New to home audio

[BayAreaRider]

What’s up guys, my name is Vince and I’m from the Bay Area. I’m new to the home audio scene, but not to audio in general. I’ve done some nice audio systems in cars and more recently a SQ system in my girls L300. I understand the basic concepts and some of the technical stuff.

Any how-

What I’m hoping to learn here is what kind of budget I should be looking at to upgrade my home theater. I’ve got a Yamaha sw216 and it’s adequate, but I’m looking to get a 15” or an 18” to replace it. My goal is to really shake the neighborhood when I turn it up. I remember a buddy had a 15” that you could sit on the couch with and feel every molecule in your body vibrate.

I don’t watch movies much, but listen to a lot of music and occasionally game. What should I be looking at? I don’t even know where to start.

TIA

 

[lovinthehd]

Start with the usual suspects of ID sub world....Hsu Research, SVS, Rythmik, Power Sound Audio. Maybe take a look at Seaton, JTR and Funk if you want something nicer. Maybe even just do a diy sub, it's not that hard (like a Dayton UM-18 and flatpack combo from parts-express.com).

 

[BayAreaRider]

Ok thanks for the info. Maybe you could help me choose the right wattage too? My living room is about 20x20 w/ 9ft ceilings, but I took out 3/4 of the wall that separates it from the dining room, so it’s a pretty open floor space. All in all I’ve got well over 7000ft3 in the space this will pushing, and about 4000ft3 of frequently utilized listening area.

If I understand correctly - I should be using something that is capable of 120db in the audible range, does that sound right? Seems incredibly loud, but that is what I’m going for.

 

[snakeeyes]

That’s a big space. Perhaps a pair of HSU Research VTF15 subs. Good luck!

 

[lovinthehd]

Ok thanks for the info. Maybe you could help me choose the right wattage too? My living room is about 20x20 w/ 9ft ceilings, but I took out 3/4 of the wall that separates it from the dining room, so it’s a pretty open floor space. All in all I’ve got well over 7000ft3 in the space this will pushing, and about 4000ft3 of frequently utilized listening area.

If I understand correctly - I should be using something that is capable of 120db in the audible range, does that sound right? Seems incredibly loud, but that is what I’m going for.

Room size article for subs https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size

I think you'll need multiples unless perhaps you're only concerned about a single seat.

Wattage is a useless parameter to determine what you need without other information like sub system sensitivity, spl capabilities, etc. You might want to check out a great source for things subwoofer try http://data-bass.com

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Ok thanks for the info. Maybe you could help me choose the right wattage too? My living room is about 20x20 w/ 9ft ceilings, but I took out 3/4 of the wall that separates it from the dining room, so it’s a pretty open floor space. All in all I’ve got well over 7000ft3 in the space this will pushing, and about 4000ft3 of frequently utilized listening area.

If I understand correctly - I should be using something that is capable of 120db in the audible range, does that sound right? Seems incredibly loud, but that is what I’m going for.

That is incredibly loud but hey, we’ve all seen crazier.

The HSU 15’s suggested are a good value. They would likely achieve your goal.

I like DIY but you should know what you are getting into. If you know nothing, it can be a good way to throw away a grand.

I know Jeff at JTR well and it is my honest and unbiased opinion that he makes some of the best engineered high output subs in the business. With him, you get what you pay for. SVS and HSU are good too, but they are smaller and not as loud.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Room size article for subs https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size

I think you'll need multiples unless perhaps you're only concerned about a single seat.

Wattage is a useless parameter to determine what you need without other information like sub system sensitivity, spl capabilities, etc. You might want to check out a great source for things subwoofer try http://data-bass.com

Oh come now. We know the answer to this. Whatever amount of power you settle on, you need more! I’m sitting on more than 8500 watts rms of subwoofer amplifier power and we all know plenty of people who have multiples of that.

So I think 8500 is enough!

 

[R.Elder]

You may want to consider multiple subs. In my experience most rooms have dead spaces. I use a SVS PB 13 Ultra and a Martin Logan dynamo 700 which if you can still get from Best Buy for 399 I think is a steal.

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh come now. We know the answer to this. Whatever amount of power you settle on, you need more! I’m sitting on more than 8500 watts rms of subwoofer amplifier power and we all know plenty of people who have multiples of that.

So I think 8500 is enough!

That would be "moar" power in that case . I do fine with only 2kw for my living room subs.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

That would be "moar" power in that case . I do fine with only 2kw for my living room subs.

It absolutely is. I was teasing of course. I am well aware what I have is nuts. I have four dedicated 20 amp lines for my amps so it’s not like anyone can just do what I did.

 

[Soccacrazy24]

One special trick I've done to increase the boom is invert my subwoofers and an angled box. Consider that as well when looking.

 

[BayAreaRider]

It absolutely is. I was teasing of course. I am well aware what I have is nuts. I have four dedicated 20 amp lines for my amps so it’s not like anyone can just do what I did.

Yes I was going to add that I would need to run another sub panel for that type of endeavor. Hah!

So I’ve got a guy on CL with two PSA HT S15s for 1500. One down firing and one forward. He said he’d sell only the down firing or both of them. I want to start with one and go from there, I’m thinking it looks like a good deal. They are under warranty till 2020 too.
I couldn’t find a response chart for these so I’m not sure about them.

Also I looked at the VTF-3 MK5 HT and that seems to have a decently linear response and low end extension. The price for a new one might be a little more than the PSA I found assuming he wants 60% of his price for just one.

What is everyone’s feelings on this? I’d like to stay under a grand on this.

 

[kini]

Yes I was going to add that I would need to run another sub panel for that type of endeavor. Hah!

So I’ve got a guy on CL with two PSA HT S15s for 1500. One down firing and one forward. He said he’d sell only the down firing or both of them. I want to start with one and go from there, I’m thinking it looks like a good deal. They are under warranty till 2020 too.
I couldn’t find a response chart for these so I’m not sure about them.

Also I looked at the VTF-3 MK5 HT and that seems to have a decently linear response and low end extension. The price for a new one might be a little more than the PSA I found assuming he wants 60% of his price for just one.

What is everyone’s feelings on this? I’d like to stay under a grand on this.

You don't want or shouldn't want sealed subs for that size space unless you can afford a lot of them and larger than 15".

Staying under $1K won't give you the 120db you mentioned, not even close unless you mount the sub to your head.

At 1K buying new the HSU VTF15.2 is probably your best choice. It's just over 1K with shipping.

 

[shadyJ]

Staying under $1K won't give you the 120db you mentioned, not even close unless you mount the sub to your head.

Subwoofer/speaker proximity vs SPL is actually something I wish more people would understand. Often I see people saying that in order to achieve X SPL quantity, you need Y amount of displacement. I suppose that is true if you are placing the sub in room as far away from the listening position as possible, then yes, you have to pressurize the entire space to achieve X SPLs at the listening position. But you can get more SPLs just by placing the sub closer to the listening position. Most people place the subs against the walls, which often is farther from the listening position, but those who want big SPLs on a tight budget can just use near-field subwoofer placement. So you might have been facetious by saying to mount a sub to your head, but the reality is that would give you massive SPLs and removes the room from the equation totally.

 

[BayAreaRider]

Good know... makes me wonder - what’s the consensus on DIY? I imagine I’d be saving some serious money there. If I can stick under a grand for house shaking bass on a DIY build then I’d be happy to go this route. Considering I only know mobile audio applications, can anyone give me some solid opinions on this? I always buy raw drivers for mobile, but I’m a little concerned about the aesthetics in my house when building my own box. I’m no stranger to building things - I’m a Union steamfitter by trade, I know I can do it with the right resources. I just don’t know the sites or the recommended drivers to build any home audio projects yet.

 

[BayAreaRider]

I’ve been reading a thread on here about DIY. I think I’m understanding what’s going on now. Starting to open my eyes.

 

[lovinthehd]

There's a diy subforum here, you could check some out that way. Avsforum.com has got an extensive one as well. If you don't have saws to break down sheets of ply or mdf or cut the baffles there are cnc-cut flatpacks from parts-express.com that are especially good deals along with some of the Dayton drivers (UM-18 is a nice one). Same maker of flatpacks also provide a few on the diysoundgroup.com site. Some guys are doing Marty sub flatpacks down in southern california https://shop.gsgad.com/

Paired with the right amp/dsp they can be very cost effective (as long as you don't pay yourself ). I've built my own boxes from ply for the last five subs. Finishing for WAF/aesthetics might take some extra effort, depends on your skills and what you can tolerate.

 

[Sef_Makaro]

I’m a little concerned about the aesthetics in my house when building my own box.

There are countless options for finishes. Personally, if I’m building any sort of furniture I like to use nice materials and finish with a satin polyurethane top coat. Biggest tip I can give is use many thin coats and sand with high grit sandpaper between each coat.

MDF is a commonly used material for speaker cabinets. That I’d skin with a veneer, be it wood or laminate. It can be stained too but I wouldn’t unless you plan and using something really dark and applying until you don’t even see the MDF texture.

 

[BayAreaRider]

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2971132-diy-sub-600-vs-hsu-vtf-2-a-2.html#/topics/2971132?page=4

I’m liking this thread. I see that um18 mentioned. I assume you guys agree it would outperform the Vtf15.2 we talked about?

Yes, I have saws and am a decent woodworker. I remodeled almost my entire house myself, and considering there were no floors and many torn down walls I think I can manage a sub box although I’ve never tried. My finish skills are probably lackluster, but ive stained a few decks, fiberglassed a few items and worked a bit of poly sealer. Never tried my hand at a veneer but I like your idea.

Thanks for all the info here fellas! I see this being a nice summer project.

 

[shadyJ]

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2971132-diy-sub-600-vs-hsu-vtf-2-a-2.html#/topics/2971132?page=4

I’m liking this thread. I see that um18 mentioned. I assume you guys agree it would outperform the Vtf15.2 we talked about?

Yes, I have saws and am a decent woodworker. I remodeled almost my entire house myself, and considering there were no floors and many torn down walls I think I can manage a sub box although I’ve never tried. My finish skills are probably lackluster, but ive stained a few decks, fiberglassed a few items and worked a bit of poly sealer. Never tried my hand at a veneer but I like your idea.

Thanks for all the info here fellas! I see this being a nice summer project.

A UM18 with a beefy amplifier would have some performance advantages over a VTF15h mk2, but it wouldn't be overwhelming, at least if the UM18 is in a sealed enclosure. The VTF15h mk2 uses a ported enclosure which gives it a real advantage from 16 to 40 Hz. If you want the UM18 to have major advantage over the VTF15h mk2 in ever respect, you will need to port it, and that is a more complex construction, and a much larger and very heavy subwoofer. -And you will also need to give it a heavy-duty amplifier.

Second, the UM18 is a relatively insensitive driver whereas the VTF15h mk2 uses a pretty sensitive driver. That means that a watt will go a lot further on the Hsu sub.

In continuous output, the UM18 in a 4.2 cubic foot enclosure has almost no output advantage over a VTF15h mk2, even with an insanely powerful amplifier. They are nearly the same across frequencies from 16 Hz to 200 Hz. That is actually pretty good for the UM18 though, considering it is a sealed subwoofer. In burst output, the VTF15h mk2 has an advantage from 16 Hz to 31 Hz. Above that, the UM18 can play louder, but you do need a really beefy amp to do so. We are talking like 2 kW+. One advantage that the UM18 has is that it will have some output below 16 Hz, where the VTF15h mk2 will have very little. The problem with that is you would need multiple UM18s to get audible output at those infrasonic frequencies.

The people in that AVS thread just assuming that the UM18 will flat out outperform the VTF15h mk2 are really under-estimating the engineering that went into the VTF15h mk2.