Newbie needs advice - $2,000 Sub

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Splatman2

Audiophyte
Seriously. I know it can be confusing. It's take time to find the right product for our needs. All these products that have been mentioned are good one's to consider. So at least it's narrowed down to that few. Take the info here process it and find that one that comes close to what you want and can afford or maybe save for that maybe just out of reach weather it's a pair or a single. Then stick with that plan and goal. Get your sub(s) put into your place and enjoy it/them. And never look back.
 
N

NewHTbuyer

Audioholic
I think you have received some great advice. My 2 cents:
From reading these forums and reviews for a few years, it seems like SVS and Hsu consistently get the best marks and have the least complaints. They have a proven track record. High build quality. Top customer service. Etc.

Both, but especially SVS, send their subs out for 3rd party reviews which means a lot more to me than the specs manufacturers claim without verification. I can't seem to find many Epik or Rythmik reviews.

You are going to spend big bucks on subwoofers, so what I would do is order one each of the SB13 and the ULS 15 and use the 30 day in home period to directly compare. That is the only way you will be sure you made the right choice. The price of the dual ULS subs is almost identical to the SB13s when you add shipping. Will you exceed your budget compared to other options? A bit, but subs last forever and I would aim for the best I could get at my price range.

If you don't want to compare in home because of return shipping costs, I would vote for two SB13s. They seem to have more built in adjustments that would probably help you get a smooth response in your room with dual subs.

Either choice, I am already jealous!
 
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raynist

Junior Audioholic
I thought I had it narrowed down but now I'm definitely lost again.

SO...... If I had to pick a PAIR of subs that are made in America that together cost around $2,000 for music that go along with an SC-57 and B&W CM9's what do you all recommend?



Thanks again for all the quick advice everyone!
Chase home theater makes a dual 18 inch sealed sub with 1000w amp for about $1k. They are big and made in Erie Pa. They are a bit raw also, but you could get 2 of them (4 -18's) for right around your budget amount.

That being said, I am a huge svs fan (check my sig). I have 6 of their subs. I love the cylinders as they take up virtually no floor space. I have dual sb13's in my bedroom and they sound fantastic with music, however, my ported svs cylinders sound just as fantastic.
 
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randyc1

Enthusiast
Yeah, basically any sealed box sub - unless it is severely damped above 30Hz in order to keep the frequency response flat - is going to start to roll off at about 40Hz or higher. If it is just a straight up sealed design with no additional high-pass filter to make the deepest bass roll off even faster (eg. Emotiva's X-Ref subs have an additional HP filter on the bottom end), then you'll get a 12dB/octave roll-off on the bottom end.

To put it another way, if you look at the SVSound SB13-Plus DSP (which is a superb sealed sub), what you'll find is that it starts to roll-off up around 40Hz. The roll-off is not very steep - it's the expected 12dB/octave 2nd order slope. BUT, that means that down at 20Hz, the SB13-Plus DSP is 12dB quieter than it is at 40Hz or above. Subjectively, that sounds somewhere around 4 times less loud - half as loud and then half again. So it's a significant decrease in output at 20Hz vs 40Hz.

Now, with most music, there isn't much below 30Hz. But you talked earlier about wanting some "serious low end" - which I'm guessing might mean some synthetic music - dance music with synthetic bass and heavy bass beats. That stuff can be below 30Hz for sure.

Now, in a small or medium-sized sealed room, you do get some "room gain" - especially if the subwoofer is placed in the corner. That "room gain" can boost the low bass output. A sealed sub with a gradual 2nd order roll off sort of depends on this "room gain" if you want nice, flat, linear output all the way down to 20Hz.

The problem is, it's very hard to predict what is going to happen in your particular room, given that it does have openings to other parts of your home. It's not a sealed, perfect rectangle of a room, so it makes it very hard to predict how the bass is going to react. Personally, I just prefer to have a sub that plays nice and flat down to 20Hz all on its own. If your "room gain" ends up boosting the deepest bass too much, it's a simple matter of bringing down that response with some EQ. But if your sub cannot provide enough deep bass, no amount of EQ can make up for that. So that's just my personal taste, but I prefer a sub that plays flat in a semi-anechoic environment all the way down to 20Hz. I can easily "tame" the room response with EQ. I can't do anything if the bass energy isn't there to begin with!

To be perfectly honest, if you can stomach the idea of paying some return shipping charges, your absolute best solution is going to be to use those 30 day return options that most subwoofer companies offer and listen to some in your home for yourself. That's really the only way to know whether what you buy is going to deliver the performance that you're looking for!

If you go that route, order just one of the subs that you're considering. While you're auditioning, completely forget about practical placement of the sub - as in, don't worry at all about where the subwoofer is actually going to physically go once you find a pair that you're going to keep. Instead, while you're auditioning, just find the absolute best position in your room for that single subwoofer - which might be in some really awkward place out in the middle of your room! The point here is just to find out the best case scenario for the bass coming from that particular model of subwoofer. Once you find one that really delivers, you can use the second subwoofer in the pair along with the first one to get the sort of response in the room that you want while also physically positioning the two subwoofers in places that make sense and aren't physically in the way! The purpose of multiple subwoofers is to create a "phantom" subwoofer - much like a "phantom" center in a stereo image - that is "phantom" located at some spot in between your two actual subwoofers.

Anywho, if you're drawn towards a sealed sub, I'd highly recommend that you try a single SVSound SB13-Plus DSP. Like I said, audition it with no thought to actual placement. Just find the absolute best spot in your room for the audition - regardless of how awkward or ridiculous that position might be. Listen to the single SB13-Plus DSP in that spot and see if it delivers the kind of deep bass extension that you want. If it does not (ie. it mostly sounds great, but just doesn't play quite low enough for you), then you'll know that you want to use ported subs instead. If the SB13-Plus DSP doesn't play loud and low enough for you, no other sealed sub in the same price range is going to do better! That's why I recommend trying the SB13-Plus DSP first :)

If the SB13-Plus DSP DOES satisfy you, then try placing it in the spots where it might actually make sense for it to live for a long time. You might luck out and find that one is enough :) If it isn't, then hopefully the $2400 delivered price for a pair of SB13-Plus DSP will be OK by you, since I really do feel that the SB13-Plus DSP is just excellent - really cannot be beat for the price.

That's how I'd come at this problem, anyway. If you can stomach the idea of possibly paying to return the SB13-Plus DSP, getting one into your home for an audition will tell you everything you need to know.


How do companies like Rythmik claim only -3db at 14 hz with a sealed sub like F12 or F15 ??
 
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83benz240

Audioholic Intern
I really appreciate all the advice from everyone - Thank you.

I think I'm going to order 2 of the SVS SB-13 Ultra's.

Just to throw one more question out there because I know VERY LITTLE about this stuff - what would one SB-13 Ultra and one PB12-PLUS sound like? (one sealed box and one ported box)


Also, what kind of cables do you all recommend to connect SVS SB-13 Ultra's to a Pioneer SC-57?


Does anyone have any advice on how to learn about speakers, audio electronics, etc? I see terms like: octave, SPL, RMS, flat, Q, etc etc. and I have no idea what all these terms mean. Is there a good book or website you all recommend to walk me through at least the basics?

Thanks again everyone.
 
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F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
How do companies like Rythmik claim only -3db at 14 hz with a sealed sub like F12 or F15 ??
Great question, and it's a great example of how specs do NOT tell the full story about performance!

The question you must always ask when you see a claimed frequency response for a speaker is "at what volume?"

Typically, when a spec for a speaker's sensitivity is given (how efficient the speaker is), it will be based on using 1 Watt of power and measured at a distance of 1 meter (a little over 3 feet). Often, this same setup will be used to measure the frequency response. Especially if the stated sensitivity is given over the full 20Hz - 20 kHz frequency range. Sometimes though, the sensitivity is only measured at a lone 1 kHz tone, which is even more misleading!

For subwoofers, these same sensitivity ratings are not measured this way because, obviously, a subwoofer isn't meant to play the full frequency range! But the spec for the frequency response might still be at some very low output level - often a 2.83 Volt input - which barely taxes the subwoofer's amplifier at all and produces fairly low volume levels.

So can a sealed sub reach down to 14Hz within a +/-3dB window, producing a "flat" frequency response all the way from way down at 14Hz to way up at 100 or 200Hz? Sure! But it'll only do so at low volume levels, that's all.

It's not a lie, but it's also not a very good indication of what is really going to happen when you crank up the volume. Audioholics' newest subwoofer reviews do a great job of showing how the frequency response graph changes shape as you keep increasing the volume! On a great sub like the SVSound PB13-Ultra DSP, the shape of the output stays the same until you get to some crazy high output levels where the amplifier is literally running out of power and the sub just can't play any louder. But what you'll find on a lot of lesser subs is that the shape of the frequency response graph looks nice and flat at low volume levels, but quickly changes shape as you increase the volume. The deepest bass won't get any louder, but the lower mid-bass will. For a lot of music, that's fine, since most music doesn't have much below 30Hz in it. But if you're cranking your bass loud, and you're playing music that uses really deep bass tones (like dance music with synthetic bass tones or massive kick drums), then you'll run into that output compression really quickly.

Then there are subs like the Axiom EP500, which have really strict DSP processing that keeps the distortion down, but also clamps the output of the subwoofer. It'll play really flat and linear so long as you keep the volume below 90dB output from 2 meters away. It's already starting to clamp down just a bit at that volume, it's really at its best around 85dB or lower. As soon as you try to push above 90dB, that DSP kicks in and clamps down on the low bass output. The 20Hz output simply doesn't get any louder. You can crank the volume dial all you want, you're never going to get more than 90dB at 20Hz. On the one hand, that's good in the sense that you'll never damage the sub or hear any distortion coming from it. But it's bad in the sense that you've basically hit a "wall" at 90dB, even though frequencies above 20Hz will continue to get louder.

So Axiom can truthfully claim that the EP500 plays "flat" from 20Hz to 100 or 200Hz or whatever at the top end. It's absolutely true - so long as things never get louder than 90dB. If they DO get louder than 90dB, then Axiom would have to report that the EP500 plays flat from about 28Hz up to 100Hz at about 100dB output, but the 20-25Hz stuff never gets louder than 90dB. Saying +/-3dB from 18Hz - 150Hz looks more impressive, so that's what the specs will say. And it's true. But only below 90dB ;)

So the Rythmik claims are much the same. You'll get +/-3dB from 14Hz - 90Hz, but only at very low output levels. As soon as you turn the volume up, the shape of the graph will change. The 14Hz stuff won't get any louder at all, but the 50Hz stuff will get MUCH louder, and you'll wind up seeing the expected 12dB/octave 2nd order roll-off starting around 40Hz and sloping down from there ;)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I really appreciate all the advice from everyone - Thank you.

I think I'm going to order 2 of the SVS SB-13 Ultra's.

Just to throw one more question out there because I know VERY LITTLE about this stuff - what would one SB-13 Ultra and one PB12-PLUS sound like? (one sealed box and one ported box)


Also, what kind of cables do you all recommend to connect SVS SB-13 Ultra's to a Pioneer SC-57?


Does anyone have any advice on how to learn about speakers, audio electronics, etc? I see terms like: octave, SPL, RMS, flat, Q, etc etc. and I have no idea what all these terms mean. Is there a good book or website you all recommend to walk me through at least the basics?

Thanks again everyone.
Happy to help out if I can :)

Just to be absolutely clear, the sealed 13 incher from SVS is the SB13-Plus DSP. It's not part of the "Ultra" line. The "Ultra" line only has the PB13-Ultra DSP and PC13-Ultra DSP cylinder, both of which are ported - the box costing $2000 shipped and the cylinder costing $1700 shipped. So I believe you are considering the sealed SB13-Plus DSP, which is the sub that I was strongly recommending :)

Like I said, I really think you should order just one to start. I wouldn't expect you to be disappointed or dissatisfied in any way with the SB13-Plus DSP - it's a fantastic sealed sub! But all the same, getting just one is the safer way to proceed, just in case you somehow decide that you want to send it back - costs a lot less to return just one ;)

Also, as I detailed, using just one can tell you everything you need to know. If the one SB13-Plus DSP - placed ideally (not necessarily practically, but literally in the most ideal acoustic spot, which might be in the middle of your room!) if that one SB13-Plus DSP does NOT play low or loud enough for you, then you will know that you need a ported sub. I can tell you straight up that no other sealed sub at or near the same price is going to play lower or louder!

And if the lone SB13-Plus DSP placed ideally DOES satisfy you, then you can try placing it in one of the spots where it would actually make physical sense to place it there permanently, and just listen to how it sounds. Remember that the SB13-Plus DSP offers quite a lot of adjustment capability. You can really correct quite a lot of room issues with the built-in EQ and filters. So you might discover that one SB13-Plus DSP is all you need! Which would save you a lot of money!

Finally, if a lone SB13-Plus DSP placed in an actual practical location just doesn't do it for you, THEN you can get a second one and work the placement of the pair of subs to get the room response that you want. If there's some sort of discount that I don't know about for ordering two, just talk to the folks at SVS. I've found them to be extremely friendly and helpful and totally willing to work with customers. So regardless, I think giving them a call and talking with them is a very, very good idea!

As for subwoofer cables, all you need is a good RCA cable with proper shielding. Any of these RCA cables from Monoprice is perfect. You'll notice nothing under 50 feet costs more than $10! So, for the love of Pete, PLEASE don't think that you have to spend hundreds, or even just tens of dollars on cables! It just isn't the case. Remember, cables do not carry "music". Cables carry an electrical signal. The only change a cable can make to a signal is to degrade it somehow. Any cable maker claiming that their cables somehow "improve" the sound is talking total BS. We can measure everything about electrical signals with ridiculous precision and accuracy. Audiophiles like to talk about how we can't measure everything about the way we perceive sound. They use that reasoning to say that cables can somehow make a difference other than degrading the sound quality. They're right about us not being able to measure everything about human hearing. There's so much going on between our pair of ears and our brain and all the workings of the inner ear and the interplay between sight and sound and human perception - it really is virtually impossible to scientifically measure it all! But cables do NOT carry sound! They carry electrical signals. And we can measure those! Boy howdy can we measure those. Bottom line, so long as the cable is not seriously degrading the electrical signal somehow, it is doing its job perfectly. Monoprice's cables might be super cheap, but they're also perfectly fine! So don't fall into the trap of expensive cables and all the 100% BS claims that expensive cable makers (like Monster - who isn't even close to being the most expensive either!) use to try and fool people into buying their over-priced products!

If you absolutely, positively just HAVE to have literally the same cables that are used in professional studios, then head on over to bluejeanscable.com to get, literally, the best professional cables in the world. A 25 foot subwoofer cable from bluejeans will run you $42.50 and it will outlive you and the apocalypse. I do love bluejeans' cables personally - they're just the nth degree of quality construction. But you absolutely do not need to pay even that much, let alone hundreds!

Bluejeanscable.com also has a subsidiary company called TartanCable.com where they sell Chinese-made, extremely inexpensive, but perfectly performing cables. The Tartan subwoofer cables are right around the same price as Monoprice - sometimes a few cents more or less depending on the length. So if you like the look better of one or the other, the prices are certainly right!

As for learning about terms and Audio/Video stuff in general - well, Audioholics is a great resource :) I'd also point you over to hometheaterhifi.com and especially their "The Primers" section if you want to get some good definitions and basics.

I'd also point you to Auralex.com and their Acoustics 101 for some great reading on sound proofing and room acoustics.

And for sure check out the white paper on subwoofer numbers and locations

That should be a good start :) And please feel free to ask any questions here! We'll try to help if we can :)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Forgot to address your question about using two different subs together :eek:

To be perfectly honest, that would be a great thing to ask to the folks over at SVSound directly. Yet another great reason to give them a phone call and talk over your plans and desires with them :)

In general, using two different subs together can range anywhere from perfectly fine to very strange sounding. If the two subs are very close in performance, then it usually isn't a problem at all. But bass waves are very long and interact with each other A LOT. The biggest issue you'd run into when using a super tight sealed sub like the SB13-Plus DSP along with a very good, but ported sub like the PB12-Plus DSP - the biggest issue would be the very fast and sudden stops and starts of certain notes or bass sounds. Those stops and starts are called the "transients" - where the sound is literally transitioning from silence to sound or sound to silence. Transients are what give bass its "character". Some people will call it the "definition" or the "space between notes" or the "blackness" of the silence. It's what makes something sound "tight" or "clean". It's the delineation between two separate notes played at the same time - being able to tell those two notes apart, rather than them seeming to blend together into one lump.

A big part of transient response is delay or decay - how long after the signal for the note has stopped does the subwoofer keep "ringing" and producing sound, even though the signal has said to stop. With a sealed sub like the SB13-Plus DSP, there is almost no decay. The signal says stop and the sub stops!

With a ported sub, the main reason why a ported sub can play lower than a sealed sub that has the same amplifier power and the same size driver is because a ported sub uses the box of the subwoofer itself rather like the body of an acoustic guitar. The Box itself will resonate and produce sound. The length and the size of the ports determines the frequency at which the box will resonate. So a ported sub can be "tuned" to resonate at a desired frequency, which will greatly increase the loudness of the sub at that "tuning" frequency. For a sub like the PB12-Plus DSP, you can choose to "tune" the sub to 20Hz or 16Hz. You can also choose to plug it up completely and run it as a sealed sub. But, as a sealed sub, it actually won't play quite as loud or as deep as the smaller, less expensive SB13-Plus DSP! That's because the SB13-Plus DSP has more amplifier power and a larger driver.

When you have the ports open, the PB12-Plus DSP will resonate at its "tuning" frequency. As you can guess, when something resonates, it has a longer delay or decay of that low note. Basically, the signal says to stop making sound, but the subwoofer is still "ringing" all on its own.

So the bottom line is that, like most things, it's a case of the "weakest link". If you use a ported PB12-Plus DSP and a sealed SB13-Plus DSP together, you're only going to hear the PB12-Plus DSP. You won't get any of the benefit of the "tighter" sealed SB13-Plus DSP - unless you were to run the ported PB12-Plus DSP in sealed mode, which doesn't make any sense in terms of cost, size or performance. Instead, you'd be using the PB12-Plus DSP in one of its ported modes, and that would determine your sound quality. The SB13-Plus DSP might help to smooth out the frequency response in your room above 30-40Hz or so, but essentially all of the deepest below 30Hz stuff would be coming from the lone PB12-Plus DSP. And above 30Hz, where the "tighter" quality of the SB13-Plus DSP would shine, the PB12-Plus DSP's slightly longer decay is going to be the "weakest link" and basically "bring down" the SB13-Plus DSP's performance to the PB12-Plus DSP's level - which is still excellent, but not making the most of what the SB13-Plus DSP can offer.

So, to sum it up, you're best off using two identical subs. If you're giving up a little bit of loudness or the deepest bass in order to get the tightest transient response, then it doesn't make sense to muck that up with a sub that plays lower and louder, but not quite as tight. And if you're trying to play lower and louder, then you might as well get a pair of the "lower, louder" subs so that you are really doubling up on that lowest bass that you'd be after. Having a sub that can't keep up on the lowest stuff doesn't help you out, really. So, after all of that, I'd recommend that you just stick with an identical pair :)
 
theJman

theJman

Audioholic Chief
Great question, and it's a great example of how specs do NOT tell the full story about performance!

The question you must always ask when you see a claimed frequency response for a speaker is "at what volume?"
I pretty much already knew the vast majority of what you posted, but that was still one of the most lucid explanations of how all that works that I've read to date. Very nicely done.
 
N

NewHTbuyer

Audioholic
I really appreciate all the advice from everyone - Thank you.

I think I'm going to order 2 of the SVS SB-13 Ultra's.

Just to throw one more question out there because I know VERY LITTLE about this stuff - what would one SB-13 Ultra and one PB12-PLUS sound like? (one sealed box and one ported box)


Also, what kind of cables do you all recommend to connect SVS SB-13 Ultra's to a Pioneer SC-57?


Does anyone have any advice on how to learn about speakers, audio electronics, etc? I see terms like: octave, SPL, RMS, flat, Q, etc etc. and I have no idea what all these terms mean. Is there a good book or website you all recommend to walk me through at least the basics?

Thanks again everyone.
Congrats. Make sure to let us know what you think of them after you get them. Also, pics are cool.

As far as learning about this stuff, I found some great articles at Blu-Ray forum by BigDaddy that were really helpful. He also provides links at the bottom of each to additional resources.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Does anyone have any advice on how to learn about speakers, audio electronics, etc?
IMO the best place to start is:

Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms: Amazon.ca: Floyd Toole: Books

as for terminology, it's just a matter of asking us!!

Doublings of frequency... although technically you could start at 1hz, we generally look at them in terms of musical frequencies

Bottom octave - 16hz to 32hz - the most difficult to reproduce and the least audible, but the most tactile.
32hz to 63hz - the octave where most subwoofers are taxed
63hz to 125hz - this
125hz to 250hz - and this are the two octaves most responsible for bass impact.
250hz to 500hz - lower midrange
500hz to 1khz - midrange
1 to 2khz - this
2 to 4khz - and this are probably the octaves where our hearing is most sensitive. Upper midrange and lower treble.
4 to 8khz - the treble. Responsible for sibilance and often brightness.
8 to 16khz - the "Top octave". Sometimes considered 10khz to 20khz as well. Either way it's where our ears are least sensitive. We kind of "sense" these ultra high frequencies.

Sound pressure Level. loudness measured in db (db are a logarithmic scale). Real life is generally around 60db to 75db... every day noise like refridgerators tends to be around 30db to 40db... driving a car you hear noise around 80db, movies are, on average, about 85db with 105db PEAKS.

Root Mean Square - average. So 2volts RMS could easily be closer to 8 volt peaks. An amp that says 100watts RMS and another amp that says 100 watt peak for example, are saying VERY different things!!

Frequency response. Meaning that no part of the spectrum is being emphasized over another. So if the bass is there on the recording it will be there, but not emphatically IE with a non flat speaker that is designed for "extra bass". A flat speaker can have high SPL - loudness

Shape of the curve. All speakers are "resonant" systems and the speaker's behaviour around resonances are described by their "Q" - quality factorg. High Q generally means the system has a NON FLAT peak near the resonance, low Q generally means the resonance is barely contributing to the speaker's response.
 

randyc1

Enthusiast
Great question, and it's a great example of how specs do NOT tell the full story about performance!

The question you must always ask when you see a claimed frequency response for a speaker is "at what volume?"

Typically, when a spec for a speaker's sensitivity is given (how efficient the speaker is), it will be based on using 1 Watt of power and measured at a distance of 1 meter (a little over 3 feet). Often, this same setup will be used to measure the frequency response. Especially if the stated sensitivity is given over the full 20Hz - 20 kHz frequency range. Sometimes though, the sensitivity is only measured at a lone 1 kHz tone, which is even more misleading!

For subwoofers, these same sensitivity ratings are not measured this way because, obviously, a subwoofer isn't meant to play the full frequency range! But the spec for the frequency response might still be at some very low output level - often a 2.83 Volt input - which barely taxes the subwoofer's amplifier at all and produces fairly low volume levels.

So can a sealed sub reach down to 14Hz within a +/-3dB window, producing a "flat" frequency response all the way from way down at 14Hz to way up at 100 or 200Hz? Sure! But it'll only do so at low volume levels, that's all.

It's not a lie, but it's also not a very good indication of what is really going to happen when you crank up the volume. Audioholics' newest subwoofer reviews do a great job of showing how the frequency response graph changes shape as you keep increasing the volume! On a great sub like the SVSound PB13-Ultra DSP, the shape of the output stays the same until you get to some crazy high output levels where the amplifier is literally running out of power and the sub just can't play any louder. But what you'll find on a lot of lesser subs is that the shape of the frequency response graph looks nice and flat at low volume levels, but quickly changes shape as you increase the volume. The deepest bass won't get any louder, but the lower mid-bass will. For a lot of music, that's fine, since most music doesn't have much below 30Hz in it. But if you're cranking your bass loud, and you're playing music that uses really deep bass tones (like dance music with synthetic bass tones or massive kick drums), then you'll run into that output compression really quickly.

Then there are subs like the Axiom EP500, which have really strict DSP processing that keeps the distortion down, but also clamps the output of the subwoofer. It'll play really flat and linear so long as you keep the volume below 90dB output from 2 meters away. It's already starting to clamp down just a bit at that volume, it's really at its best around 85dB or lower. As soon as you try to push above 90dB, that DSP kicks in and clamps down on the low bass output. The 20Hz output simply doesn't get any louder. You can crank the volume dial all you want, you're never going to get more than 90dB at 20Hz. On the one hand, that's good in the sense that you'll never damage the sub or hear any distortion coming from it. But it's bad in the sense that you've basically hit a "wall" at 90dB, even though frequencies above 20Hz will continue to get louder.

So Axiom can truthfully claim that the EP500 plays "flat" from 20Hz to 100 or 200Hz or whatever at the top end. It's absolutely true - so long as things never get louder than 90dB. If they DO get louder than 90dB, then Axiom would have to report that the EP500 plays flat from about 28Hz up to 100Hz at about 100dB output, but the 20-25Hz stuff never gets louder than 90dB. Saying +/-3dB from 18Hz - 150Hz looks more impressive, so that's what the specs will say. And it's true. But only below 90dB ;)

So the Rythmik claims are much the same. You'll get +/-3dB from 14Hz - 90Hz, but only at very low output levels. As soon as you turn the volume up, the shape of the graph will change. The 14Hz stuff won't get any louder at all, but the 50Hz stuff will get MUCH louder, and you'll wind up seeing the expected 12dB/octave 2nd order roll-off starting around 40Hz and sloping down from there ;)
Thank you very much for that infomative response , had no idea of this was the way measurment were taken!! People must be very dissapointed with there actuall in room response at normal listening levels?

I'm researching for dual Subs for my HT , 70% HT 30 %Music , i have a buget of about $1300,00 for both ( 650.00each ) , room is 4000cf mostly closed except for staircase leading upstairs, I was initially thinking of Rythmik DIY sealed 12' kits , i do like tight musical bass but maybe you could recommend something ??
Thanks !!
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Thank you very much for that infomative response , had no idea of this was the way measurment were taken!! People must be very dissapointed with there actuall in room response at normal listening levels?

I'm researching for dual Subs for my HT , 70% HT 30 %Music , i have a buget of about $1300,00 for both ( 650.00each ) , room is 4000cf mostly closed except for staircase leading upstairs, I was initially thinking of Rythmik DIY sealed 12' kits , i do like tight musical bass but maybe you could recommend something ??
Thanks !!
It's actually surprising (to many people) just how little amplifier power is actually being used most of the time. If you look at most speaker sensitivity ratings, you'll see that they're somewhere in the range of 85-90dB or so. Some speakers are less efficient than that, some are more efficient, but most speakers tend to be somewhere in that range.

As I mentioned, that's when 1 Watt is being supplied and the measurement is being taken from 1 meter away. It's also supposedly in an anechoic environment. When you bring a speaker into any real room, you get reinforcement of the sound - ie. sound reflecting off of the walls, ceiling, floor and other surfaces - all of which combines to make the output of the speaker somewhat louder than what you would hear in an anechoic chamber. You'll generally get somewhere in the range of 3-6dB more output in an actual room.

With subwoofer, the "room gain" from that reflected sound can be significantly more since bass waves reflect so well and are so large and long. You might get 6-9dB more output than what you'd measure in an anechoic or quasi-anechoic environment.

Every time the output of any speaker goes up by 10dB, it requires 10 times the amount of amplifier power! So you can understand how the maximum amplifier power available can be very quickly reached!

As an example, when Audioholics measured the SVSound PB13-Ultra DSP subwoofer, they measured that in a quasi-anechoic environment from 2 meters away. The PB13-Ultra DSP was able to hit 115dB output levels in this setting, and that was the limit due to the amp, which can deliver a rated 1000 Watts of power. These are not exact figures, but good enough to get a rough idea. At 105dB output, the PB13-Ultra DSP would have been using about 100 Watts. At 95dB output, it's only using 10 Watts. And at 85dB output - which is reference level for the "average" loudness in a movie - the PB13-Ultra DSP is only using 1 Watt of power from the amp!

Most of the time, people don't listen at "reference" volume. Remember, the PB13-Ultra was out in a wide open field, with no surfaces around it except for the ground. Nothing to reinforce its sound. And the microphone was 2 meters (about 7 feet) away! In THAT setting, it's using a mere 1 Watt of power to deliver 85dB of output, which most people consider fairly loud! Most people have the volume in their homes down at an average level of only 75dB or so. For that little output, the PB13-Ultra DSP - in a wide open field - only uses 0.1 Watts!

Stick the subwoofer in a room and you'll get around 6dB more output from all of the room reflections and reinforcement. Suddenly, getting 85dB reference output levels, even sitting 12 feet away or something, uses barely 1 Watt of power! So it's not so crazy to state the specs and the frequency response using what seems like such a tiny amount of power. But you should also remember just how quickly the power demands increase as the volume level demands increase. You have to double the amount of power for every 3dB extra output. And use 10 times the power for every 10dB increase. If you've got something like a 300 Watt amp (like the one found in the Rythmik FV12, which is a great little $500 subwoofer), then if it produces 80dB using 1 Watt, it'll produce 90dB using 10 Watts, 100dB using 100 Watts and 103dB using 200 Watts and around 104-105dB using 300 Watts. Now you've maxed out its amp, but you're no where near the 115dB peaks that THX and movie theater reference subs are required to be able to hit.

So basically, using only 1 Watt to state the specs isn't crazy because the output using only 1 Watt can actually be fairly loud. But demands for power go WAY up and they go up quickly when you increase the volume ;)

Anywho, a 4000 cubic foot room is definitely classified as "large". If you watch more movies than music, I would suggest to you that output and deep bass extension are important. I wouldn't really suggest a sealed subwoofer in that price range for that size of room and for that material. That said, you still want nice, tight, clean, accurate bass for both movies and music. Most ported subs won't be quite as tight as a sealed sub, but that does not mean they have to be "flabby" in any way - not by a long shot! I would put a ported sub like the SVS PB12-Plus DSP or its cylinder sibling PC12-Plus DSP up against many sealed subs in its price class, and the ported Plus subs would give up very, very little in the way of tightness or accuracy, while kicking the pants off of those other subs in terms of deep bass output and sheer loudness. So don't get too hung up about the "delay" and tightness stuff that I was talking about. I was simply saying that if you're using a pair of subs, it doesn't make sense to use two different subs. You won't so much get the strengths of both subs. Instead, you'll get the "weakest" link, which does NOT mean poor performance, it just means that one can't play as low as the other, so you're not "doubling up" in any way there, and one is a little bit less tight, meaning the tighter sub doesn't bring the less tight one up, the less tight one "drags" the tighter one down. Just not the best use of two subs. But do NOT take that to mean that a ported sub cannot sound tight and clean and accurate. It's a matter of SMALL degrees of difference ;)

For a pair of subs in the $1300 range where you want great music performance, but play more movies than music, and you have a large 4000 cubic foot space to fill, my first recommendation goes straight to a pair of HSU Research VTF-3 MK4. Now, a pair of those big subs would be over your $1300 mark by a bit, especially after you factor in shipping. I'm not sure if your budget needs to account for shipping as well. The VTF-3 MK4 themselves are $700 each and shipping is $100 on each. I don't know where you're located, but HSU does allow you to pick up your subs if you're close to them in California and want to save the shipping cost.

A very strong alternative is the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX at $650 each and similar shipping costs. Dr. Hsu is involved in the design of Outlaw's subs and they perform rather similarly as a result. Audioholics did a full review of the LFM-1 EX, so that would be a very good thing to read if you want to get a nice idea of what the LFM-1 EX or VTF-3 MK4 can deliver. High marks :)

Those would be my picks for your situation. I think you'd be quite pleased with both the music and movie performance, especially at the price point. Even SVSound's least expensive NSD subs would be over your budget for a pair. A lone SVSound Plus model sub might do well though - it'd be worth consideration if you think a lone sub might work as would the ported 15" subs from Rythmik - although you should definitely check on availability of Rythmik's subs as their suppliers in Asia have been slowed by the unfortunate natural disasters over there. The Rythmik FV15HP is pretty much neck and neck with the SVSound PB12-Plus DSP in terms of performance - and is almost identical in cost once shipping is included. Great, great subs for that $1300-ish range.

But for a pair, I don't think you'll do better than the HSU VTF-3 MK4 or Outlaw LFM-1 EX. I think they fit the bill extremely well for your situation :)
 

randyc1

Enthusiast
It's actually surprising (to many people) just how little amplifier power is actually being used most of the time. If you look at most speaker sensitivity ratings, you'll see that they're somewhere in the range of 85-90dB or so. Some speakers are less efficient than that, some are more efficient, but most speakers tend to be somewhere in that range.

As I mentioned, that's when 1 Watt is being supplied and the measurement is being taken from 1 meter away. It's also supposedly in an anechoic environment. When you bring a speaker into any real room, you get reinforcement of the sound - ie. sound reflecting off of the walls, ceiling, floor and other surfaces - all of which combines to make the output of the speaker somewhat louder than what you would hear in an anechoic chamber. You'll generally get somewhere in the range of 3-6dB more output in an actual room.

With subwoofer, the "room gain" from that reflected sound can be significantly more since bass waves reflect so well and are so large and long. You might get 6-9dB more output than what you'd measure in an anechoic or quasi-anechoic environment.

Every time the output of any speaker goes up by 10dB, it requires 10 times the amount of amplifier power! So you can understand how the maximum amplifier power available can be very quickly reached!

As an example, when Audioholics measured the SVSound PB13-Ultra DSP subwoofer, they measured that in a quasi-anechoic environment from 2 meters away. The PB13-Ultra DSP was able to hit 115dB output levels in this setting, and that was the limit due to the amp, which can deliver a rated 1000 Watts of power. These are not exact figures, but good enough to get a rough idea. At 105dB output, the PB13-Ultra DSP would have been using about 100 Watts. At 95dB output, it's only using 10 Watts. And at 85dB output - which is reference level for the "average" loudness in a movie - the PB13-Ultra DSP is only using 1 Watt of power from the amp!

Most of the time, people don't listen at "reference" volume. Remember, the PB13-Ultra was out in a wide open field, with no surfaces around it except for the ground. Nothing to reinforce its sound. And the microphone was 2 meters (about 7 feet) away! In THAT setting, it's using a mere 1 Watt of power to deliver 85dB of output, which most people consider fairly loud! Most people have the volume in their homes down at an average level of only 75dB or so. For that little output, the PB13-Ultra DSP - in a wide open field - only uses 0.1 Watts!

Stick the subwoofer in a room and you'll get around 6dB more output from all of the room reflections and reinforcement. Suddenly, getting 85dB reference output levels, even sitting 12 feet away or something, uses barely 1 Watt of power! So it's not so crazy to state the specs and the frequency response using what seems like such a tiny amount of power. But you should also remember just how quickly the power demands increase as the volume level demands increase. You have to double the amount of power for every 3dB extra output. And use 10 times the power for every 10dB increase. If you've got something like a 300 Watt amp (like the one found in the Rythmik FV12, which is a great little $500 subwoofer), then if it produces 80dB using 1 Watt, it'll produce 90dB using 10 Watts, 100dB using 100 Watts and 103dB using 200 Watts and around 104-105dB using 300 Watts. Now you've maxed out its amp, but you're no where near the 115dB peaks that THX and movie theater reference subs are required to be able to hit.

So basically, using only 1 Watt to state the specs isn't crazy because the output using only 1 Watt can actually be fairly loud. But demands for power go WAY up and they go up quickly when you increase the volume ;)

Anywho, a 4000 cubic foot room is definitely classified as "large". If you watch more movies than music, I would suggest to you that output and deep bass extension are important. I wouldn't really suggest a sealed subwoofer in that price range for that size of room and for that material. That said, you still want nice, tight, clean, accurate bass for both movies and music. Most ported subs won't be quite as tight as a sealed sub, but that does not mean they have to be "flabby" in any way - not by a long shot! I would put a ported sub like the SVS PB12-Plus DSP or its cylinder sibling PC12-Plus DSP up against many sealed subs in its price class, and the ported Plus subs would give up very, very little in the way of tightness or accuracy, while kicking the pants off of those other subs in terms of deep bass output and sheer loudness. So don't get too hung up about the "delay" and tightness stuff that I was talking about. I was simply saying that if you're using a pair of subs, it doesn't make sense to use two different subs. You won't so much get the strengths of both subs. Instead, you'll get the "weakest" link, which does NOT mean poor performance, it just means that one can't play as low as the other, so you're not "doubling up" in any way there, and one is a little bit less tight, meaning the tighter sub doesn't bring the less tight one up, the less tight one "drags" the tighter one down. Just not the best use of two subs. But do NOT take that to mean that a ported sub cannot sound tight and clean and accurate. It's a matter of SMALL degrees of difference ;)

For a pair of subs in the $1300 range where you want great music performance, but play more movies than music, and you have a large 4000 cubic foot space to fill, my first recommendation goes straight to a pair of HSU Research VTF-3 MK4. Now, a pair of those big subs would be over your $1300 mark by a bit, especially after you factor in shipping. I'm not sure if your budget needs to account for shipping as well. The VTF-3 MK4 themselves are $700 each and shipping is $100 on each. I don't know where you're located, but HSU does allow you to pick up your subs if you're close to them in California and want to save the shipping cost.

A very strong alternative is the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX at $650 each and similar shipping costs. Dr. Hsu is involved in the design of Outlaw's subs and they perform rather similarly as a result. Audioholics did a full review of the LFM-1 EX, so that would be a very good thing to read if you want to get a nice idea of what the LFM-1 EX or VTF-3 MK4 can deliver. High marks :)

Those would be my picks for your situation. I think you'd be quite pleased with both the music and movie performance, especially at the price point. Even SVSound's least expensive NSD subs would be over your budget for a pair. A lone SVSound Plus model sub might do well though - it'd be worth consideration if you think a lone sub might work as would the ported 15" subs from Rythmik - although you should definitely check on availability of Rythmik's subs as their suppliers in Asia have been slowed by the unfortunate natural disasters over there. The Rythmik FV15HP is pretty much neck and neck with the SVSound PB12-Plus DSP in terms of performance - and is almost identical in cost once shipping is included. Great, great subs for that $1300-ish range.

But for a pair, I don't think you'll do better than the HSU VTF-3 MK4 or Outlaw LFM-1 EX. I think they fit the bill extremely well for your situation :)
Thanks again Firstreflextion, I really appreciate the time and thought you have taken to respond to my questions . I hope many people read it also for all the information you have given !!!
 
8

83benz240

Audioholic Intern
Guys please don't get upset or think that I'm ignoring so much good advice on here but I must admit I'm kind of back to square one. Tonight I called SVS with the intention of buying TWO x SB-13 PLUS's but after talking to them and explaining my situation they seemed to think ONE x PB-13 ULTRA would be something to consider. This brings me full circle back to considering ONE x Submersive HP. I really thought I had it figured out all the way until I was on the phone with SVS.



One thing that made complete sense to me was that the guy from SVS recommended that if I intended on really pushing my CM9's hard was to consider a separate amp and recommended the Emotiva amps. Do you have any opinions on these for driving my CM9's?

I asked the guy at Emotiva if would need a 4 channel amp since I have bi-amped CM9's and he said that I would NOT. He recommended putting the metal clips back in the wire posts and driving the pair of speakers with a 2 channel XPA-2. If this is true then what is the point of bi-amping a speaker?

What is meant when the amp says: "Output Devices: 12 per channel"??

And ANY explanation on these subjects for the amp would helpful as well (especially the (-3db) for frequency response):

Power Band Response: 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than .05db deviation at rated power
Broadband Frequency Response: (-3db): 5Hz to 150kHz
Amplifier Gain: 32db
Signal to Noise Ratio:
1 watt: >91db
Full Power: >110db

I would like to mention that the 3 phone calls I made tonight (SVS, Emotiva, and Mark Seaton) all made me feel very good with each of these companies. Each one seemed like experts in their field and were willing to take time to answer ALL my questions.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Guys please don't get upset or think that I'm ignoring so much good advice on here but I must admit I'm kind of back to square one. Tonight I called SVS with the intention of buying TWO x SB-13 PLUS's but after talking to them and explaining my situation they seemed to think ONE x PB-13 ULTRA would be something to consider. This brings me full circle back to considering ONE x Submersive HP. I really thought I had it figured out all the way until I was on the phone with SVS.



One thing that made complete sense to me was that the guy from SVS recommended that if I intended on really pushing my CM9's hard was to consider a separate amp and recommended the Emotiva amps. Do you have any opinions on these for driving my CM9's?

I asked the guy at Emotiva if would need a 4 channel amp since I have bi-amped CM9's and he said that I would NOT. He recommended putting the metal clips back in the wire posts and driving the pair of speakers with a 2 channel XPA-2. If this is true then what is the point of bi-amping a speaker?

What is meant when the amp says: "Output Devices: 12 per channel"??

And ANY explanation on these subjects for the amp would helpful as well (especially the (-3db) for frequency response):

Power Band Response: 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than .05db deviation at rated power
Broadband Frequency Response: (-3db): 5Hz to 150kHz
Amplifier Gain: 32db
Signal to Noise Ratio:
1 watt: >91db
Full Power: >110db

I would like to mention that the 3 phone calls I made tonight (SVS, Emotiva, and Mark Seaton) all made me feel very good with each of these companies. Each one seemed like experts in their field and were willing to take time to answer ALL my questions.
At 89 db it takes about 93(2), 96(4), 99(8), 102(16), 105(32)

32 watts to reach peak THX

for every meter beyond 1 you sit from the speakers double your wattage. Most receivers should get you to 3 meters at peak THX.

External amping would get you an extra meter, but does reduce the load on the receivers amplifier. I personally like the idea of the XPA-3 running the fronts and the receiver running the surrounds. Heat kills electronics and splitting the power between two amps should yield a nice balance.

In my opinion external amping should be used to increase the life of electronics and reduce the chance of failure.

With subs the more the merrier, but for a home theater the PB-13Ultra is among the best options. It has enough port to not compress too much. The Sealed subs should only be used if space limitation is a concern.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Guys please don't get upset or think that I'm ignoring so much good advice on here but I must admit I'm kind of back to square one. Tonight I calledb SVS with the intention of buying TWO x SB-13 PLUS's but after talking to them and explaining my situation they seemed to think ONE x PB-13 ULTRA would be something to consider.
the Sb-13 is a sealed sub so its lower output is limited by its volume displacement. That is, 13.5" x ~20-25mm (??) xmax is likely and in such a case overall sensitivity may suffer as well, making its output higher up amplofier or heat limited The main design aspect of it is to be small and work with room gain in a smaller room.

It really comes down to optimized flat frequency response in the musical range vs optimized output overall in a large room.
I would have chosen the dual HSU with 15" surface area x 20-30mm xmax personally. A pair of those should be pretty devastating...they should reach deeper than the svs sb13. The seatons are a wicked choice too, if you get two.

One thing that made complete sense to me was that the guy from SVS recommended that if I intended on really pushing my CM9's hard was to consider a separate amp and recommended the Emotiva amps. Do you have any opinions on these for driving my CM9's?
The amps will be fantastic but the speakers will still be crappy... for that reason i'm not sure if it's worth it.

I asked the guy at Emotiva if would need a 4 channel amp since I have bi-amped CM9's and he said that I would NOT. He recommended putting the metal clips back in the wire posts and driving the pair of speakers with a 2 channel XPA-2. If this is true then what is the point of bi-amping a speaker?
The point of bi amping a speaker is to avoid resistive attenuation in the critical power range from 20hz to 400hz. That is, filters distributing sound from bass to lower midrange occur before the amplification stage rather than after meaning optimized efficiency, improved linearity by being free from hystersis, optimal amp-driver interaction, and reduced heat build up. Unfortunately if your speakers are passive, they still have filter circuitry through which the amplified signal will pass through - totally defeating the point of bi amping. Bi amping is for those with external (active) crossover filters. Adding a subwoofer with its own amp is an example of bi amping.

What is meant when the amp says: "Output Devices: 12 per channel"??
It means lots of capability. don't be too concerned with marketing speak like this - focus on the meat and potatoes which is measured performance. Gene has measured the XpA-2 before.

Power Band Response: 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than .05db deviation at rated power
Means the amp is EXTREMELY flat in the audio octaves.

Broadband Frequency Response: (-3db): 5Hz to 150kHz
All electronics will roll off from flat eventually. this tells you the amp rolls off two octaves below, and three octaves above, the important frequencies.

Amplifier Gain: 32db
To drive an amp you need to feed it an audio signal. an amp amplifies the voltage. So a 70db signal will be amplified to 102db. Most amps are about 27db... meaning they need a stronger input voltage than the emotivas to get the same output. Lower input gain means less amplification of noise earlier in the signal, higher input gain means less chance of clipping the preamplifier outputs on crappy receivers.
 

randyc1

Enthusiast
Thanks again Firstreflextion, I really appreciate the time and thought you have taken to respond to my questions . I hope many people read it also for all the information you have given !!!



2 subs with very similar specifications like the Rythmik F12(sealed)370w-14hz (-2db)... and the LMF-1Plus(ported)350w - 18hz (-2db)....How different would the Output and Extension differ??
 
Last edited:

randyc1

Enthusiast
It's actually surprising (to many people) just how little amplifier power is actually being used most of the time. If you look at most speaker sensitivity ratings, you'll see that they're somewhere in the range of 85-90dB or so. Some speakers are less efficient than that, some are more efficient, but most speakers tend to be somewhere in that range.

As I mentioned, that's when 1 Watt is being supplied and the measurement is being taken from 1 meter away. It's also supposedly in an anechoic environment. When you bring a speaker into any real room, you get reinforcement of the sound - ie. sound reflecting off of the walls, ceiling, floor and other surfaces - all of which combines to make the output of the speaker somewhat louder than what you would hear in an anechoic chamber. You'll generally get somewhere in the range of 3-6dB more output in an actual room.

With subwoofer, the "room gain" from that reflected sound can be significantly more since bass waves reflect so well and are so large and long. You might get 6-9dB more output than what you'd measure in an anechoic or quasi-anechoic environment.

Every time the output of any speaker goes up by 10dB, it requires 10 times the amount of amplifier power! So you can understand how the maximum amplifier power available can be very quickly reached!

As an example, when Audioholics measured the SVSound PB13-Ultra DSP subwoofer, they measured that in a quasi-anechoic environment from 2 meters away. The PB13-Ultra DSP was able to hit 115dB output levels in this setting, and that was the limit due to the amp, which can deliver a rated 1000 Watts of power. These are not exact figures, but good enough to get a rough idea. At 105dB output, the PB13-Ultra DSP would have been using about 100 Watts. At 95dB output, it's only using 10 Watts. And at 85dB output - which is reference level for the "average" loudness in a movie - the PB13-Ultra DSP is only using 1 Watt of power from the amp!

Most of the time, people don't listen at "reference" volume. Remember, the PB13-Ultra was out in a wide open field, with no surfaces around it except for the ground. Nothing to reinforce its sound. And the microphone was 2 meters (about 7 feet) away! In THAT setting, it's using a mere 1 Watt of power to deliver 85dB of output, which most people consider fairly loud! Most people have the volume in their homes down at an average level of only 75dB or so. For that little output, the PB13-Ultra DSP - in a wide open field - only uses 0.1 Watts!

Stick the subwoofer in a room and you'll get around 6dB more output from all of the room reflections and reinforcement. Suddenly, getting 85dB reference output levels, even sitting 12 feet away or something, uses barely 1 Watt of power! So it's not so crazy to state the specs and the frequency response using what seems like such a tiny amount of power. But you should also remember just how quickly the power demands increase as the volume level demands increase. You have to double the amount of power for every 3dB extra output. And use 10 times the power for every 10dB increase. If you've got something like a 300 Watt amp (like the one found in the Rythmik FV12, which is a great little $500 subwoofer), then if it produces 80dB using 1 Watt, it'll produce 90dB using 10 Watts, 100dB using 100 Watts and 103dB using 200 Watts and around 104-105dB using 300 Watts. Now you've maxed out its amp, but you're no where near the 115dB peaks that THX and movie theater reference subs are required to be able to hit.

So basically, using only 1 Watt to state the specs isn't crazy because the output using only 1 Watt can actually be fairly loud. But demands for power go WAY up and they go up quickly when you increase the volume ;)

Anywho, a 4000 cubic foot room is definitely classified as "large". If you watch more movies than music, I would suggest to you that output and deep bass extension are important. I wouldn't really suggest a sealed subwoofer in that price range for that size of room and for that material. That said, you still want nice, tight, clean, accurate bass for both movies and music. Most ported subs won't be quite as tight as a sealed sub, but that does not mean they have to be "flabby" in any way - not by a long shot! I would put a ported sub like the SVS PB12-Plus DSP or its cylinder sibling PC12-Plus DSP up against many sealed subs in its price class, and the ported Plus subs would give up very, very little in the way of tightness or accuracy, while kicking the pants off of those other subs in terms of deep bass output and sheer loudness. So don't get too hung up about the "delay" and tightness stuff that I was talking about. I was simply saying that if you're using a pair of subs, it doesn't make sense to use two different subs. You won't so much get the strengths of both subs. Instead, you'll get the "weakest" link, which does NOT mean poor performance, it just means that one can't play as low as the other, so you're not "doubling up" in any way there, and one is a little bit less tight, meaning the tighter sub doesn't bring the less tight one up, the less tight one "drags" the tighter one down. Just not the best use of two subs. But do NOT take that to mean that a ported sub cannot sound tight and clean and accurate. It's a matter of SMALL degrees of difference ;)

For a pair of subs in the $1300 range where you want great music performance, but play more movies than music, and you have a large 4000 cubic foot space to fill, my first recommendation goes straight to a pair of HSU Research VTF-3 MK4. Now, a pair of those big subs would be over your $1300 mark by a bit, especially after you factor in shipping. I'm not sure if your budget needs to account for shipping as well. The VTF-3 MK4 themselves are $700 each and shipping is $100 on each. I don't know where you're located, but HSU does allow you to pick up your subs if you're close to them in California and want to save the shipping cost.

A very strong alternative is the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX at $650 each and similar shipping costs. Dr. Hsu is involved in the design of Outlaw's subs and they perform rather similarly as a result. Audioholics did a full review of the LFM-1 EX, so that would be a very good thing to read if you want to get a nice idea of what the LFM-1 EX or VTF-3 MK4 can deliver. High marks :)

Those would be my picks for your situation. I think you'd be quite pleased with both the music and movie performance, especially at the price point. Even SVSound's least expensive NSD subs would be over your budget for a pair. A lone SVSound Plus model sub might do well though - it'd be worth consideration if you think a lone sub might work as would the ported 15" subs from Rythmik - although you should definitely check on availability of Rythmik's subs as their suppliers in Asia have been slowed by the unfortunate natural disasters over there. The Rythmik FV15HP is pretty much neck and neck with the SVSound PB12-Plus DSP in terms of performance - and is almost identical in cost once shipping is included. Great, great subs for that $1300-ish range.

But for a pair, I don't think you'll do better than the HSU VTF-3 MK4 or Outlaw LFM-1 EX. I think they fit the bill extremely well for your situation :)

2 subs with very similar specifications like the Rythmik F12(sealed)370w-14hz (-2db)... and the LMF-1Plus(ported)350w - 18hz (-2db)....How different would the Output and Extension differ?
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
Those manufacturers specs of -2dB down at a certain frequency does not tell us anything about how loud it is. It just says that that particular sub is 2dBs lower at 14hz...but 2dBs below WHAT?

So between a sub that is -2dBs from 110dB (108dB) at 20hz vs. a sub that is -2dBs from 100dB (98dB) at 20hz, the first sub would be 10dB higher & therefore a louder sub.

Those measurements dont tell us HOW loud they are, just that the sub is a certain amount lower at that frequency.

I hope this makes sense to you, im not always the best in my explanations :)
 
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