new to vinyl

[Haaspac]

I'm 27 and new to vinyl, and I'm trying to get it to play back correctly. I have a stanton t.62 record player plugged into a behringer pp400 preamp using a monoprice red/white RCA cable, which is then plugged into my pioneer elite vsx 21txh receiver (on the back the CD plugin, again with a monoprice red/white RCA cable), and the sound comes out of my DIY visaton experience v20 towers. I know I need a ground wire to go from the record player to the preamp, because when I touch both at the same time, the hum completely disappears from the speakers. With any other source be it blu-rays or ps3 games there is no audible hiss or hum at all ever at any volume setting. I listen to metal so the records I'm using are The Black Dahlia Murder's Nocturnal and Ritual LP's. When everything is running, There is very little bass output at all and I have to turn the volume up to -6.0 to get a decent level of overall volume, which I can still talk to my girlfriend at normal speaking levels. It "sounds" like something just isnt plugged in all the way, even though I have double and triple plugged and replugged everything in. Without the preamp obviously it sounds terrible. As a comparison my crappy $5 samsung earbuds I have plugged into my phone put out more audible bass with the same album on mp3 than my huge Visaton towers. I can't believe this is how vinyl is supposed to sound considering this article Are Vinyl Recordings Better than Digital? says vinyl and digital sound basically the exact same.

What have I done wrong?

 

[afterlife2]

What needle do you have? You might need to upgrade it.

 

[Haaspac]

Stanton 500v3 cartridge

 

[afterlife2]

You might want to upgrade to this. I have it and sounds fantastic and loud: Ortofon 2M Red cartridge,Ortofon 2M Red phono cartridge,Ortofon 2M Red MM phono cartridge,Ortofon 2M Red phonograph cartridge,Ortofon 2M phono cartridge,Ortofon phono stereo cartridge,Ortofon phono cartridge
I'll let the others recommend a good phono amp, but you need something like this: Amazon.com: Behringer PP400 Ultra-Compact Phono Preamp: Musical Instruments

 

[Irvrobinson]

I can't believe this is how vinyl is supposed to sound considering this article Are Vinyl Recordings Better than Digital? says vinyl and digital sound basically the exact same.

What a poorly written, poorly constructed article with multiple cases of falsehoods! I'd ignore it completely.

As for your sound quality problems, you most likely have a bad connection somewhere in the signal path from the cartridge to the receiver. I'd check every connection and every wire. It is less likely, but still possible, that the Behringer or the Pioneer are defective in some way, but I'd bet on the cabling. That's one of the challenges of vinyl systems, there are a lot of connections and wires.

 

[Haaspac]

but you need something like this: Amazon.com: Behringer PP400 Ultra-Compact Phono Preamp: Musical Instruments

Thats exactly the preamp I have that I listed in the original post.

 

[Haaspac]

What a poorly written, poorly constructed article with multiple cases of falsehoods! I'd ignore it completely.

As for your sound quality problems, you most likely have a bad connection somewhere in the signal path from the cartridge to the receiver. I'd check every connection and every wire. It is less likely, but still possible, that the Behringer or the Pioneer are defective in some way, but I'd bet on the cabling. That's one of the challenges of vinyl systems, there are a lot of connections and wires.

When I get home I will quadruple check all connections including the 4 wires on the cartridge. Also I will switch out the RCA cable from the behringer to the receiver to a 1/4"-to-RCA and use the 1/4" output from the preamp. Maybe that will do something.

 

[afterlife2]

Thats exactly the preamp I have that I listed in the original post.

Whoops missed that. Do you have another needle to try it If it's not the cables?

 

[Haaspac]

Whoops missed that. Do you have another needle to try it If it's not the cables?

Nope But it's a brand new cartridge I just bought last Saturday.

 

[slipperybidness]

I'm 27 and new to vinyl, and I'm trying to get it to play back correctly. I have a stanton t.62 record player plugged into a behringer pp400 preamp using a monoprice red/white RCA cable, which is then plugged into my pioneer elite vsx 21txh receiver (on the back the CD plugin, again with a monoprice red/white RCA cable), and the sound comes out of my DIY visaton experience v20 towers. I know I need a ground wire to go from the record player to the preamp, because when I touch both at the same time, the hum completely disappears from the speakers. With any other source be it blu-rays or ps3 games there is no audible hiss or hum at all ever at any volume setting. I listen to metal so the records I'm using are The Black Dahlia Murder's Nocturnal and Ritual LP's. When everything is running, There is very little bass output at all and I have to turn the volume up to -6.0 to get a decent level of overall volume, which I can still talk to my girlfriend at normal speaking levels. It "sounds" like something just isnt plugged in all the way, even though I have double and triple plugged and replugged everything in. Without the preamp obviously it sounds terrible. As a comparison my crappy $5 samsung earbuds I have plugged into my phone put out more audible bass with the same album on mp3 than my huge Visaton towers. I can't believe this is how vinyl is supposed to sound considering this article Are Vinyl Recordings Better than Digital? says vinyl and digital sound basically the exact same.

What have I done wrong?

If you have a cable problem, the first place to look is those 4 wires connecting tone arm to the cart. Small and fragile and also easy to accidentally plug them into the wrong spot. Check you RCAs with another source to be sure RCAs aren't the problem, then use known-good RCAs only.

From what you describe, I am curious as to whether or not you set up the turntable correctly (or at all). Turntables aren't "plug and play", you need to spend some time getting the angle right and the balance and the proper tracking force. If you didn't do that by following some guide, then this is almost certainly the problem.

Can you get it up to acceptable volume at all? I have an Elite 82TXS and I can say for sure that I have to turn the volume up quite a bit to get it to reasonable levels as compared to volume setting of other sources. However, I use the phono built into my Pio, and that is just the nature of the beast for phono signals (smaller voltages fed to the preamp that need to be amplified). If you can turn the volume up enough to get reasonable levels, then I don't see a problem, just be sure to return it to lower level before you switch the source.

Next, make sure that you don't have some DSP settings turned on for that input.

 

[TLS Guy]

Nope But it's a brand new cartridge I just bought last Saturday.

One thing you have to understand about vinyl and analog reproduction in general, is that there is a lot that can go wrong, and in the hands of the inexperienced usually does.

The other issue is that digital systems are resilient, mechanical systems are not.

So you can't get good results on the cheap.

You have a cheap turntable and a nasty DJ scratch cartridge. You have a very cheap preamp, that is quite honestly too cheap to be any good.

In addition the set up of a turntable has to be absolutely obsessional. Tracking force, tracking angle, and offset have to be adjusted perfectly and a protractor used for the latter. The turntable must be perfectly level.

Very small errors make for very poor sound. I don't believe the equipment you have purchased is capable of high fidelity reproduction.

With digital equipment sound quality between low and high priced units is small. With Vinyl there are huge improvements as you move up the food chain.

 

[Grador]

Though I cannot claim the preamp to give the highest of quality, I haven't found it to be bad. I've been using one for about 2 years now.

 

[slipperybidness]

One thing you have to understand about vinyl and analog reproduction in general, is that there is a lot that can go wrong, and in the hands of the inexperienced usually does.

The other issue is that digital systems are resilient, mechanical systems are not.

So you can't get good results on the cheap.

You have a cheap turntable and a nasty DJ scratch cartridge. You have a very cheap preamp, that is quite honestly too cheap to be any good.

In addition the set up of a turntable has to be absolutely obsessional. Tracking force, tracking angle, and offset have to be adjusted perfectly and a protractor used for the latter. The turntable must be perfectly level.

Very small errors make for very poor sound. I don't believe the equipment you have purchased is capable of high fidelity reproduction.

With digital equipment sound quality between low and high priced units is small. With Vinyl there are huge improvements as you move up the food chain.

While everything you say is definitely true, sometimes you can be a bit over-critical.

While his setup won't win any awards or be featured in any magazines, he should be able to get at least tolerable sound out of it. What he is describing is seems to me to be a malfunction of something in the signal path. Everybody needs to start somewhere and doesn't have the funds to start with the best. Also, if you make a mistake and kill your gear, then it's better to learn that lesson on cheap gear than pricey gear.

 

[Irvrobinson]

While everything you say is definitely true, sometimes you can be a bit over-critical.

I'm not so sure everything he's saying is true. I know that Behringer is only $20, but a single two-channel op-amp, like the Linear Technologies LT1115, would fit in that little box and would probably produce a passable result. (I have no idea what's in the Behringer, I'm just pointing out that $20 doesn't mean it's "incapable of high fidelity", it's just ugly.)

The same with the Stanton cartridge. Yeah, it's slanted more towards durability than subtlety, but it's probably on the same level as good FM radio. The turntable is probably in the same category. I think TLS Guy overcooked his response, and all he probably accomplished is chasing the OP away, needlessly.

I do agree with TLS Guy that setup is alway important with mechanical systems, but that is completely irrelevant to the original question.

Frankly, TLS Guy, I think your response was unworthy of you.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm not so sure everything he's saying is true. I know that Behringer is only $20, but a single two-channel op-amp, like the Linear Technologies LT1115, would fit in that little box and would probably produce a passable result. (I have no idea what's in the Behringer, I'm just pointing out that $20 doesn't mean it's "incapable of high fidelity", it's just ugly.)

The same with the Stanton cartridge. Yeah, it's slanted more towards durability than subtlety, but it's probably on the same level as good FM radio. The turntable is probably in the same category. I think TLS Guy overcooked his response, and all he probably accomplished is chasing the OP away, needlessly.

I do agree with TLS Guy that setup is alway important with mechanical systems, but that is completely irrelevant to the original question.

Frankly, TLS Guy, I think your response was unworthy of you.

You can think what you want. That Behringer preamp only claims to boost the cartridge output to line level. It makes no claims to equalize the RIAA curve and no specs are published as to its adherence to the RIAA curve or its deviation.

Extremely accurate adherence to the RIAA curve is essential for any semblance of pleasant reproduction. Any phono preamp worth purchasing will disclose that spec.

As to the cartridge it is very stiff. It has only half the compliance of an Ortofon Red. The stylus is not elliptical, as is typical of scratch cartridges, as they have to play backwards and cope with all manor of abuse. Tracking force is 2 to 5 grams which means 5 grams as you always should select the upper end of the tracking range.

When I set up the turntable I sent Afterlife2, I had to do a number of workarounds.

For instance as is typical of all but high end arms, there was no height adjustment, so the tracking angle was incorrect and it sounded awful, until I corrected it with shims.

The drag of the auto return mechanism severely compromised performance as is typical, and so I had to remove it.

I was quite pleased with the unit when it left, and I know Afterlife 2 has enjoyed it and has been purchasing vinyl.

Vinyl sounds lousy without great attention to detail and proper equipment selection. I stand by that statement.

I think I almost certainly have more experience with vinyl reproduction than anyone else on these forums.

 

[slipperybidness]

It makes no claims to equalize the RIAA curve and no specs are published as to its adherence to the RIAA curve or its deviation.



Vinyl sounds lousy without great attention to detail and proper equipment selection. I stand by that statement.

I think I almost certainly have more experience with vinyl reproduction than anyone else on these forums.

Yeah, if it doesn't have RIAA (or at least decent RIAA) equalization, then you are fighting a losing battle right out of the gate.

Yes, proper setup is key.

Yes, you have more experience.

But, what I'm getting back to is that the OP seemed to be describing an electrical or signal problem, not just a crappy gear problem. Unless perhaps that phono preamp doesn't have any RIAA equalization circuit at all.

What you would consider to sound terrible, I would guess that 90% of the population would say sounds "fine".

For some reason, his attempt to play vinyl sounds bad to his untrained ear, so it suggests that something aint right. I'm guessing its a setup issue. Even if you have the best turntable and arm and stylus and preamp and amp and speakers, it will sound like crap if you don't set it up correctly.

I would guess that even when turntables were high tech that most people didn't know how to set them up, much less now that turntables haven't been mainstream for more than 30 yrs.

 

[Grador]

Given that when I play records it doesn't sound like it's 20 miles down a tunnel, I'm going to go ahead and guess that my behringer pre has an RIAA curve, again though I can't say how closely it follows it.

 

[Irvrobinson]

You can think what you want. That Behringer preamp only claims to boost the cartridge output to line level. It makes no claims to equalize the RIAA curve and no specs are published as to its adherence to the RIAA curve or its deviation.

Extremely accurate adherence to the RIAA curve is essential for any semblance of pleasant reproduction. Any phono preamp worth purchasing will disclose that spec.

Vinyl sounds lousy without great attention to detail and proper equipment selection. I stand by that statement.

I think I almost certainly have more experience with vinyl reproduction than anyone else on these forums.

Oh come now, if it doesn't support RIAA equalization it isn't a phono pre-amp. To extend my IC example, the LT1115 has built-in RIAA equalization, and so does its competitors. This is Behringer for crissake, not some bunch of yokels. I'm not necessarily a fan of their products, but every one I've tried has basically done the job. Behringer doesn't publish any specs for the PP400, so drawing any conclusions that it doesn't do something because Behringer didn't publish a spec is nonsensical.

I've heard vinyl on one of those USB turntables you get at Fry's for less than $100, and it still sounded reasonably good. Grador's experience with this pre-amp confirms that you've just stepped in it with your response. As for the depth of your experience, well, I'm sure we're all impressed, but it hasn't translated into a meaningful reply for the OP. In fact, you probably pissed him off and he just went away.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yeah, if it doesn't have RIAA (or at least decent RIAA) equalization, then you are fighting a losing battle right out of the gate.

Yes, proper setup is key.

Yes, you have more experience.

But, what I'm getting back to is that the OP seemed to be describing an electrical or signal problem, not just a crappy gear problem. Unless perhaps that phono preamp doesn't have any RIAA equalization circuit at all.

What you would consider to sound terrible, I would guess that 90% of the population would say sounds "fine".

For some reason, his attempt to play vinyl sounds bad to his untrained ear, so it suggests that something aint right. I'm guessing its a setup issue. Even if you have the best turntable and arm and stylus and preamp and amp and speakers, it will sound like crap if you don't set it up correctly.

I would guess that even when turntables were high tech that most people didn't know how to set them up, much less now that turntables haven't been mainstream for more than 30 yrs.

I didn't get the sense this was a connection problem. For instance there was no channel discrepancy.

I suspect after researching this more, that this is a cartridge issue.

There is a thread on hydrogen audio and other reviews. It seems this is a stiff nasty piece of work, despite its popularity. It seems it needs at least 5GM tracking force and may be more to not miss track. So this cartridge will definitely do permanent record damage with each playing.

Also I find reports is this cartridge not playing loud, which is strange given the specs, although the output specified is slightly lower than normally found in budget cartridges.

I note a distressing tendency on these forums to defend cheap junk no matter what.

My visits to Best Buy and other places are convincing me that the standards of budget and mid priced gear are actually declining. This is not a good situation.

I think the public at large have always been far too happy to accept low standards. The problem now I think, is that the percentage of the population really wanting and striving for higher standards is shrinking.

 

[Haaspac]

Sorry I haven't responded in a few days. No one scared me off. I am about 10 days away from moving into the first house I have ever owned, so I am quite busy getting everything organized with that. I value everyone's opinion, and even if TLSguy thinks I have terrible quality gear, he still brings up a good point that is worth looking into. The turntables and cartridge are my girlfriend's stuff. She used to run a production company that threw raves which explains why its scratch DJ stuff and not necessarily good quality home listening stuff. But what can you do, it was free. Once I move in to my new house I will give it the proper time and attention it needs to fix the sound issue. I can't really buy anything right now as I have spent a small fortune on this house. My next project is to build a sub cabinet for my 18" woofer and amp Strassacker: Speaker Building, Components and that will be very very soon.