier to tuck away)
Hsu VTF-2 Mk2
Rocket ULW-10 (LOT of nice features, nice size, not sure if strong enough)

Not even sure where I could listen to any of these in the suburban Detroit area....I've read some horror stories about the way newbies get treated in some of those places! Based on the previous quality equipment, my ignorant ears likely couldn't tell much diffference anyway! All jokes aside, that IS a factor.....I'm no audiophile...just how different are these speakers to the untrained ear?? Would appreciate any input I can get. Sorry if this was too long a post...just wanted to make sure I gave as much info as possible!

 

[tubesaregood]

I must say that after listening to various sound equipment for awhile you develop a much better ear for it. A couple weeks ago I listened to the Sharp minisystem I got years ago. When I got it I thought it sounded wonderful. Now I think it sounds like utter crap. (Although I do have a pair pf KLH 9915's connected to my Denon PMA-300V and I think they have a very, very detailed and sparkling high end. That must be the Denon speaking.)

The two things I notice about subs is their frequency response and boominess factor. Unfortunately I've never auditioned any of the subs you mentioned, but I'd say look for the one that gets as loud as you need without distortion and has the best low frequency extension without any peaks in the frequency response, especially 40 Hz on up, which is where the boominess is. Have fun!

 

[jcPanny]

Sub options

The real wood veneers offered on the Onix subs might help with your WAF requirments. They have the larger UFW-12 model for $700 in the B-stock section pretty frquently, so it might be a good power and WAF compromise.
AV123.com will also have a ported 15" sub in your price range out soon.

I plan to go with the SVS SB12-Plus (The sealed 12" model) soon but it is also in the $700 price range.

 

[Sheep]

The real wood veneers offered on the Onix subs might help with your WAF requirments. They have the larger UFW-12 model for $700 in the B-stock section pretty frquently, so it might be a good power and WAF compromise.
AV123.com will also have a ported 15" sub in your price range out soon.

I plan to go with the SVS SB12-Plus (The sealed 12" model) soon but it is also in the $700 price range.

I agree. But the UFW-12 is quite large, larger then the SB-12plus(also doesn't have the same extension).

SheepStar

 

[abboudc]

You're probably not going to be able to listen to any of them, as AV123, Hsu, and SVS are internet direct. They're all very nice choices. IMO, the 25-31 would be the best choice from the above with all that cubic footage, but you (and your wife) may not be prepared for how big it is. Given your room size though, it should be easy to tuck in a corner. SVS has b-stock of both the 25-31 and PB12-NSD (which brings it down close to your price range).

The VTF-2 may be more appealing to your wife, as you can get it in a maple finish. The Rocket is a great sub too. But you have a pretty big room...

 

[Ryan8886]

You're probably not going to be able to listen to any of them, as AV123, Hsu, and SVS are internet direct. They're all very nice choices. IMO, the 25-31 would be the best choice from the above with all that cubic footage, but you (and your wife) may not be prepared for how big it is. Given your room size though, it should be easy to tuck in a corner. SVS has b-stock of both the 25-31 and PB12-NSD (which brings it down close to your price range).

The VTF-2 may be more appealing to your wife, as you can get it in a maple finish. The Rocket is a great sub too. But you have a pretty big room...

Thank you for the input! I just did some actual measurements down there and it's a bit larger than I thought...23X19X7, yielding just over 3000cf. If I'm hearing you right.....a 10in sub just isn't going to cut it.
That moves me into the 12 inchers and size REALLY becomes a factor here....as well as price. I was really hoping to stay in the mid to upper $400's.
The 25-31 is sounding like a viable option. I do have two corners that it could be stuck in. Plus the price is much better than the other 12's.
Question though.....I read somewhere on here that SVS will custom tune the 25-31 down to 22Hz if you ask real nice. However that takes the $50 cheaper "B-list" unit out of the running (says they won't custom tune that on the website). Is that still true and is it worth the $50 to get the extra extension?

 

[Sheep]

Thank you for the input! I just did some actual measurements down there and it's a bit larger than I thought...23X19X7, yielding just over 3000cf. If I'm hearing you right.....a 10in sub just isn't going to cut it.
That moves me into the 12 inchers and size REALLY becomes a factor here....as well as price. I was really hoping to stay in the mid to upper $400's.
The 25-31 is sounding like a viable option. I do have two corners that it could be stuck in. Plus the price is much better than the other 12's.
Question though.....I read somewhere on here that SVS will custom tune the 25-31 down to 22Hz if you ask real nice. However that takes the $50 cheaper "B-list" unit out of the running (says they won't custom tune that on the website). Is that still true and is it worth the $50 to get the extra extension?

The 25Hz tune will still get your 20hz and maybe below in your room. Don't fret over that.

SheepStar

 

[billy p]

For your size room and if WAF is an issue? Then the svs pb 12 nsd is your best choice. If you are willing to go up in price then you have more choices, but for that size room nothing short of a 12" would suffice .

PS: I know where your coming from that's why I'm must bite the bullet and save towards the sb12.
Billy p

 

[Sheep]

For your size room and if WAF is an issue? Then the svs pb 12 nsd is your best choice. If you are willing to go up in price then you have more choices, but for that size room nothing short of a 12" would suffice .

PS: I know where your coming from that's why I'm must bite the bullet and save towards the sb12.
Billy p

Uhm, the PB-10 will be louder then the SB-12. He needs volume, and that can only come from a ported box (unless you're talking about a DD15...).

SheepStar

 

[Daz3d&Confus3d]

Ryan....I can say first hand that the WAF factor can be a BIG issue and it's up to you to determine just how big it is in your case. One sour purchase can ruin your chances at cont. upgrades

Having said that....if your waf factor is a big deal I'd knock out the 25-31 from your list.

Personally what I would do based on the size of your room is save for an extra month or so and get Panny's rec.....the ufw-12 is a FINE piece of equipment and you would not be disappointed. Both the other two mention subs are good sounding subs for HT but not very attractive.

I have found my wife to be much more suitable if I just pay the extra and get nice pieces even if I have to be patient and wait to do it (see kef psw-4000.....lol)

Sheep....it's nice to see you've made 'couch potato' status.....you're quickly approaching the coveted 5000 post mark...congrats!!!

 

[Daz3d&Confus3d]

One more thing I thought I might add. When I was shopping for a sub last June I thought I would listen to movies loud all the time....I found that I do not. Even though I have the sub volume up abit for that earthquake 'wow' affect, the volume is not as high as I thought it would be during my viewing. My room is similar in size to your's: 22x18x9

Depending on your volume level....you may be satisfied with a decent 10".

Everyone likes to get that 'wall shaker' but ask yourself if you're truelly going to listen at that volume level? I think you could be real pleased with a solid 10"

Just some things to ponder abit

 

[Ryan8886]

Ryan....I can say first hand that the WAF factor can be a BIG issue and it's up to you to determine just how big it is in your case. One sour purchase can ruin your chances at cont. upgrades

Having said that....if your waf factor is a big deal I'd knock out the 25-31 from your list.

Personally what I would do based on the size of your room is save for an extra month or so and get Panny's rec.....the ufw-12 is a FINE piece of equipment and you would not be disappointed. Both the other two mention subs are good sounding subs for HT but not very attractive.

I have found my wife to be much more suitable if I just pay the extra and get nice pieces even if I have to be patient and wait to do it (see kef psw-4000.....lol)

Sheep....it's nice to see you've made 'couch potato' status.....you're quickly approaching the coveted 5000 post mark...congrats!!!

Daz3d and Sheep,

Thanks for the input! I also should clarify on the WAF issue...she's not the wife yet...more of a "lease with option to buy" situation! LOL! Still MY house and I pay the bills! However, the reaction I got the first time she saw the new Athena towers in the room was not exactly positive. Actually....not even close to positive...it went something like this: Her: "Those are huge!!" Me: "Not really that big" Her: "Are you BLIND and deaf!?"
So...it's more of a GAF. However, aside from a lack of appreciation for big speakers, she's a great girl and likely to be around for quite some time....so it's a factor..but not quite as big as WAF.
So like Sheep said earlier....the UWF-12, while a NICE piece is gonna be too big...and even on B-list the price is a little big as well. Also, as you mention in your next post, I likely won't have it up all that loud all the time. A majority of TV time is spent with her....witht the volume at "reasonable" levels.
However, I'm not above a good room-shaking when I can get away with it...and I'm a big fan of bang for the buck. Always nice to have power on tap...even if you don't use it all the time!
That's why I started leaning towards the 25-31 over the PB-10 or any of the box 12's. Yeah...it's a little funky looking...but easier to put into a corner that she won't notice as much....as opposed to replacing an end table with a big box that's gonna vibrate all the time.....thereby reminding her all the time that this THING is in the room
If I go with the B-stock 25-31, I get 12 inch power and sound with more flexible placement at about $550 delivered. Only downside is it's a little odd looking...but out of sight....out of mind. Hopefully

Opinions??

 

[billy p]

I was

not suggesting the sb 12 plus to Ryan it was the pb12 nsd. I was making the point that a 12" is the only way to go the smaller 10" subs would not be enough to fill his room. I have in fact heard the sb 12 IMO it's plays loud. I also heard the other two ported subs. The only thing they have on the sb12 plus is a little more lower extension, but not louder. As with a lot of Gents we have to take the wifes view into account.

Sheep go for the Veritas. Traffic is lousy out your way.

 

[Daz3d&Confus3d]

Unless you have a forest of fake trees in a corner (or at least 4 or 5) you wont be able to hide that 25-31...lol.

However I imagine it will be a great conversation starter when guests/friends come over, which I happen to like.....I get tired of talking about boring subject material with friends/guests....why not talk about something interesting: SUBS!!!

At any rate Ryan, it sounds like you're set on a 12" and for that price the 25-31 will give you the best 'boom' for your 'room'!!! Just tell her its a new humidifier

 

[Ryan8886]

Unless you have a forest of fake trees in a corner (or at least 4 or 5) you wont be able to hide that 25-31...lol.

However I imagine it will be a great conversation starter when guests/friends come over, which I happen to like.....I get tired of talking about boring subject material with friends/guests....why not talk about something interesting: SUBS!!!

At any rate Ryan, it sounds like you're set on a 12" and for that price the 25-31 will give you the best 'boom' for your 'room'!!! Just tell her its a new humidifier

Thank you very much for the input! I ended up ordering the 25-31 off the B-stock list. It's a 3 paycheck month and I figured after Christmas I won't have too much left over....so I may as well get it now! Should be interesting once it gets here and I get it hooked in. I've never really heard true bass in a home theater setting! Hopefully this should carry me along for a while...this can be an expensive hobby if you're not careful!! Just hoping all my research pays off. I've been getting happier with the Athenas every day! They were a little bright at first but seem to be mellowing out well since reaching 60-70 hours of break in. Hope this sub can be made to mix well with them. Just need to pick up a SPL meter and figure out how to read it! Should be fun learning! Thank you again! I'm sure I'll be posting more questions in the future!

BTW-Daz3d....Don't think she'll buy the humidifier bit but still laughing on that!! Perhaps I'll just go the "I'm ignorant...you're insane" route: "What big round thing in the corner?? There's no big round thing in the corner?? Oh...thaaaat....yeah I'm just holdin' that for a friend!"

 

[Daz3d&Confus3d]

lol....ryan....Best of luck with your new purchase...Im sure you'll love it. Be sure to post any questions you may have.....Subs are sometimes a little tricky to incorporate into your system and because of the seperate amplification you sometimes run into other problems (humms...the word!)

Let us know how you make out and how you like your purchase

 

[billy p]

Good luck

from me as well. Not that you will need it. The one thing about the Athena (GOOD CHOICE THERE AS WELL )speakers and break in period, it's a myth really. It's just your ears getting use to their sound, over that time period .

 

[abboudc]

Congrats, Ryan, i have no doubt you'll love that sub.

Please do take the time to set it up properly though...i know the anticipation of throwing in a movie can be overwhelming, but taking an hour and setting it up makes a HUGE difference.

In any case, it will eat your old HTIB sub for breakfast

 

[Ryan8886]

Congrats, Ryan, i have no doubt you'll love that sub.

Please do take the time to set it up properly though...i know the anticipation of throwing in a movie can be overwhelming, but taking an hour and setting it up makes a HUGE difference.

In any case, it will eat your old HTIB sub for breakfast

Thanks! I do plan to set it up right....but I've never done that before.
All this is running off an H/K AVR 330 in 5.1 config. I have yet to purchase an SPL meter (the H/K has EZ-set) but will be getting one this week, as it appears I'll need it to set up the sub. I've already ordered a new cable for it from Blue Jeans Cable and some new 12ga speaker wire to replace the 16 ga. junk left over from the HTIB.
My question is where to set the crossovers? The Athena F-2's are tuned to 35Hz-20KHz at +/-3dbl and the C-1 to 60Hz.
The H/K allows me several different options (almost too many for someone as big a n00b as me! LOL!) I can go with "Large"/"Small" settings or set actual crossovers for each channel individually (40Hz-200Khz, I think). As far as bass management, I can choose "Global" or "Independent" (not sure of the difference) with settings for "LFE" and "LFE, LF+RF"

What is a good starting point for set-up (i.e. crossover, bass management)? Should I bypass the crossover on the 25-31 to leave bass management up to the H/K?

Appreciate any help (and yes, I've already crawled around on the floor using bass off the Athenas (pretty solid on it's own!) to find the best placement....of course...the #1 sweet spot can't be used! LOL! (right in front of a door!) But the #2 choice looks good..also with the #2 choice I have the option of corner loading or not) I'd never really noticed before how much difference a few feet can make in sound quality!!

Appreciate any input!

 

[Daz3d&Confus3d]

My question is where to set the crossovers? The Athena F-2's are tuned to 35Hz-20KHz at +/-3dbl and the C-1 to 60Hz.
The H/K allows me several different options (almost too many for someone as big a n00b as me! LOL!) I can go with "Large"/"Small" settings or set actual crossovers for each channel individually (40Hz-200Khz, I think). As far as bass management, I can choose "Global" or "Independent" (not sure of the difference) with settings for "LFE" and "LFE, LF+RF"

What is a good starting point for set-up (i.e. crossover, bass management)? Should I bypass the crossover on the 25-31 to leave bass management up to the H/K?
Appreciate any input!

bypass the crossover on the 25-31 and set your hk to 80 for starters....you may experiment with 60 or 100 but in all probability 80 will be the best sounding. Set your fronts to large and sub to 'LFE' not 'LFE, LF+RF' otherwise your low end bass freq. will get sent to your fronts and you dont want them trying to grumble out35 hz and lower wavelengths.....leave that work to your sub!