Newbie needs advice - $2,000 Sub

8

83benz240

Audioholic Intern
I recently purchased a Pioneer SC-57 and two B&W CM9's. I love the sound but am seeing that I need a sub to finish it off. I am only interested in how this system will perform with music, not movies. My budget is roughly $2,000 and have been looking at:

1. SVS PB 13
2. JL f110
3. Seaton Submersive HP


I have been looking at these subs just from what I have seen on reviews and on the forums.

Would one of these be best for what I already have?

Any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Tom
 
theJman

theJman

Audioholic Chief
What are the dimensions of the room you'll be using them in? Often times two good subwoofers will be better than 1 great subwoofer. Depending upon the size of your room that might be the way to go.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
Out of those options the Submersive would be my first pick, followed by the PB13U.
 
P

PannTher

Junior Audioholic
Do you find the B&W ASW12CM to not be good value to match your CM9s?

I recommend something from: Hi-fi Glory

as that's the route I've gone. TC drivers with custom enclosures.

Mine match my CM8s: Custom Gallery

Top 3 are mine. Gorgeous.

It took me forever to choose something!

I am curious what your thoughts are on the ASW12CM though.
 
8

83benz240

Audioholic Intern
@theJman: The room is small - roughly 14x20x9 but it opens up into a small dining area and kitchen. I have been throwing house parties and want some serious low end, that still sounds good, to get people moving.

@PannTher: From what I've read, I think I get can get more for the money going with something without the B&W name. Also, I think those I listed are at least American owned, if not owned and made in America which is a plus for me. I haven't seen much said/reviewed on the ASW12CM especially compared to the ones I listed so I figured those may probably have more talk about them for good reasons - I would assume.

Thanks everyone for the quick replies - maybe I can get something to the house before the Christmas party season is over!
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
JTR Captivator 1000: 18" 1000watts $1599 :eek:

Its very "raw" in the looks department but if you want pure performance that will absolutely destroy then this is the sub for you!! You do need some space for it though. As far as space not much different than a PB-13U or VTF-15H.

Another option: Dual HSU VTF-15H subs for $1758. I own one. Two would be incredible. Very musical!!
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I would go for the Seaton Submersive from that list. Dual Hsu VTF15Hs or Epik Empires would be great as well, and be much cheaper, and might be better for house parties since dual subs tend to have better room coverage and will sound more even with a big listening area. The JTR Captivator looks like it has a ton of output, that is worth looking into for $2k as well.
 
H

Hocky

Full Audioholic
I recently purchased a Pioneer SC-57 and two B&W CM9's. I love the sound but am seeing that I need a sub to finish it off. I am only interested in how this system will perform with music, not movies. My budget is roughly $2,000 and have been looking at:

1. SVS PB 13
2. JL f110
3. Seaton Submersive HP


I have been looking at these subs just from what I have seen on reviews and on the forums.

Would one of these be best for what I already have?

Any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Tom
Just FYI, if you have a good dealer in your area, you can probably get into a JLf113 for about $2000.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I am only interested in how this system will perform with music, not movies
Then why are you spending $2000 on a single sub? The reason to pay this kind of money is if you want extension below 20hz. If it's for music, I recommend multiple small subs IE SVS PB12-NSD
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
The PB12-NSD is not many peoples idea of a small sub. And by your criteria, I think the Rythmik F15 would be a better for that role anyway, it's smaller, certainly more articulate, and two can be had for 2k.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Yeah, if this is about having great bass throughout your room for a party, and you're mostly focused on music, I'd have to recommend that you go with multiple subwoofers, rather than a lone, monster sub. You're looking for the bass to be as smooth and even throughout the entire room as possible, so multiple subs are certainly your friend here.

Given the size of the room and the need to be able to place multiple subs optimally for the most even and smooth coverage, I think you'd be better off getting several small, subs. For music, certainly the bulk of information is above 30Hz. For that reason, several small, sealed subs is a real option. However, if you're into synthetic house/trance/dubstep music or anything that uses really deep, sub-30Hz stuff, then it'd be worth your while to look for a subs that can hit deeper.

My vote would go towards a Rythmik setup, simply because of your price point. A pair of SVSound SB13-Plus DSP is over your budget, although if you can increase your budget, that's certainly an option to keep in mind!

But with Rythmik, you could go for a couple of sealed 15 inchers, or you could actually go with quad FV12! If you're after the most even and smooth bass throughout the entire room, and you'd like a little bit deeper extension than a sealed sub will give you, four FV12 could be a fantastic solution for you.
 
8

83benz240

Audioholic Intern
I thought I had it narrowed down but now I'm definitely lost again.

SO...... If I had to pick a PAIR of subs that are made in America that together cost around $2,000 for music that go along with an SC-57 and B&W CM9's what do you all recommend?



Thanks again for all the quick advice everyone!
 
8

83benz240

Audioholic Intern
I priced some PAIRS of subs. Does one pair stand out for the price/value or is it the "get what you pair for" deal and I have to set a budget?

1. Epik Empires $1,750
2. Rythmik Audio F15 $1,800 F15HP $2,300
3. HSU ULS-15 $2,200
4. SVS SB-13 Plus $2,400

I'm ASSUMING that a ported sub produces deeper, more powerful bass but a sealed box gives more accurate, tighter bass. I again ASSUME that a sealed box would be better for music.
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
The ULS-15 is an amazing XBL^2 sub!! I have sat & listened to dual ULS-15s at HSUs demo room & with music i didnt want to stop listening!! Those subs are so musical & powerful, its awesome. I havent heard the sealed SVS or sealed Rythmik. Im sure they are very comparable but i cannot vouch for them personally.

Two of the ULS subs would sound so amazing. Dont worry about the fact that your speakers & receiver are different brands. It does not matter with subs. I would almost never buy a sub & speakers from the same company. There are exceptions of course but most will tell you to get speakers that you love & get an amazing sub from a sub manufacturer. Todays receivers dont color the sound at all. You Pioneer is neutral & will tell it as it is.

My vote is for dual HSU ULS-15s!!! Price-per-performance is great!
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Yeah, basically any sealed box sub - unless it is severely damped above 30Hz in order to keep the frequency response flat - is going to start to roll off at about 40Hz or higher. If it is just a straight up sealed design with no additional high-pass filter to make the deepest bass roll off even faster (eg. Emotiva's X-Ref subs have an additional HP filter on the bottom end), then you'll get a 12dB/octave roll-off on the bottom end.

To put it another way, if you look at the SVSound SB13-Plus DSP (which is a superb sealed sub), what you'll find is that it starts to roll-off up around 40Hz. The roll-off is not very steep - it's the expected 12dB/octave 2nd order slope. BUT, that means that down at 20Hz, the SB13-Plus DSP is 12dB quieter than it is at 40Hz or above. Subjectively, that sounds somewhere around 4 times less loud - half as loud and then half again. So it's a significant decrease in output at 20Hz vs 40Hz.

Now, with most music, there isn't much below 30Hz. But you talked earlier about wanting some "serious low end" - which I'm guessing might mean some synthetic music - dance music with synthetic bass and heavy bass beats. That stuff can be below 30Hz for sure.

Now, in a small or medium-sized sealed room, you do get some "room gain" - especially if the subwoofer is placed in the corner. That "room gain" can boost the low bass output. A sealed sub with a gradual 2nd order roll off sort of depends on this "room gain" if you want nice, flat, linear output all the way down to 20Hz.

The problem is, it's very hard to predict what is going to happen in your particular room, given that it does have openings to other parts of your home. It's not a sealed, perfect rectangle of a room, so it makes it very hard to predict how the bass is going to react. Personally, I just prefer to have a sub that plays nice and flat down to 20Hz all on its own. If your "room gain" ends up boosting the deepest bass too much, it's a simple matter of bringing down that response with some EQ. But if your sub cannot provide enough deep bass, no amount of EQ can make up for that. So that's just my personal taste, but I prefer a sub that plays flat in a semi-anechoic environment all the way down to 20Hz. I can easily "tame" the room response with EQ. I can't do anything if the bass energy isn't there to begin with!

To be perfectly honest, if you can stomach the idea of paying some return shipping charges, your absolute best solution is going to be to use those 30 day return options that most subwoofer companies offer and listen to some in your home for yourself. That's really the only way to know whether what you buy is going to deliver the performance that you're looking for!

If you go that route, order just one of the subs that you're considering. While you're auditioning, completely forget about practical placement of the sub - as in, don't worry at all about where the subwoofer is actually going to physically go once you find a pair that you're going to keep. Instead, while you're auditioning, just find the absolute best position in your room for that single subwoofer - which might be in some really awkward place out in the middle of your room! The point here is just to find out the best case scenario for the bass coming from that particular model of subwoofer. Once you find one that really delivers, you can use the second subwoofer in the pair along with the first one to get the sort of response in the room that you want while also physically positioning the two subwoofers in places that make sense and aren't physically in the way! The purpose of multiple subwoofers is to create a "phantom" subwoofer - much like a "phantom" center in a stereo image - that is "phantom" located at some spot in between your two actual subwoofers.

Anywho, if you're drawn towards a sealed sub, I'd highly recommend that you try a single SVSound SB13-Plus DSP. Like I said, audition it with no thought to actual placement. Just find the absolute best spot in your room for the audition - regardless of how awkward or ridiculous that position might be. Listen to the single SB13-Plus DSP in that spot and see if it delivers the kind of deep bass extension that you want. If it does not (ie. it mostly sounds great, but just doesn't play quite low enough for you), then you'll know that you want to use ported subs instead. If the SB13-Plus DSP doesn't play loud and low enough for you, no other sealed sub in the same price range is going to do better! That's why I recommend trying the SB13-Plus DSP first :)

If the SB13-Plus DSP DOES satisfy you, then try placing it in the spots where it might actually make sense for it to live for a long time. You might luck out and find that one is enough :) If it isn't, then hopefully the $2400 delivered price for a pair of SB13-Plus DSP will be OK by you, since I really do feel that the SB13-Plus DSP is just excellent - really cannot be beat for the price.

That's how I'd come at this problem, anyway. If you can stomach the idea of possibly paying to return the SB13-Plus DSP, getting one into your home for an audition will tell you everything you need to know.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I priced some PAIRS of subs. Does one pair stand out for the price/value or is it the "get what you pair for" deal and I have to set a budget?

1. Epik Empires $1,750
2. Rythmik Audio F15 $1,800 F15HP $2,300
3. HSU ULS-15 $2,200
4. SVS SB-13 Plus $2,400

I'm ASSUMING that a ported sub produces deeper, more powerful bass but a sealed box gives more accurate, tighter bass. I again ASSUME that a sealed box would be better for music.
If you can dual ULS-15s they would be my choice.
 
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