Newbie Audyssey Question

[connta]

Simple answer is your room/speaker acoustics are being read by mic/Audyssey/avr that way....

No sub!?

If i wanted simple answers i'd go to AVS forums Jokes aside, if anyone can shed any light on the matter i would appreciate knowing.

And yeah, no sub. These Jamos (Onkyo too!) are bass heavy speakers, even without a sub my furniture rattles and i really do not need any more rumble, before this system i had a logitech z5500 and that system was 75% sub so i got the house shaking out of my system. I get that a sub would give more precise bass and i could turn it down all the way not to rumble as much but then the very capable bass from the fronts is going to waste and i'm paying for a sub that ill turn down to minimum.

I am thinking about changing my system to a better speaker set with 5 small speakers and a sub like Q Acoustics 3010i 5.1. That would give me better placement options, there is slight issue with left front placement that i cannot overcome due to room layout but if left front became a small speaker with 120Hz crossover the placement would not matter at all since i see deviations from the placement at 80-100Hz range and the sub could be placed where the right front is now which is acoustically perfect and gives a very flat response. Ill probably snag 3010i 5.1 as soon as i see it discounted etc.

 

[TechToys2]

Yep, i gotta put all these related pieces in my mind. I just wasn't expecting levels as low as audyssey set them. I'll get it eventually.

I found this to be helpful.

Speaker Trim Levels

Trim levels are just relative numbers. There is nothing wrong (or different) about negative trims. The point of calibrating levels is to (1) achieve the same level for every speaker and (2) play at...

audyssey.zendesk.com

 

[HTnewb]

I found this to be helpful.

Speaker Trim Levels

Trim levels are just relative numbers. There is nothing wrong (or different) about negative trims. The point of calibrating levels is to (1) achieve the same level for every speaker and (2) play at...

audyssey.zendesk.com

Thanks TechToys2, interesting and informative read.

 

[lovinthehd]

If i wanted simple answers i'd go to AVS forums Jokes aside, if anyone can shed any light on the matter i would appreciate knowing.

And yeah, no sub. These Jamos (Onkyo too!) are bass heavy speakers, even without a sub my furniture rattles and i really do not need any more rumble, before this system i had a logitech z5500 and that system was 75% sub so i got the house shaking out of my system. I get that a sub would give more precise bass and i could turn it down all the way not to rumble as much but then the very capable bass from the fronts is going to waste and i'm paying for a sub that ill turn down to minimum.

I am thinking about changing my system to a better speaker set with 5 small speakers and a sub like Q Acoustics 3010i 5.1. That would give me better placement options, there is slight issue with left front placement that i cannot overcome due to room layout but if left front became a small speaker with 120Hz crossover the placement would not matter at all since i see deviations from the placement at 80-100Hz range and the sub could be placed where the right front is now which is acoustically perfect and gives a very flat response. Ill probably snag 3010i 5.1 as soon as i see it discounted etc.

Actually there are some extensive threads there about Audyssey particularly.

I wouldn't call your speakers bass heavy at all but I may be much more a bassoholic than you A couple subs would be my first step and not that QAcoustics model.

Glad the zendesk answer techtoys linked on trim levels helped....

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Just a quick note... A lot of advice on things. But remember, you can make adjustments manually to your preference.

If you have a sna USB, go to your settings. Find the Save/Load function and back up your current status.

Go back and tinker some. I kniw you're older, but the basic functions here are distance and volume. Distance should be perfectly fine. Audessey always measures these very well. So try adjusting (+/-) on your individual speaker levels.

I only saw a few speakers, and no heights, so before making any major changes, see if you can drop a level on this, tweak a level on that...

Don't change your crossovers. Those seem perfectly fine IMO. But suing be afraid to experiment some.

If you think you've dorked it all up. Put the USB back in and this time instead of "save" select "load" an do back to where you started.

Audessey doesn't have to be the end all be all. But it usually is a great starting place, and for some will work perfect the first time.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

It is an Onkyo TX-NR646 with Jamo 506 HCS 3 5.0 system (no sub).

What kinda bugs me the most is that the center is actually detected as much CLOSER than it really is, i dont understand how anything can make a channel appear closer, further i would get but closer i do not... especially that all other speakers are detected spot on in the same room and all the speakers in the system are equally placed (as you can deduce from the position measurements). The center is on top of a wooden AV rack angled upwards slightly, 4 degrees, so that the imginary line from the tweeter hits the prime listening position exactly (when i sit there and place the laser on the center it hits me basically on the nose). The measurement mic is setup to emulate the same position as my head when i sit there. Could it be that the positioning is that "perfect" that some waveguide technology from the center tweeter focuses in such a way that the speaker appears closer? I dont know much about acoustics so just a shot in the dark.

Just taking a shot. But IIRC Audyssey uses the measurement of the front left speaker first, and all the other speakers are calculated/measured off that. That could be another reason for the CC anomaly. As for the Jamo’s I would not say they’re bass heavy. With dual 6.5” woofers and a listed FR starting at 45hz, I would say they’d probably be nice and punchy. And the Logitech sub wouldn’t really qualify as much either since they tend to be boomy and one note wonderish. Room construction shouldn’t be overlooked.
My first guess is your room is on a suspended floor, or upstairs of a split level, with a lowish ceiling. These rooms are very easy to energize with bass, and actually make taming bass down to be smooth and linear very difficult some times. Especially if the speakers are corner loaded, or the LP is against the wall, this activates all available room modes and will make bass sound heavy. Also bass collects at walls so sitting against the wall is bad for bass.
PLUS the suspended floor acts like a drum head and will resonate, adding to the bass stew. I’ve set up systems in these kinds of rooms and it can be really hard to tame bass down.
If you’re in a different kind of room, like a concrete basement, or something then maybe we just have different ideas of bass! Lol
Point is, the room is at least as important as the speakers.

 

[connta]

Well, i agree with everything said. Yeah it is 2nd floor room (solid concrete tho) and the ceilings are a bit under the standard i think and the FL is very corner loaded.

One thing tho, this Onkyo doesnt have Audyssey (thought it did) but something called AccuEQ. Same thing but as im reading, a bit inferior in processing power. How that actually reflects to its ability to setup speakers im not sure but it does a decent job in "ironing" the speakers to a flat-ish response. Do all of these solutions take FL as a reference? Since thats my worst positioned speaker lol. Also, dont think theres a save/load function either for this AccuEQ, pretty sure there isnt.

Here are some REW measurements i took with the mic that came with Onkyo. Measurements were taken for both fronts toghether same as backs so their reference lvl is 85 dB and center is 82 dB. I also ironed out a bit manually (mostly 1-10kHz range) since these are aslo very bright and AccuEQ did not iron that out (did great for the midrange tho). There are also sponges in FL ports since it is againt the wall and near the corner, i really cant position it differently, it is a room that is long but not too wide. Without the sponges theres a huge bloom in bass at 60-100Hz on FL and no amount of eq fixes it but the sponges work wonders. If anyone would throw a comment at REW graphs as im a REW virgin and im not sure i know exactly what im doing.

Also, another thing bugs me, these Jamos are rated down to 45Hz but as you see from the graph they have strong sound even on 25Hz, anyone have an idea whats that about?

EDIT: i kinda hijaked the thread more than i wanted, any mod to transfer this into its own thread like "REW measurements comments"?

 

[PENG]

Here are some REW measurements i took with the mic that came with Onkyo. Measurements were taken for both fronts toghether same as backs so their reference lvl is 85 dB and center is 82 dB. I also ironed out a bit manually (mostly 1-10kHz range) since these are aslo very bright and AccuEQ did not iron that out (did great for the midrange tho). There are also sponges in FL ports since it is againt the wall and near the corner, i really cant position it differently, it is a room that is long but not too wide. Without the sponges theres a huge bloom in bass at 60-100Hz on FL and no amount of eq fixes it but the sponges work wonders. If anyone would throw a comment at REW graphs as im a REW virgin and im not sure i know exactly what im doing.

Also, another thing bugs me, these Jamos are rated down to 45Hz but as you see from the graph they have strong sound even on 25Hz, anyone have an idea whats that about?

It is hard to comment on your graphs because:

- cannot see the X-axis
- no info on the smoothing used
- The mic that came with Onkyo would have been calibrated for its AccuEQ thing, not really going to be accurate enough for what you are trying to do with REW.

 

[connta]

What do you mean "cannot see the X axis", both frequency and dB scales are visible, arent they? Its 20-20kHz on the frequency (X) axis. The smoothnes used is 1/6 octave per REW manual.

The mic from Onkyo is fairly accurate, i had assistance with a professional SPL meter B&K 2250 that i used to calibrate the Onkyo one in REW and also to check a bit on the results, Onkyo aint far off really, speaking generally. The B&K 2250 while being a pro level SPL meter aint suitable for this kind of tweaking, you cant reproduce data like you can with REW, at least not easily so it would take really long time to simulate REW but you can check individual tones with high precision and compare that with the cheaper mic which i did. As stated, its not far off, B&K 2250 is also way too sensitive and smallest nudges (or operator proximity for example) can throw it off by +-2dB which isnt ideal when you are constantly changing things or trying to iron out something for said 2 dB. Onkyo mic proved to be way more stable in that regard albeit not as precise but combining those two with AccuEQ this is what i got.

 

[PENG]

What do you mean "cannot see the X axis", both frequency and dB scales are visible, arent they? Its 20-20kHz on the frequency (X) axis. The smoothnes used is 1/6 octave per REW manual.

The mic from Onkyo is fairly accurate, i had assistance with a professional SPL meter B&K 2250 that i used to calibrate the Onkyo one in REW and also to check a bit on the results, Onkyo aint far off really, speaking generally. The B&K 2250 while being a pro level SPL meter aint suitable for this kind of tweaking, you cant reproduce data like you can with REW, at least not easily so it would take really long time to simulate REW but you can check individual tones with high precision and compare that with the cheaper mic which i did. As stated, its not far off, B&K 2250 is also way too sensitive and smallest nudges (or operator proximity for example) can throw it off by +-2dB which isnt ideal when you are constantly changing things or trying to iron out something for said 2 dB. Onkyo mic proved to be way more stable in that regard albeit not as precise but combining those two with AccuEQ this is what i got.

Sorry, I clicked on the graph and could not see the freq axis. Clicked on the name then I can see it.

I did not say the Onkyo mic is not accurate. It is however, most likely (like the Audyssey mic) calibrated to do an accurate job when used with AccuEQ but may not be suitable for use with REW to do what you want to to, that's all I said. I use the word likely, because without doing a comparison, or email them about it, I may not be right, but I am sure that is the case with the Audyssey mic. It is hard to imagine, though again I can't be sure, that Onkyo's mic would be different in that sense. If you have already verified the Onkyo mic with your B&K 2250 across the whole audio band of 20 to 20,000 Hz, and you found it accurate, then that is good and I assume wrong..

For the 20 to 200 Hz range, please use no smoothing, or 1/12 smoothing at the most. The 1/6 smoothing graphs still show some major dips in the bass range, but again, no smoothing should give a better picture obviously.

 

[connta]

Neither did i say it is accurate but fairly accurate it is. I checked it across whole band at 1/3 octave (no software module for FFT sadly) and it was mostly good, 1-2 dB off B&K 2250, i mean thats really good enough for calibrating ~350e speakers.

No smoothing graphs are a mess, as expected, so ill post 1/12 which arent way off 1/6. Funny, REW manual says to use 1/6 for tweaking and it really worked out great when using manual EQ. If i lowered 100Hz in Onkyo manual EQ for 2 dB next measurement would show basically exactly -2 dB bent graph at 100Hz and it kept that "quality" across bands making manual tweaking a breeze, not once has it over/undershot after an adjustment. When things line up 1:1 like that usually they arent way off, and thats what i consider good enough at this level of gear really.

Can you possibly comment on a high level at ~25Hz that these speakers produce, i mean if i let them run wild they can shake the house just as well as Z5500 sub did. Sure, the corner amplifies bass but still that peak is huge to be just the corner, shouldnt bass drop off completely after 40Hz?

The graphs are with a bit different manual EQ, here the bass is more tamed. There are huge dips, i understand these are not good but i also do not understand how bad they actually are. There i would appreciate a comment.

 

[lovinthehd]

FWIW Onkyo gave up Audyssey quite a few years back, think it was 2013? From what I've noticed the first speaker measured may be the right speaker, but believe it is the entire set of first mic positions that are taken together rather than being keyed only to the first speaker position. Not sure why you think bass should drop off particularly at 40hz?

 

[JAB11]

I too got all wrapped around the axle on this stuff and needed a simpler explanation. There is a boutique home theater/audio shop with a couple of owner/experts here in town and their advice helped me. I ran Audyssey, then took a tape measure and measured the distance from the speakers to the listening position and adjusted the distances manually in the AVR, and they suggested setting your front L/R speaker levels to 0, then go through the separate speaker level controls in the AVR to get the center to balance with the L/R, then adjust your surrounds to your liking. I still have the Reference/Dynamic EQ turned to "on", maybe I altered the Audyssey thing a bit adjusting the distances and speaker levels but it sounds good to me.

 

[connta]

FWIW Onkyo gave up Audyssey quite a few years back, think it was 2013? From what I've noticed the first speaker measured may be the right speaker, but believe it is the entire set of first mic positions that are taken together rather than being keyed only to the first speaker position. Not sure why you think bass should drop off particularly at 40hz?

To my understanding the lowest frequency the speaker can produce at a meaningful volume level should be the lower value that is entered in the spec sheet. For budget floorstanders thats usually around 40Hz (45 in case of Jamo S506) and all frequencies below are output at gradually lower volume than the reference level, to the point they dont contribute to the overall level (cannot be heard) at all. Is this not correct?

 

[lovinthehd]

To my understanding the lowest frequency the speaker can produce at a meaningful volume level should be the lower value that is entered in the spec sheet. For budget floorstanders thats usually around 40Hz (45 in case of Jamo S506) and all frequencies below are output at gradually lower volume than the reference level, to the point they dont contribute to the overall level (cannot be heard) at all. Is this not correct?

You mean the f3 response number? That's just 3dB down....and will continue to roll off. Whether in a meaningful spl range....and what spec sheet....

 

[connta]

Yeah, like that, it is 3 dB down and then should continue to roll off but as we see from my graph it does not, at 40Hz the value is pretty low, 5 dB lower compared to reference and after that i was expecting to have even lower values at lower frequencies yet we have a peak at 27Hz that is actually now 5 dB above reference (10 dB above 40Hz value). Should that happen, is that typical?

Also, based on the measurements and considering the price of ~350e for the 5.0 set (new, years ago) how would you rate these speakers, good, bad, decent, terrible? Im thinking of an upgrade but considering should i get a sub (so i can cut <80Hz from the mains to not get the bloom from corners) or maybe just a new complete system like Q Acoustics 3010i which satellites would be driven at crossover of 80Hz anyway.

 

[PENG]

Neither did i say it is accurate but fairly accurate it is. I checked it across whole band at 1/3 octave (no software module for FFT sadly) and it was mostly good, 1-2 dB off B&K 2250, i mean thats really good enough for calibrating ~350e speakers.

No smoothing graphs are a mess, as expected, so ill post 1/12 which arent way off 1/6. Funny, REW manual says to use 1/6 for tweaking and it really worked out great when using manual EQ. If i lowered 100Hz in Onkyo manual EQ for 2 dB next measurement would show basically exactly -2 dB bent graph at 100Hz and it kept that "quality" across bands making manual tweaking a breeze, not once has it over/undershot after an adjustment. When things line up 1:1 like that usually they arent way off, and thats what i consider good enough at this level of gear really.

Can you possibly comment on a high level at ~25Hz that these speakers produce, i mean if i let them run wild they can shake the house just as well as Z5500 sub did. Sure, the corner amplifies bass but still that peak is huge to be just the corner, shouldnt bass drop off completely after 40Hz?

The graphs are with a bit different manual EQ, here the bass is more tamed. There are huge dips, i understand these are not good but i also do not understand how bad they actually are. There i would appreciate a comment.

Just a few points:

- If you do more research, you will find that for the low range, say from 300 Hz and below, for analyze purposes you can do a better job using no smoothing, 1/48, or 1/24. 1/12 is not preferred but still adequate but definitely not 1/6. 1/6 is fine for a full range display, obviously it is easier on the eyes and it is probably close to how we hear.

- Your graphs show a slightly higher level at around the 25 Hz point, it is a typical "room mode" issue. Do a search on room mode if you want to learn more about it. Again, such a moderate peak is not something you need to worry about.

- Bass don't drop off completely after 40 Hz even if the speaker's f3 is 50 or even 60 Hz as your REW graphs revealed. How it dropped would depend on how the speaker react with the room, the crossover, and the way you "EQ" it.

From what I can see from those graphs, you/and your AVR have done a very decent job, considering what you have. Now just sit back and enjoy the music/movies.

 

[connta]

Thank you so much for the replay, when you are a beginner in a field its good to be validated that you are moving in the right direction. Yeah, i did the work, it does sounds mile better (but thats subjective) than on "default" but im glad the graphs (objective proof) also correlate with what i hear.

Im always up for learning more and you threw a few very good pointers. In the meantime i figured out what the "room mode" is and as we can see mine is around 27Hz. It is not a thing to worry per se but it can throw off things in movies, like afterburners in top gun which seem to be at exactly matched with room mode. I eq'd it out. Also got a sub on BF, PB-1000, and i had to eq ~27Hz on it too because on it it was really peaking, like someones gonna call the cops peaking.

Cheers once more!