New theater- need advice on speaker system

[Mathu12]

Hello, I am new to the Audioholics forums and have read extensively on my topic but still have some questions. I built my house a couple years ago and designed the basement with plans to build a theater room in the future. Well, the future is now and I am finishing my theater room. I haven't found exactly what I am looking for in the forum.

This will be a dedicated theater room so I don't have any limitations for locations of items. I do have a pretty limited budget. I have purchased a Denon AVR912 receiver and an Epson 3010 3D projector so far. I want a fixed screen that I can build (helped a buddy do it a couple years ago and it was easy). My room sets up at about 13' wide and 20' long. The screen size I designed for is 110" diagonally.I'd like two rows of seating from about 14' back to about 18' from the screen. What I am looking for is advice on a type of screen material for 3D and best picture quality. Also, 7.1 speakers and advice on placement (as mentioned, no limitations). My plan was to make columns that I will mount the side and back speakers into. The front speakers, center and sub are planned to be built into columns in front and around the screen. I would like to keep the speakers around $600-700. Not sure on a budget for the screen material, just looking for ideas.

Any help with these items would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[agarwalro]

This article on speaker placement should get the thought processes going.

 

[GranteedEV]

I built my house a couple years ago and designed the basement with plans to build a theater room in the future. Well, the future is now and I am finishing my theater room. I haven't found exactly what I am looking for in the forum.

-For starters, you may want to install a 20A circuit breaker or two.
-Acoustically transparent screen would really open up flexibility as far as a center speaker goes, as you can use a truly identical center.

I would like to keep the speakers around $600-700.

No offense or anything, but starting with a 110 inch screen and $1500 projector, and then budgeting $700 for a 7.1 speaker system is... silly.

I would budget $800-3000 on front speakers, $200+ on every pair of surround speakers, and $1000 on a pair of good subwoofers. Okay, actually I would budget around $3000 on like four DIY subwoofers, and if that were my HT I'd put some serious thought into some Gedlee Abbeys ($3000ea fully assembled or $1800 ea for DIY kit).... but that's just me... I don't want to scare you.

I realize money doesn't grow on trees, but it seems you're selling the audio portion very short. If you can't afford it, get just the front speakers for the time being, and install the surrounds and subwoofers later. But think "long term" what you want. Can a $700 speaker set, which probably means ~$75 per speaker and 200 for a sub, really fill a room with natural-sounding, three-dimensional, dynamic sound, at 14 to 18 feet from the screen?

For instance; to handle a 97db peak without clipping, at 18 feet away (IE loud enough for regular volume dialogue to be intelligible) you need front speakers AND amps capable of 112db @ 1m. To handle a reference level peak (IE as loud as a theater mix is "intended" to be) of 105db, you need front speakers and amps capable of 120db @ 1m. Even the very capable JBL LSR6332s ($1500 each) would max out at about 111db powered by that receiver. So you can imagine my concerns. a $75-150 each speaker that can cleanly fulfill the requirements of the seating distance and also provide good fidelity, is just unrealistic.

So for starters, given that receiver, you will need something with at least 94db/2.83v/m. and preferably closer to 101db/2.83v/m sensitivity, as well as minimum impedance no lower than 4 ohm, . It also needs to be capable of clean displacement from 80hz to 500hz. That's a tall order.

..........And that's just the ::dynamic aspect:: of sound quality.

At even under $1000, most speakers with 94db sensitivity are realistically not very good sounding. They quickly trade SQ to get loud. We don't really want to make such concessions here at AH. It seems like you're in a bit of a pickle here, with that budget and that seating distance.

One possibility you may wish to evaluate, are these:

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_141&products_id=1006

That's ~$1600 for three fronts. If you don't mind DIYing the speakers, I would be looking at building one of the designs based around the SEOS-12 waveguide + B&C De250 tweeter

For the center you will want an acoustically transparent screen like this:

http://seymourav.com/screensDIY.asp And to build the center speaker into the wall or something along those lines.

Next you will need a very capable subwoofer for what sounds like a large room. I would be looking at something like a pair of Rythmik FV15... or better yet look into DIY subwoofers

Surrounds ain't a big deal, so you could always figure that out later. I think KEF's coaxial speakers make for good surrounds.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news or what-have-you, but you would seriously thank yourself after-the-fact, if you did it right rather than cheap out. If the funding isn't there currently, then go with a 2.0 setup. No sub, no center, no surrounds, but truly capable stereo mains that can carry the bulk of the load.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I 100% agree with GranteedEV about your budget for speakers - $600-700 for 7.1 is not just silly - it's simply not realistic, not even with DIY.
However there few ideas I could throw around : If you opt for fixed DIY screen - you can could pretty decent quality screen on very low budget - say about $200-300

Speakers - you need for forget about 7.1 - and go back to 5.1 - properly positioned the surround effect will almost as good.
The sub will take big chunk of your budget as filling 13x20 room with quality bass is not something $150 sub could dream to achieve.
Test pending, but 15" Cadence sub (there is a coupon for it somethere here) could be get for $400 - with some eQ - it could do pretty good job.

Checkout older Infinity Primus models on Crunchfield - these are great bang for the buck - IE Primus P252 Tower for $150/ea

I seen this kit TriTrix MTM TL Speaker Components And Cabinet Kit Pair 300-702
on sale as low as $150 - so if keep an eye on it - they are pretty good for the money

 

[Grador]

I'll throw in my two cents here, but for a room your size I'm not going to say I'm sure on this one. Normally on very tight budgets I suggest surrounds before a center. I find that they do more for a movie, especially when the budget allows for better than decent mains. With a room that size, and a budget so small though I'm really not sure which is the best way to go. I may be tempted to agree with GranteedEV and and say to put all the money you can into 2.0

 

[Mathu12]

Thank you all very much for the replies. Not sure I can say I’m thrilled about the replies but it is what it is. I do want to describe my situation a little more.

I didn’t mention it in the original post but I am finishing my basement. Myself and my friend are doing all the work. My total budget for the entire project is less than $10000. So far, I’m on budget but the theater is sure to squash this quickly. This means that if I can find speakers that are DIY and are good quality (recommended by the experts here), I would definitely be willing to build them all myself.

For the speakers, you guys have made it completely clear that I have entirely too little budgeted to get a good system. However, my original plan was to go with the Onkyo 5400 7.1 system (about $350) that includes the receiver and the speakers (my buddy installed it in his theater room, which is bigger than my room and truthfully, I think it sounds pretty good). Obviously, this is my very novice opinion. I do not have a lot of experience picking out audio equipment.

Next, as I mentioned in the earlier post, my plan was to enclose all the speakers in columns (for better appearance). I do wonder if this will affect the sound output of the speakers. I plan to put the left speaker and the subwoofer in the column on the left side of the screen. All equipment and the right side speaker in the right column. Center speaker in built in below the screen. Rear speakers in columns on either side of the first row of seating and rear surrounds in columns on the wall behind the back row of seats. Do I need to get special speakers to put inside the columns or will regular speakers function and sound fine inside the columns?

For the screen, some have mentioned that I should get the acoustically transparent material. If I plan to put the center speaker below the screen, is there another option for screen material. I will definitely build it myself. Is there any material that is better for picture quality?

BoredSysAdmin, you mentioned the TriTrix DIY kit. I checked those out. They look like good speakers, get good reviews and appear to be something that I could do easily. Would the performance of these speakers satisfy the sound requirements based on my room size that was described by GranteedEV in his reply? He threw out alot of numbers that (I'm sorry to say) I didn't really understand.

Sorry for the long post but I really am enjoying this process and hope to get as much help from experienced people here that I can.

Thanks.

 

[Grador]

On your budget a home theater in a box may be the best option, but it will be the least easily upgraded. As for building speakers into columns, anything ported on the side or back would be severely affected, as for non-ported I will let the more knowledgeable people reply.

One thing to remember about audio equipment: The quality is as good as you think it is. Technically you can always do better but if you're happy with it then it is good enough. If you thought your friends onkyo setup was fine then go for something like that. Though keep in mind that you'll probably get a more for your money going 5.1 instead of 7.1. Those last two speakers are of questionable utility, especially when tradeoffs are made for them.

 

[GranteedEV]

IThis means that if I can find speakers that are DIY and are good quality (recommended by the experts here), I would definitely be willing to build them all myself.

Do you have a router and table saw?

For the speakers, you guys have made it completely clear that I have entirely too little budgeted to get a good system. However, my original plan was to go with the Onkyo 5400 7.1 system (about $350) that includes the receiver and the speakers (my buddy installed it in his theater room, which is bigger than my room and truthfully, I think it sounds pretty good).
Obviously, this is my very novice opinion. I do not have a lot of experience picking out audio equipment.

It's fine if you lack experience, but we don't want you to settle for sub-par..

Next, as I mentioned in the earlier post, my plan was to enclose all the speakers in columns (for better appearance). I do wonder if this will affect the sound output of the speakers.

It will. Sound that diffracts off of sharp corners arrives at your ears as a delayed phantom source, which reduces fidelity in simple terms, and the effect is proportional to SPL, which means that if the action gets heated, things are more likely to get offensive and you will force yourself to "turn it down". Additionally, most speakers have lower midrange and bass energy which radiates rearward. If you put it somewhere like where you describe, that rearward energy will re-radiate forward, and cause an imbalance in the sound.

For the screen, some have mentioned that I should get the acoustically transparent material. If I plan to put the center speaker below the screen

A horizontal center speaker itself, and placed below the screen, are themselves issues that I would recommend against if possible...

is there another option for screen material. I will definitely build it myself. Is there any material that is better for picture quality?

I suspect you'll be fine with respect to PQ. You're probably close to the law of diminishing returns. The SQ aspect however, is where most of us are concerned.

the TriTrix DIY kit. I checked those out. They look like good speakers, get good reviews and appear to be something that I could do easily. Would the performance of these speakers satisfy the sound requirements based on my room size that was described by GranteedEV in his reply?

Not what I would use in your environment and seating distance. As far as a decently inexpensive build, maybe consider these:

http://stories.parts-express.com/stories/2444-en_us/category/Speaker/story/17029/redirect.htm

You would need to build it specificially so the tweeter axis lines up decently with your ears at either row of seats. I would build the WWWTWWW format rather than the WTWWWWW format but it wouldn't be a big deal either way.

AT just over $200/pr for drivers/crossover you'd have a tough time doing better. Cabinet construction for a big tower like that ain't exactly putting together lego, but if you have confidence in yourself, this is the direction I would lead you.

 

[Mathu12]

Thanks again for the reply GranteedEV. I want to list out some things that I believe you are saying I should do and you can comment on them if possible.

Potentially build the speakers that you linked to (the Stentorians) for my front left and right mains.

Build another (probably similar to the Stentorians) as a center (vertical- not horizontal) and put it behind an acoustically transparent projector screen.

I could build a subwoofer (if I can find a good design) and put it either in the left or right front corner?

Build or buy 4 of the same speakers for the back and rear surround speakers that would mount approx 1 foot above the first row of seating on either side and on the back wall about 1 foot above the rear seating (which will be raised 1 foot)………… By the way, this is what I’m thinking based on our conversations- not what you have said here.

Since it sounds like I should not build columns around my speakers and put them inside the walls around my screen, I will probably have to re-design my room layout so I should be able to do anything recommended at this point. It may also be an option for me to just buy some cheap speakers to start with while I try to build an entire set myself (replacing them pair by pair). I’ve looked at a couple forums and it seems that I probably would have the skills to build them. I would like to get ideas on really good designs before I start (obviously).

Now, I have a couple more questions.

1) Did you recommend the Stentorians as stand alone front speakers because you thought I should start out with those by themselves and upgrade later to more speakers?
2) For a 7.1 system, is it recommended to use the same speakers for rear and rear surround?

By the way, I'd like to show an image/ layout of my basement for reference but I can't figure out how to attach.

Again, thanks for the continued support. I think this is going to help me out a ton with my theater design.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Stentorians looks like interesting design - it will surely be loud with enough amps, since we on the topic of really making big volume for ht in big on very low budget - I can't skip to suggest AK collaborative Econowave DIY Design:
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker - Page 16 - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker - Page 621 - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Red Spade Audio: Introducing the Econowave speaker
Econowave Speakers

etc...

For cheap,but DIY Sub - you could consider building two of these
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/78575-modeled-infinty-reference-1260w.html

 

[GranteedEV]

Potentially build the speakers that you linked to (the Stentorians) for my front left and right mains.

Yes. As far as value goes, while fulfilling the requirements of your room/distance, that is what I would be looking at.

Build another (probably similar to the Stentorians) as a center (vertical- not horizontal) and put it behind an acoustically transparent projector screen.

If possible, a third Stentorian.

I could build a subwoofer (if I can find a good design) and put it either in the left or right front corner?

Please build multiple subwoofers (2 to 4), and decide on placement after they are built based on how they measure. There's some sweet DIY drivers out there. I really like the CSS Trio 12 in vented and horn loaded applications.

Build or buy 4 of the same speakers for the back and rear surround speakers that would mount approx 1 foot above the first row of seating on either side and on the back wall about 1 foot above the rear seating (which will be raised 1 foot)………….

I would add one more criteria if you're interested... use a coaxial speaker for a surround, as regular speakers suffer from vertical lobing when not on-axis. KEF's Q100s and Q300s come to mind, as do the Seas Loki kits, and for higher end surrounds, the Soundfield Audio M1s and KEF R, Pioneer EX, and KEF Reference.

It may also be an option for me to just buy some cheap speakers to start with while I try to build an entire set myself (replacing them pair by pair).

That doesn't sound very efficient from a cost perspective, in my opinion.

1) Did you recommend the Stentorians as stand alone front speakers because you thought I should start out with those by themselves and upgrade later to more speakers?

Yes. Between their extremely high value and ability to handle high output, I feel they would be fitting for your application (home theater).

2) For a 7.1 system, is it recommended to use the same speakers for rear and rear surround?

Opinions vary. My opinion on surrounds can be found on post #5 of this thread:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/79148-matching-surrounds.html

By the way, I'd like to show an image/ layout of my basement for reference but I can't figure out how to attach.

Try imageshack.us

Stentorians looks like interesting design - it will surely be loud with enough amps, since we on the topic of really making big volume for ht in big on very low budget - I can't skip to suggest AK collaborative Econowave DIY Design:

As far as econowaves go, I'd go for a build utilizing the SEOS-12:

SEOS12 with Eminence 12 Pro Woofers



Of course, i'd imagine the tweeters for that speaker alone cost around as much as a pair of stentorians.

The only caveat with respect to speakers like this, is that you can't aim them forward. You want to aim them 45 degrees inwards so that they cross in front of the listening position.

 

[Mathu12]

Quote:
The only caveat with respect to speakers like this, is that you can't aim them forward. You want to aim them 45 degrees inwards so that they cross in front of the listening position.

Did you mean the Stentorians or the SEOS12 with that comment?

Thanks.

 

[GranteedEV]

Quote:
The only caveat with respect to speakers like this, is that you can't aim them forward. You want to aim them 45 degrees inwards so that they cross in front of the listening position.

Did you mean the Stentorians or the SEOS12 with that comment?

Thanks.

I meant econowave builds in general, including that SEOS-12/de250/Deltalite that I linked. It's designed to be crossfired. The pros are worth it, so I wouldn't call it a disadvantage, but for some people it may not be practica just because they let aesthetics dominate their decisions. Here is an example:

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

OP, I took a 2nd look at the Stentorians project... compared to some Zaph DIY and honestly I couldn't find anything this money effective

I say go with them and if you want big sound on tight project....

I still can't believe that woofer is only $9 !!

more info on the project here:
Speaker Design Works

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...7.1 speakers...around $600-700.

Well, a good 7.1 speaker system for $700 is tough.

Infinity P152 @ $64 each x 7 (if they have enough) =$448.

Infinity Primus P152 Single bookshelf speaker at Crutchfield Outlet

Velodyne VX-11 for $159 each x 2 = $318.

Amazon.com: Velodyne VX-11: Electronics

Total = $766.

Okay, so I'm $66 over budget.

 

[Mathu12]

[Infinity P152 @ $64 each x 7 (if they have enough) =$448.


I looked at these and they get very good reviews. Would 4 of these work well for rears and rear surrounds?

Thanks.

 

[Mathu12]

Ok. I think I may have a plan. Like to get some feedback if possible.

First, I think I may build 3 of the Stentorians (2 mains and a center). Thinking 2 WWWTWWW's for the mains (from GranteedEV's advice) and a center (to stand vertically behind the projector screen). Should the center speaker be a different layout than the mains?

Next, I'll either build a couple subs (haven't found a really good DIY yet) or maybe get a couple of the Velodynes recommended by AcuDefTechGuy. Question I have here is (sorry for the ignorance), how do I hook up two subs to my receiver? Think I only have 1 sub input.

For the rears and surrounds, I'm thinking about 4 of the Infinity P152's also recommended by AcuDefTechGuy. I would still like to get feedback on these and whether they would be good for this application.

The last question I have is, would the receiver I bought (Denon AVR 1912) run this system or would I need an amp to help out?

Thanks.

 

[GranteedEV]

First, I think I may build 3 of the Stentorians (2 mains and a center). Thinking 2 WWWTWWW's for the mains (from GranteedEV's advice) and a center (to stand vertically behind the projector screen). Should the center speaker be a different layout than the mains?

There is no reason the center speaker should be a different layout if you can orient it correctly.

Next, I'll either build a couple subs (haven't found a really good DIY yet) or maybe get a couple of the Velodynes recommended by AcuDefTechGuy.

IMO those velodynes would be absolutely wimpy in your room. ADTG chose them because they're cheap and "fit" your unrealistic budget.

I would recommend two of these drivers:
Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4 15" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm 295-468

Each in a 300L Sonosub, 8" x 42" sonotube vent

One of these amps, in stereo to drive them:
Crown XLS 1000 DriveCore Series Power Amplifier Flexible for Any Pro Audio Amplification Need 245-500

Question I have here is (sorry for the ignorance), how do I hook up two subs to my receiver? Think I only have 1 sub input.

Well, most AVRs have enough voltage to drive to subs at the same time. All you need is a Y-Splitter.

For the rears and surrounds, I'm thinking about 4 of the Infinity P152's also recommended by AcuDefTechGuy. I would still like to get feedback on these and whether they would be good for this application.

They'll do decently enough.

The last question I have is, would the receiver I bought (Denon AVR 1912) run this system or would I need an amp to help out?

The AVR1912 you chose does not have preamplifier outputs (and for that reason is not something we would have recommended), so adding an external amp is not even an option, unfortunately. On the bright side the Stentorians are decently sensitive, you should be able to drive them to around 97-98db peaks @ 14m, and 95-96db peaks @ 18m. It might clip here and there or get a bit warm on more dynamic sequences, but nothing too major as far as I can tell. You can always replace electronics in the future when budget calls for it, but until then just stick with it... you've really got no choice. Just don't overdo it with the volume knob.

 

[Mathu12]

Thanks again for the reply GranteedEV. Please note that I have not opened the box yet on the receiver so if there may be another receiver of recommendation that may be in the same price range, I'd be open to make a change.

Regards.

 

[GranteedEV]

Not sure how much you paid, but this:

DENON AVR-3311CI 7.2-Channel Network Home Theater Receiver | Accessories4less

is about what i'd be looking at if I were you.

If you don't mind losing some features, perhaps this:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5005/MARANTZ-SR5005-100w-X-7ch-3-D-Home-Theater-Surround-Receiver/1.html#!specifications