newbie here lookin for a powerful sub for a powerful setup

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paulman65

Enthusiast
thanks alot bro, ur info really helped me out alot, ill have pics soon of my setup when its all complete
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
The problem

whats wrong with my front speakers they are crisp n clean and clear i got the bose acoustimass 10 series IV
Bose publish no useful specifications for your Bose Acoustimas, apart from dimensions.

However I modeled the best driver I could find that would fit in those cubes. This driver is likely significantly better than the ones in your Bose. The results of this model will illustrate the problem of matching these speakers to any sub. Here is the simulation.

Name: W3-315E
Type: Standard one-way driver
Company: Tag Band
No. of Drivers = 1
Fs = 100 Hz
Qms = 5.51
Vas = 1.68 liters
Cms = 1.155 mm/N
Mms = 2.193 g
Rms = 0.25 kg/s
Xmax = 1.25 mm
Xmech = 1.875 mm
P-Dia = 63.83 mm
Sd = 32 sq.cm
P-Vd = 0.004 liters
Qes = 0.57
Re = 6.6 ohms
Le = 0.2 mH
Z = 8 ohms
BL = 3.994 Tm
Pe = 10 watts
Qts = 0.52
no = 0.284 %
1-W SPL = 87 dB
2.83-V SPL = 87.52 dB
-----------------------------------------
Box Properties
Name:
Type: Closed Box
Shape: Prism, square
Vb = 0.0384 cu.ft
Qtc = 0.657
QL = 20
F3 = 164.4 Hz
Fill = heavy

Now the thing I want you to really note is that these drivers start rolling off at 164 Hz. That is the F3 point. Your Bose cubes are more likely than not worse than this.

Now your current sub has down firing woofers, so nothing is going to radiate to the room above 100 Hz. The sub is a transmission line so the port output will extend to a higher frequency than a standard ported sub, However it will not reach 164 Hz.

The problem is, you have a significant frequency gap between the sub and the cubes. This is going to apply to virtually any other sub you might use. I suspect that the problem you are blaming on the sub is in a large part due to this problem.

The other thing is that the small cubes are inevitably power limited. The speakers I modeled have a power handling of 10 watts RMS, which for a 3 inch driver is very good. However my modeling program shows its power below 500 Hz becomes significantly reduced due to cone excursion issues. This is bound to be true due to the relationship of the cone diameter and the wave lengths of the sounds being generated.

So if you obtain a powerful sub, you won't be able to use its power, because it has to balance the sound pressure levels the cubes can generate.

I hope I have explained this in a way you can understand.

Bottom line is that the laws of physics do not change for Dr. Amar Bose, no matter the intensity of the ad man's copy.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Bose publish no useful specifications for your Bose Acoustimas, apart from dimensions.

However I modeled the best driver I could find that would fit in those cubes. This driver is likely significantly better than the ones in your Bose. The results of this model will illustrate the problem of matching these speakers to any sub. Here is the simulation.

Name: W3-315E
Type: Standard one-way driver
Company: Tag Band
No. of Drivers = 1
Fs = 100 Hz
Qms = 5.51
Vas = 1.68 liters
Cms = 1.155 mm/N
Mms = 2.193 g
Rms = 0.25 kg/s
Xmax = 1.25 mm
Xmech = 1.875 mm
P-Dia = 63.83 mm
Sd = 32 sq.cm
P-Vd = 0.004 liters
Qes = 0.57
Re = 6.6 ohms
Le = 0.2 mH
Z = 8 ohms
BL = 3.994 Tm
Pe = 10 watts
Qts = 0.52
no = 0.284 %
1-W SPL = 87 dB
2.83-V SPL = 87.52 dB
-----------------------------------------
Box Properties
Name:
Type: Closed Box
Shape: Prism, square
Vb = 0.0384 cu.ft
Qtc = 0.657
QL = 20
F3 = 164.4 Hz
Fill = heavy

Now the thing I want you to really note is that these drivers start rolling off at 164 Hz. That is the F3 point. Your Bose cubes are more likely than not worse than this.

Now your current sub has down firing woofers, so nothing is going to radiate to the room above 100 Hz. The sub is a transmission line so the port output will extend to a higher frequency than a standard ported sub, However it will not reach 164 Hz.

The problem is, you have a significant frequency gap between the sub and the cubes. This is going to apply to virtually any other sub you might use. I suspect that the problem you are blaming on the sub is in a large part due to this problem.

The other thing is that the small cubes are inevitably power limited. The speakers I modeled have a power handling of 10 watts RMS, which for a 3 inch driver is very good. However my modeling program shows its power below 500 Hz becomes significantly reduced due to cone excursion issues. This is bound to be true due to the relationship of the cone diameter and the wave lengths of the sounds being generated.

So if you obtain a powerful sub, you won't be able to use its power, because it has to balance the sound pressure levels the cubes can generate.

I hope I have explained this in a way you can understand.

Bottom line is that the laws of physics do not change for Dr. Amar Bose, no matter the intensity of the ad man's copy.
I am not going to defend Bose here (sigh), but the data isn't quite the appropriate example. This would be the case if one was trying to substitute a different sub yes, but that is not the only way to add a sub to a system that uses Bose. The bass module has the crossover built into it and it transitions correctly to the cubes so there may be a slight dip, but no real gap. The bass module does not go low, it is intended to pick up the slack of the cubes in the lower midrage, so it is more of a "midbass" unit rather than a true sub (which is why it is called a bass module not a sub). You MUST use the bass module with the cubes since it houses the crossover for the mains, you simply add an additional sub to your system via sub pre-out. The Bose setup normally has you send a full range signal (large speaker setting, no x-over) to it via speaker level through a harness. By setting the speaker config to small, the Bose system gets a limited range and the rest is sent to the sub - by allowing the receiver to handle the crossover you remove the gap between the sub and the Bose system.
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks

Thanks for that useful info. However, I'm still more than a tad suspicious of the design philosophy.

The main problem is that the bass module has down firing woofers, and the port is the termination of a transmission line. I don't know if Bose damp their line by stuffing it. Do you? No stuffing is shown in their pictures, but I assumed it was stuffed.

Anyhow I counted three folds. One of the purposes of the folds apart from making the enclosure compact is to prevent radiation of sound above around 100 Hz from the port. Now the line is a standard tapered closed pipe, and will generate odd harmonics of the fundamental. These are distortion products and apart from that will be bumps in the response not smooth. A properly designed line is damped to take care of these odd harmonic products.

Now if the line is not damped and lets say the line fundamental is 45 Hz a fair guess, then it will radiate the third harmonic at 135 Hz and the fifth at 225 Hz

The intensity falls as the harmonics increase in frequency. But if the object is to use the odd harmonic output from the port to fill in the gap to the cubes, that is not good practice, to say the least. Odd harmonic distortion has a very unpleasing effect. So if it is damped there is a gap, if not then it is less than satisfactory.

Your point about using the sub with the module is well taken and something I had not considered. He would have to do that if he wants to add a sub, based on your excellent post.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I'm not sure how well or not well the bass module is designed. Yes, I do believe is is partially stuffed. Not sure about the 10, but my father has the AM-15 package and it uses a large port rather than a trasmission line and there is stuffing in that one for sure. What I can say about the system is it appears to only lack in the top end giving the system a fairly warm sound overall. There does not seem to be a midrange "gap" as one would expect, however there is a bit of bloat in the lower regions, likely due to the tuning of the bass module - possibly somewhere around 40-50Hz (could be room induced as well, I never took measurements). I am sure the bass module is designed the way it is because it performs well within the midbass range, and even dominates the overall sound of the package, because their target audience is people who have not heard a well built system with a good sub.

One of my father's channels on his crossover died, verified by swapping channels; I am about to take the module apart to see if I can repair it. Will take pics during this...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm not sure how well or not well the bass module is designed. Yes, I do believe is is partially stuffed. Not sure about the 10, but my father has the AM-15 package and it uses a large port rather than a trasmission line and there is stuffing in that one for sure. What I can say about the system is it appears to only lack in the top end giving the system a fairly warm sound overall. There does not seem to be a midrange "gap" as one would expect, however there is a bit of bloat in the lower regions, likely due to the tuning of the bass module - possibly somewhere around 40-50Hz (could be room induced as well, I never took measurements). I am sure the bass module is designed the way it is because it performs well within the midbass range, and even dominates the overall sound of the package, because their target audience is people who have not heard a well built system with a good sub.

One of my father's channels on his crossover died, verified by swapping channels; I am about to take the module apart to see if I can repair it. Will take pics during this...
I auditioned the flagship Bose system in June, on trip to San Francisco. I was at a loose end in a shopping mall while my wife was shopping. I went into a Bose Store and had their Home Theater demo. The small speakers were placed in large boxes and made to look like big speakers. I was not fooled. I agree the HF was deficient, but that's better than too much. Speech clarity was adequate without being spectacular. I thought the bass more than over warm and frankly boomey. I was always very aware of the "bass module." Part way through the demo the true size of the speakers were revealed

At the end of the demo I gave my impressions to the young salesman who was crestfallen. I think he thought he was selling the finest system on Earth.

The problem remains however on how to advise Paulman65. He obviously is not happy with it. May be he has come to the wrong conclusion about what the problem is? Anyhow this system has been a significant expenditure for him. He has asked, "What is wrong with the Bose." Now that puts us on the spot doesn't it?

I really feel the heart of the problem, is the integration of the "bass module" and the cubes. There is no getting away from the fact that if the line is stuffed, unstuffed or partially stuffed, it is not going to be a solution to the problem. I bet Bose have done enough tests with inexperienced listeners, they know which solutions gives rise to the least complaints.

According to your most useful information, Paulman65 is stuck with this unsatisfactory cube/module integration come what may.

Further trying to integrate a sub with that type of system sounds like a nightmare. Unless he has a lot of luck, the odds are against him being happy.

There are just too many issues involving phase, time and group delay, that it would be a real "hat trick." to get an acceptable result. There are so many variables here that results are totally unpredictable. There is more than an outside chance adding a sub will make things worse. I hate to see him throw good money after bad.

My personal advice is that Paulman65, enjoys his system for the reasons he bought it, while he builds up funds to start again, and sell the Bose for the best price he can get.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
heres the link by the way for that sub for sale the guy that claims its 20 inchs http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/ele/496997155.html
Need a much better picture to see the data plate on that sub.
Perhaps it is 20" wide? or high? Certainly the driver is not 20"
It would be better to know the designation number of that sub, then it can be checked on the Velo web site, etc.
But, hey, it is $300, so jump on it.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
We have some bass junkies on this forum, but generally there is always a concern about the quality of the bass as well. So, most of the subwoofers listed are a mixture of sq and spl. Many of the subs listed earlier in this thread would be more rewarding to us than what I'm going to recommend for your tastes:

If extreme bass is what you want, you're probably best using a pair of folded horn subwoofers or large PA subwoofers.

Passive dual 18" subwoofer Yahama makes:


You'd still need an amp. But, that's probably the direction a bass junkie would want to go. You need to move a lot of air to make a lot of bass. For basically 1,000 after pricing shopping the sub and amp, you'd have enough bass to stun small animals.

Need a much better picture to see the data plate on that sub.
Perhaps it is 20" wide? or high? Certainly the driver is not 20"

Yeah, I have a Velodyne HGS-18" and the box in that picture looks a lot smaller. It would also be a lot more expensive, my HGS-18" retailed for $3,000 and I think the new Digital Drives are even more expensive.
 
P

paulman65

Enthusiast
heres my over all setup


i got the

Sony 1080p 52" Widescreen LCD HDTV** (KDL52XBR4)

Harman Kardon: AVR 247 (reciver)

7.1-Channel A/V Receiver With HDMI™ Switching and Audio/Video Processing
350W: 50 watts x 7 (All channels operating at full-rated power), THD <0.07%, 20Hz - 20kHz into 8 ohms
595W: 85 watts x 7, THD <0.07%, @1kHz into 8ohms


The Acoustimass 10 Series IV surround sound


Monster High Definition Power Center (HDP2400) (power bar)

monster hdmi wires,
 
P

paulman65

Enthusiast
thay guy emailed me back and said the sub is a 18 inch not 20 anyone know wha model this sub is
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
thay guy emailed me back and said the sub is a 18 inch not 20 anyone know wha model this sub is
What is your budget for a subwoofer?

I just recently found out about Epik Subwoofers. They seem very interesting.
 
P

paulman65

Enthusiast
weill i dont have a set budged for a used one around 300 ish and if theres somthing good and a n b sound i have a connection there where imight get it cheaper
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
weill i dont have a set budged for a used one around 300 ish and if theres somthing good and a n b sound i have a connection there where imight get it cheaper
Dude. Do us all a favor and slow down with your typing. It will make your posts MUCH easier to read. Also, punctuation is your friend. ;)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I just recently found out about Epik Subwoofers. They seem very interesting.
Yes, but it seems beyond his budget at this time. Maybe in a few years down the line when he is ready for the next upgrade:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
.... some guy in my area is selling a velodyne 20 inch sub that puts out 1300 watts for 300 bucks, thanks
If you can visit this person, audition that sub to make sure it is in working condition otherwise it is expensive to have it repaired, this sub seems to be a DD18, with 18" driver that uses a 1250 watt amp. You can also confirm this on your visit. If everything checks out, jump on this for $300, it is a steal of a deal.
Take a pickup truck as it is heavy, over 100lbs. :D Need He-Man to help you.;)
 
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