Newb Power conditioning question

[andytk5]

What are you guys using for power conditioning/regulation and surge protection. Are those Monster Power boxes worth it? What about the APC AV C Type Power Filters?
thanks,
andy

 

[Alex2507]

You're in the Amps forum. The power conditioning forum is about 7 floors down but here's a link.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=11

Once you get there you can "search this forum" for power conditioners or surge protecters and spend the rest of eternity reading about it. I think the main gist of it is you don't need power conditioning and you better have surge protection. $50-$100 worth should take care of it. Read away.

Edit: We don't need no stinking Monsters. If you really want one, I'll sell you mine. See sig. J/K

 

[andytk5]

Ah, very sorry. Thank you for the link and the info good sir!

 

[Alex2507]

No worries. You're welcome and enjoy yourself. You're gonna love it here.

 

[fmw]

I use plug strips. Myy AC service doesn't need conditioning.

 

[forevermorning]

I use plug strips. Myy AC service doesn't need conditioning.

Do you know whats the quickest (cheapest) way in finding out wheater or not you need conditioning?

 

[JerryLove]

I use plug strips. Myy AC service doesn't need conditioning.

What neither AC strips nor "power conditioning" will help with are the voltage drops that are potentially damaging to electronics. As Alex suggested, see the proper forum section.

 

[highfigh]

What neither AC strips nor "power conditioning" will help with are the voltage drops that are potentially damaging to electronics. As Alex suggested, see the proper forum section.

Actually, many conditioners do cover bad drops in voltage and if you look at the input range of the one in the link, it shows 85VAC-137VAC, has battery backup for 8 outlets and powers down safely when the voltage conditions are dangerous.

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=F1500-UPS_PRO

 

[JerryLove]

Actually, many conditioners do cover bad drops in voltage and if you look at the input range of the one in the link, it shows 85VAC-137VAC, has battery backup for 8 outlets and powers down safely when the voltage conditions are dangerous.

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=F1500-UPS_PRO

I wonder if there isn't an issue of confusing labeling. I would call something with a battery a UPS (which the linked item seems to agree with ("F1500-UPS")) rather than a "power conditioner"; though power conditioning is something that a UPS (generally) does, as is surge suppression.

I run UPSs on all my major electronics.

 

[highfigh]

I wonder if there isn't an issue of confusing labeling. I would call something with a battery a UPS (which the linked item seems to agree with ("F1500-UPS")) rather than a "power conditioner"; though power conditioning is something that a UPS (generally) does, as is surge suppression.

I run UPSs on all my major electronics.

It doesn't need the battery until the power goes out and a UPS doesn't need to do anything for surges, but they tend to combine the two because line voltage is dirty all over and it should be filtered when using anything more precise than a light bulb. A UPS is just a battery and a 120V inverter connected to the receptacles through some means of isolation. The battery is kept at a good charge level when the power is on but is only called for when the service is interrupted.

The basic way to deal with wide voltage fluctuations is to use a transformer that steps the voltage up so it will still produce more than 130VAC when the line is at the minimum design voltage (let's say 85VAC), assuming the regulator and any other losses will account for the extra 10VAC. Then, put a regulator and filter after the transformer to maintain 120VAC +/- 1 when the line is at the 85VAC-137VAC like this model. The expense comes in when really good transformers and regulators are used, not to mention anything like extreme spike suppression.

 

[JerryLove]

It doesn't need the battery until the power goes out and a UPS doesn't need to do anything for surges, but they tend to combine the two because line voltage is dirty all over and it should be filtered when using anything more precise than a light bulb. A UPS is just a battery and a 120V inverter connected to the receptacles through some means of isolation. The battery is kept at a good charge level when the power is on but is only called for when the service is interrupted.

While I won't deny that such a system may exist (a battery that switches on and has no power-conditioning built in), I haven't touched one and I'm not sure it would make sense to build that way.

The "brown out" is a perfect example of why. If your circuit is either-or (battery or live) then a brown out will eat power at the same rate as a blackout; and if you *can* run through the battery (there are a couple different paths) I can't image why you would ever not.

Similarly, without conditioning in the system, you are begging for issues with where the switch-over point should be. Set it too high and you'll unnecessarily loose power: set it too low, and your equipment will fail.

But it seems we are "six of one, a half-dozen of the other". If adding power conditioning to a battery turns a UPS into a power-conditioner, then adding the battery to line conditioning turns a power-conditioner into a UPS.

Perhaps like a "receiver", which is a combination decoder, A-D converter, switch, pre-amp, amp, and tuner (to name a few), we need to invent some new words.

 

[highfigh]

While I won't deny that such a system may exist (a battery that switches on and has no power-conditioning built in), I haven't touched one and I'm not sure it would make sense to build that way.

The "brown out" is a perfect example of why. If your circuit is either-or (battery or live) then a brown out will eat power at the same rate as a blackout; and if you *can* run through the battery (there are a couple different paths) I can't image why you would ever not.

Similarly, without conditioning in the system, you are begging for issues with where the switch-over point should be. Set it too high and you'll unnecessarily loose power: set it too low, and your equipment will fail.

But it seems we are "six of one, a half-dozen of the other". If adding power conditioning to a battery turns a UPS into a power-conditioner, then adding the battery to line conditioning turns a power-conditioner into a UPS.

Perhaps like a "receiver", which is a combination decoder, A-D converter, switch, pre-amp, amp, and tuner (to name a few), we need to invent some new words.

The battery would kick in without any noticeable effect because of the management in the UPS. I put one on a DVR and power supply for some security cameras and when the electrician interrupted the power to upgrade the service entrance, I was watching him and there is no visible sign of him doing anything, other than what's on the video.

In the setup I described, it's either-or. Below 85VAC or above the maximum, it works and below that, it shuts off because less than 85VAC is a serious problem for the grid, anyway.

A battery is useless without the inverter for powering audio and video equipment. You can't add power conditioning to a battery and call it a UPS. AV equipment needs AC voltage, not the DC from a battery and that's where the inverter comes in. Also, inverters aren't super efficient and if the choice is lots of AC from the power company or using a battery/inverter, unless you have solar/wind/water power, it's not practical

 

[JerryLove]

Perhaps I'm inspecific:

A pair are attached to my home theater: http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA1500&total_watts=50

Note this this performs both power conditioning and emergency power supply, but is actually referred to as a UPS.

Please also note that the link you provided in the post yesterday referred to itself as a UPS.

Here's what I'm running at work: http://www.emerson.com/sites/Network_Power/en-US/Products/Product_Detail/Product1/Pages/Liebert_Npower.aspx?L2=Large+Facility+UPS&L2Link=/Large_Facility_UPS.aspx&L1=AC+Power+/+UPS&SNL1=AC+Power+/+UPS&SNL2=Large+Facility+UPS+-+AC+Power&8109C=United States

Obviously, more than I'm using at home but interesting both in that it does use an inverter and in that the manufacturer still calls it a UPS.

So. To my original point: in the nomenclature I am familiar with, if it has a battery to provide power, and performs power-conditioning, it's a UPS (with power conditioning), not a power conditioner (with a UPS).

In the scheme of things, that's semantics. It's not a point I wanted to belabor. I was confused by your initial post in that the description and name didn't line up.

To my later point: I would worry that a ATS (necessary to move from one power-source (line) to another (battery) without line-conditioning, and without having always had the battery as part of the circuit, would result in a short, but significant interruption to the current.

 

[highfigh]

Perhaps I'm inspecific:

A pair are attached to my home theater: http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA1500&total_watts=50

Note this this performs both power conditioning and emergency power supply, but is actually referred to as a UPS.

Please also note that the link you provided in the post yesterday referred to itself as a UPS.

Here's what I'm running at work: http://www.emerson.com/sites/Network_Power/en-US/Products/Product_Detail/Product1/Pages/Liebert_Npower.aspx?L2=Large+Facility+UPS&L2Link=/Large_Facility_UPS.aspx&L1=AC+Power+/+UPS&SNL1=AC+Power+/+UPS&SNL2=Large+Facility+UPS+-+AC+Power&8109C=United States

Obviously, more than I'm using at home but interesting both in that it does use an inverter and in that the manufacturer still calls it a UPS.

So. To my original point: in the nomenclature I am familiar with, if it has a battery to provide power, and performs power-conditioning, it's a UPS (with power conditioning), not a power conditioner (with a UPS).

In the scheme of things, that's semantics. It's not a point I wanted to belabor. I was confused by your initial post in that the description and name didn't line up.

To my later point: I would worry that a ATS (necessary to move from one power-source (line) to another (battery) without line-conditioning, and without having always had the battery as part of the circuit, would result in a short, but significant interruption to the current.

Oh, so this is the reply I lost when I closed Firefox. Too bad- it took about 20 minutes to write it. Oh, well.

I think you were asking about power conditioners working with wide voltage swings and then I linked to a conditioner with UPS, right? Let me know if I'm correct because I think I used an extreme example of something that does both.

I'm waiting for an answer from Furman about their conditioners with no backup, to find out what the swing it for them to supply 120VAC.

As far as the battery, that's only used to supply the DC voltage so the inverter can create AC voltage and does nothing else. The inverter is only that but they have some kind of filtering for its output and this is only for when the power goes out. The inverter may be on at all times but it's not in-circuit because it doesn't want to see 120VAC at its output, so they isolate them and use a power management system (chip) to switch over in the event of the power going out.

A conditioner may have a battery backup and a battery backup may have conditioning, but it's not mandatory for either.

Let me know if I got it right this time.

 

[highfigh]

A pair are attached to my home theater: http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA1500&total_watts=50

Note this this performs both power conditioning and emergency power supply, but is actually referred to as a UPS.

Please also note that the link you provided in the post yesterday referred to itself as a UPS.

Here's what I'm running at work: http://www.emerson.com/sites/Network_Power/en-US/Products/Product_Detail/Product1/Pages/Liebert_Npower.aspx?L2=Large+Facility+UPS&L2Link=/Large_Facility_UPS.aspx&L1=AC+Power+/+UPS&SNL1=AC+Power+/+UPS&SNL2=Large+Facility+UPS+-+AC+Power&8109C=United States

Obviously, more than I'm using at home but interesting both in that it does use an inverter and in that the manufacturer still calls it a UPS.

Looks like the Emerson would be better for the theater. IMO.

130KVA? That oughta do it!

 

[JerryLove]

Let me know if I got it right this time.

As far as I know, every thing you've said on the matter is completely correct. I've enjoyed your posts. Our point of contention is trivial

Looks like the Emerson would be better for the theater. IMO.

130KVA? That oughta do it!

Yes, but try hauling that thing around. Even disassembled (no batteries installed) one of the parts was 2 tons. We had to install extra bracing in the floor

 

[highfigh]

As far as I know, every thing you've said on the matter is completely correct. I've enjoyed your posts. Our point of contention is trivial

Yes, but try hauling that thing around. Even disassembled (no batteries installed) one of the parts was 2 tons. We had to install extra bracing in the floor

What is the actual point of contention- the battery backup with conditioning vs conditioner with battery backup thing?

If I had one of those Emerson units, it wouldn't go anywhere.