New SVS "Plus 12.3" driver

[Ron Temple]

Whatever, if it improves the SQ, I'm going to get it.

 

[j_garcia]

Whatever, if it improves the SQ, I'm going to get it.

I can't really imagine that thing sounding better than it already does

 

[Ron Temple]

My thoughts exactly, but you never know...maybe we could do a DIY with the 12.2.

 

[MacManNM]

?? Shot peening is a physical change in the material and anodizing is not, so I don't see how that can happen. It is an electrochemical surface finish only, it isn't like heat treating. Adding .002 total of a chemical to the surface will NOT make the part any stronger.

MIL-A-8625F, Anodize/Chromic & Sulfuric says nothing about strengthening parts, nor does anodizing.org: http://www.anodizing.org/benefits.html

With radiant heat, black will absorb heat, not help dissipate it. Take a look at most heat sinks. The vast majority of the ones I've seen are not black, they are clear or bare, and I've seen them in every color that you can dye anodizing, so I doubt that the black anodizing is an effective improvement in heat dissipation. Heat within the driver is mostly dissipated through the frame anyway, so most of the heat that the cone will receive will likely be radiant, not directly conducted.

Sorry, don't mean to argue, just trying to help provide the right info.

Sure is a nice looking driver though.

The treatment is much harder than the alum it is attached to. If you know anything about structural engineering you will find that the most stress on a given object is on the outermost portion of it, thus the mere presence of the anodize helps it structurally. The heat dissipation is not only because of the color, the conductive properties are increased, it conducts the heat to a greater surface area, thus the dissipative characteristics are much better.

 

[j_garcia]

The treatment is much harder than the alum it is attached to. If you know anything about structural engineering you will find that the most stress on a given object is on the outermost portion of it, thus the mere presence of the anodize helps it structurally. The heat dissipation is not only because of the color, the conductive properties are increased, it conducts the heat to a greater surface area, thus the dissipative characteristics are much better.

I'm not structural, I'm mechanical (semiconductor capital equipment and now LCD capital equipment for ~12+ yrs), and when I say it doesn't make the part stronger, I'm thinking about functional, structural mechanical parts - and anodizing would not be considered a feature to add strength to a part. When I think about it in terms of the driver, I was thinking standard .25" plate, not a thin cone like the one used in the driver; so I see how it could be of some benefit in that specific application.

Color does play a role in heat shedding - so a black anodized piece would theoretically increase heat retention. Will that offset the benefit of a thin layer of pourous coating on the surface? Wear a black shirt and then a white shirt on a warm day. Which one will you feel warmer in?

I do respect what you have to say Mac, so don't view this negatively. Probably should be taken off topic...

 

[Ilkka]

Color does play a role in heat shedding - so a black anodized piece would theoretically increase heat retention. Will that offset the benefit of a thin layer of pourous coating on the surface? Wear a black shirt and then a white shirt on a warm day. Which one will you feel warmer in?

This is a bad example, since now the heat is coming from the outside (the sun). But in the case of subwoofer driver, the driver itself is more warmer than the surrounding air and believe it or not, black cone/basket dissipates more heat (faster) than a white or a bright cone. That's why most of the heat sinks ARE black. And of course added surface area due anodizing helps it even further.

 

[Ron Stimpson]

I see some folks posted a few additions already, but I had this written so here you go:

"So the DB12.3 is not really related to the DB12.2, correct?"

*********** Just so we're clear, there is no "DB12.3" the name of this woofer is the "Plus 12.3". The official in-house model name for the last version of the Plus woofer was the "dB12.2" which was a heavy revision to the dB12.1.

There were performance baselines set by the 12.2 but the 12.3 is a clean sheet design otherwise. Of course "lessons learned" from the 12.2 were examined but no restrictions or direction was given to the design team to pull from the latest 12.2 woofer (even the 12.2 had been improved many times over its product life span).

For those in the know: The 12 stands for 12", the 3 for the third major revision to the family of woofers. The "Plus" is the family. *************

"It looks as though they have gone away from the aluminum cone as well."

******** No. It's aluminum. It's just anodized a charcoal black and then brushed lightly to improve adhesive contact patches, surface pores and since we looked at brushed and un-brushed samples, we decided it looked cooler too.

We’re not sure if looking cooler will help reduce temps further but it can’t hurt ;^) ***********

Someone correct me as well, black anodizing does not really help with cooling in a dark enclosure, right?

********* Not sure what light or a "dark" enclosure has to do with it Bob but anodizing does indeed change the surface structure of the cone (creating a thin ceramic like coating). This helps in nominal ways in cooling the surface which is attached to the voice coil and it's moving a lot of air, which while it's a poor conductor of heat, still helps in small ways. Even more significantly helps with stiffness, again in minor degrees. It also is less prone to cracking or flaking as a softer clear coating might be. Paint or clear coat (as the old "dB12.2" woofer had) tends instead to act as an insulating blanket.

Is any of this Earth-shatteringly in its impact? Not, but there are other more effective aspects to durability enhancements, some visible, some not. None are revolutionary, all help a bit. As our pages state, if you are starting with a woofer as good as the 12.2 version was, you look for every little improvement you can get. The synergistic effect is one of greater efficiency, better durability, and better looks (though clearly the latter is a subjective aspect that won't be agreed to by all. That it's any improvement in our torturous ground plane instrumented testing over platforms taking 500 watts, and sealed or vented (the upcoming SB12-Plus sub is sealed and will use the Plus 12.3 woofer too) frankly is a bloody miracle and testament to how reaching out to even the smallest little advantage can add up.

Cooling vents, better spider alignment, anodizing, it's all just minor aspects that in very minor ways provide this new woofer every advantage we could afford to add to gain even the slightest improvement over the predecessor woofer.

Some will focus on such niceties and of course look for places to criticize. Shocker. No doubt, for such folks, if this woofer was rolled out under some other brand name it'd be treated as the second coming. As far as I know we haven’t documented any failures to date either. The dB12.2 woofer was pretty tough but one of our major goals was to improve that record still further. We invested heavily in an assembly area so each one could be built under our tough QC controls (so if there IS a failure we don’t have to reach out farther than the other side of our factory to find the appropriate person to examine the root cause). Running changes and improvements, which we’re already famous for (you don’t achieve our reputation in 7 years without that mentality) will be even easier to implement. No component is ever “good enough” around here. It might be priced right, it’s never good enough for us though.

For the record, the Plus 12.3 woofer is NOT ‘the second coming’. It's just another iterative improvement in a line of woofers that didn't have a peer at the price point even before we improved it. Several hundred customers ago.

The door to upgrades for any driven to have THE latest technology from us, will be wide open starting in May we hope. The News page will announce when pre-orders will be up, and when we hope to ship. If you have a dB12.2 based Plus sub, or hell, a first generation dB12.1, and it’s meeting your performance goals, save your money and buy DVD’s. If you thrash your SVS Plus sub to within an inch of its life on a daily basis (we know who you are, even if you fail to admit it yourself ;^) then the Plus 12.3 woofer might well be worth considering if your list of DVD’s is down to those chick flicks you didn’t want to buy anyway. ***********

Ron
SVS

 

[MacManNM]

I'm not structural, I'm mechanical (semiconductor capital equipment and now LCD capital equipment for ~12+ yrs), and when I say it doesn't make the part stronger, I'm thinking about functional, structural mechanical parts - and anodizing would not be considered a feature to add strength to a part. When I think about it in terms of the driver, I was thinking standard .25" plate, not a thin cone like the one used in the driver; so I see how it could be of some benefit in that specific application.

Color does play a role in heat shedding - so a black anodized piece would theoretically increase heat retention. Will that offset the benefit of a thin layer of pourous coating on the surface? Wear a black shirt and then a white shirt on a warm day. Which one will you feel warmer in?

I do respect what you have to say Mac, so don't view this negatively. Probably should be taken off topic...

This is on topic, we are old timers here.

Color has nothing to do with it. Colors you see are how much of given wavelengths are reflected in the visible spectrum. Color has no bearing on 3-12 micron light, which is heat. the entire thing with anodizing is not the color, so just try to put that aside. It is the increased conductive properties for the IR wavelengths. Its almost like putting a gold sheath on your interconnects, that little bit helps for electrons.

 

[Ilkka]

This is on topic, we are old timers here.

Color has nothing to do with it. Colors you see are how much of given wavelengths are reflected in the visible spectrum. Color has no bearing on 3-12 micron light, which is heat. the entire thing with anodizing is not the color, so just try to put that aside. It is the increased conductive properties for the IR wavelengths. Its almost like putting a gold sheath on your interconnects, that little bit helps for electrons.

You've never tried to burn a piece of paper with a magnifying glass? Black paper burns/lits much more easily than a white one.

 

[MacManNM]

You've never tried to burn a piece of paper with a magnifying glass? Black paper burns/lits much more easily than a white one.

This is because the magnifying glass is made most likely of BK7 glass. This type of glass transmits light from 0.350-1.5 microns pretty easily. When most of the energy transmitted through the medium is in the visible spectrum, it makes sense that the reaction of the material will correlate to the visible spectrum. If you were to use a calcium fluoride lens or a fused silica lens the results would be different.

 

[silversurfer]

Oh brother, referring to me as Bob? You have that all wrong.

First, thank you for the clarifications. The questions I had were honest and open, and I accepted answers from the other forum members. As you have seen, your boy Illka also referred to the driver as a DB12.3. We can argue about a driver being related to another, I don't see it, but it does not really matter. Oh, and you better send someone over to AVS quick, it is being referred to as the DB12.3 as well over there.

As I see now, the cooling via anodizing is not a color issue, it is a etching issue that creates more surface area for dissipation. Thanks MacMan. I must admit though, reading the posts between you and j_garcia have been educational.

Mr. Stimpson, I am glad you feel you are improving your product, but after a post like that seemingly directed at me, SVS probably won't be getting any of my business.

 

[Ron Stimpson]

"SVS probably won't be getting any of my business."

I'm reasonably certain my post didn't change anything in that regard one way or another.

I meant it only for the other 99.5% of the readership here.

Ron
SVS

 

[silversurfer]

I'm reasonably certain my post didn't change anything in that regard one way or another.

If you believe that, then surely it shows that you do not treat customers, non-customers, and potential customers alike. I showed no ill will to you or your company.

 

[Cavediver]

Three weeks ago I received a new PB12-Plus/2. To be fair, I have to admit that prior to receiving this sub, I have never before owned a subwofer, so my experience with subs was non-existent except for auditioning. Prior to purchasing the SVS, I auditioned many different brands of subs except the SVS at the local audio stores (Tweeter, Home Theater Store, All Star Audio/Video, and Fry's). I purchased the SVS based on reviews and comments on the forums and the fact that I wasn't all too impressed with what I was hearing in the stores. I had never heard an SVS sub until mine arrived. After reading this thread, looking again at the SVS website and looking at my drivers, I realized that my sub came with the new Plus 12.3 drivers. Since getting my system working properly, all I can say is that this subwoofer shakes my whole house. The cat is scared to come inside when the sub is doing its thing. It sounds absoutely amazing. I've had several friends ask in amazement "What the hell was that?", when the sub kicked in. I know I can't give any kind of comparison to other subs, and I see all of these threads with all kinds of charts, graphs and numbers which mean absolutely nothing to me. What matters most is that my SVS PB12-Plus/2 sub sounds amazing.

 

[mike c]

Ron, remember me? (untapped Philippine market)

still no news with a Philippine dealer?
maybe you can start an SVS question thread here (like the velodyne thread over at AVS) you can cut back on the tons of email you are receiving if new posters can read the answers to their questions already asked by previous posters.

 

[zonomorph]

Ron,

I haven't heard anything about SVS making sealed subs. When will we get some more details on these? Will there be sealed cylinders as well?

 

[Haywood Jablomi]

My new PB12-Plus/2 also has the new drivers in it. I never had a chance to hear the Plus/2 with the old drivers, so I cannot compare. What I can say is that this is one amazing subwoofer. I've heard subs that cost three times what I paid for this thing that couldn't keep up with it. None of that is a shock. I read hundreds of posts on SVS before I bought. I knew HT performance would be sick and I knew music performance would be very good. What I did not know was how good this sub would be with music. It sounds like I upgraded my entire speaker system. I cannot freakin' believe the difference in the soundstage. I'm also hearing detail in familiar recordings that I've never heard before. I've been listening to music like a maniac for the last several days and I can't get this big stupid grin off my face.

 

[Steve42]

I just have to smile. Good stuff.
Before jumpimg the gun on just how much beter the new driver is, I'll wait to hear of some results from some blind testing myself.

As Ron himself said:
"Is any of this Earth-shatteringly in its impact? Not, but there are other more effective aspects to durability enhancements, some visible, some not. None are revolutionary, all help a bit."

and

"For the record, the Plus 12.3 woofer is NOT ‘the second coming’."

I'm sure it's good, but I'm guessing if they are not raising prices of the subs, that they are not going to be losing any money compared to the old er ones either.

 

[Hi Ho]

That new driver looks very similar to my Ascendant Atlas 12". So similar, it's almost identical...

 

[Ilkka]

That new driver looks very similar to my Ascendant Atlas 12". So similar, it's almost identical...

Identical? I noticed that the lower spider is different (not just colour ), it is a dual VC driver, no sewn-in tinsel leads...etc. Sure the basket is similar/identical, but otherwise they are probably pretty different.