New speaker purchase and set up

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bkh8

Audiophyte
I am new to the site and was hoping to get some input into my set up. I had made a really nice post with links and a pic but i dont have 5 posts yet so no links.

I have a room that is 18 x 21' with 10' ceilings. There is a large window on the right of the tv. There is a sectional which will be about 9 feet back from the wall (so in the middle of the room). There will be about 8-9 feet between the back of the sectional and the back wall. The room will be closed off with a door.

I have an avr Yamaha-RX-V671 already.

I am looking in getting :
TV: Panasonic-VIERA-TC-P65ST50 $2200 Amazon

So I need speakers for my room. Should I get 5.1 or is it worth it to get 7.1 speakers. Looking around the site is seems that this is a popular choice for front speakers:

Front: FOCAL-Chorus-814V-716v $750 Accessories4less
Center: FOCALCC814V- $300 Accessories4less
Sub: Hsu vtf-1mk2 $450 hsuresearch
Surrounds; Polk Rc65i $130 newegg

Total speakers: $1630

Any thoughts or suggestions about this?

I am going to do the install myself. I have wired my house for cat 5 in the past and so have some idea about fishing wire through walls. I guess I will need in wall speaker wire, and wall plates. Is there a special wire for the sub?

I was going to get:
16 gauge in wall speaker wire from accesories 4 less, Wall plate and banana plugs from monoprice

Thanks for your help.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Hi there! Welcome to the forum.

That's a very nice room size, and even better that it is an enclosed room, and somewhat dedicated to audio/video!

It sounds as though you plan to have the TV on the 21' wall, meaning that the room will be 21' wide, and 18' from front to back. Is this correct?

The 65" screen size is a good choice. With a 9' viewing distance, that's just about perfect, really. At least according to the SMPTE recommendation ;) And there's no question that the Panasonic plasmas are the best consumer displays at the moment. The ST50 are just a tremendous value. So I am VERY on board with that choice!

Your room is between 3000 and 4000 cubic feet in volume. That puts you squarely in the "large, but not huge" room segment. I would recommend a higher output subwoofer than the VTF-1 MK2, to be honest. You don't have to go crazy. A Rythmik FP15HP or SVSound PB13-Ultra is not necessary just in terms of sheer output in your case ;) But you should consider something like the SVSound PB or PC12-NSD, Outlaw LFM-1 EX, or HSU VTF-3 MK4 for that size of room. That is, if you want to be able to hit full Reference Volume levels. If you prefer quieter playback, you can "get away" with less output.

Depending on how many seating positions you consider important, you should also give serious consideration to using dual subwoofers. With one subwoofer, if you place it carefully and do a bit of EQ, you can get very good results at one seat. But a lone subwoofer will always create non-uniform bass. As you move from seat to seat, the bass will change. Some seats will be in "peaks" where the bass is way too loud. And other seats will be in "nulls", where you'll get almost no bass at all. If you only care about one seat, then this is no big deal. But if you care about multiple seats, the only real solution is to have more than one subwoofer. The two subwoofers, in a rectangular room, should be placed directly opposite one another. As in, one on the font wall and one on the back wall, or one on each side wall. Or in opposite corners diagonally. With two subwoofers set up this way, and some EQ, you can get nice, linear, uniform bass at multiple seats. You also get a small increase in overall loudness, but not as much as you might expect. It won't be "twice as loud". But it will be "somewhat louder" - about 3dB louder.

If price is a concern, I can certainly understand that. Consider subwoofers like the HSU VTF-2 MK4, Outlaw LFM-1 Plus, or SVSound PB-1000 if you have multiple seats, and thus you want dual subs, but you still want to keep the price down. Of course, if money is not a concern, dual subs in any of the larger, more expensive models is great too! I'd certainly never turn down dual SVSound PB13-Ultras ;) But these are great options for getting dual subs for around $1000-$1100 that will do an acceptable job of handling your room size in terms of output. If you like to play things really loud, these might bump up against their upper limits. But you should be ok. Very few people listen at full Reference Volume.

For the speakers, in your case, since you'll have a good 8 feet or maybe even a bit more behind you, you would actually benefit from using a full 7 speaker setup. For most folks, 5 speakers are the better choice. But most folks have less open space behind their seats. The Surround Back 6th & 7th channels were meant for setups exactly like yours. The Surround 4th & 5th channels should go directly to either side of your seats, or just slightly behind them. The Surround Back 6th & 7th channels should be directly behind you on the back wall. This will truly surround and envelop you with sound. If you can't afford the 6th & 7th speakers right away, that's ok. It's certainly not the end of the world. But you will actually benefit from having all 7 speakers. Many other people won't. But you will. So consider yourself lucky :)

For the choice of speakers, I must encourage you to do some listening, and try to figure out what sort of sound you really like. Listen to some Klipsch speakers. Listen to some Paradigm speakers. Listen to the Pioneer Andrew Jones speakers at Best Buy. Listen to some Martin Logans. You should be able to find demos of those (and hopefully other) speakers in stores.

I'm a Focal fan. I'm happy to see other folks on this forum starting to recommend Focal! But that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be your favorite speakers, too. I'm not a Klipsch fan, but for some people, it's what they really like! So it's very important to figure out what you like.

In video, there are very specific industry standards. There's a "right" and "wrong" when it comes to how your TV looks. We can measure and calibrate the picture, and tell exactly how far away your TV is from the industry standard. But no such standard exists for audio. There's no clearly defined "right" or "wrong". If you like Klipsch (just as an example) more than I do, that's perfectly valid! I'd only say that speakers that utterly fail to reproduce all of the sounds contained within a recording are "wrong", and not really doing the full job of a good speaker. But there are plenty of good speakers that still sound quite different from one another. So it's important to do some listening, come back a discuss what you liked and didn't like, and then we can make much better recommendations for your tastes. Maybe get you the sound you really like for a better price ;)

I've certainly no beef with the Focal speakers if you already know you like their sound, or even if you just really like the way they look, and that's what made you lean towards them. They are certainly good speakers. They do not fail at reproducing all the sounds in any given recording. But it simply might turn out that you really like a different sound quality or look much better. So it's worth doing a bit of auditioning first :)

Hope that helps!
 
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bkh8

Audiophyte
zieglj01 Thanks for the reply. Do focal and polk not get along? :)

Also I guess I had the gauge thing backwards...should I get 12 gauge instead of 14 even?

I did want the vtf2 at least you are right. The vtf3 will be more powerful I take it?

How do these focals compare to the polk rtia5's or the infinity primus p363 which seem to be popular.
 
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bkh8

Audiophyte
first reflection: Great post! Thanks for all the information. Would you use the same in wall speakers that you use for the rears as your side speakers?

Also my receiver only has an ouput for one sub? Is that a problem? Maybe I get one subwoofer now and add another later... I think I will at least upgrade to the vtf-3. I will also look at the other recommendations you posted.

I live in Boise and there are no focal dealers here for me to listen to the speakers....it just looked like a good deal.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
zieglj01 Thanks for the reply. Do focal and polk not get along? :)

Also I guess I had the gauge thing backwards...should I get 12 gauge instead of 14 even?

I did want the vtf2 at least you are right. The vtf3 will be more powerful I take it?

How do these focals compare to the polk rtia5's or the infinity primus p363 which seem to be popular.
Well if mainly for surround effects, maybe Focal and Polk will survive.
However, not in my house.:)

Wire is cheap, 12 awg is fine - however, 14 awg will work

I would go with the VTF-3 sub

I will hands-down take Focal, over the Polk RTi and Primus speakers.

Your option and choice.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
In regards to the speaker wire: yes, the LOWER the AWG (American Wire Gauge) number, the thicker the wire. So 12 AWG is thicker than 14 AWG, which is thicker than 16 AWG. Basically, the longer the length of wire, the thicker it should be in order to keep resistance to a minimum. My own personal rule of thumb is to use 12 AWG for any length greater than 40 feet, 14 AWG for any length in the range of 20-40 feet, and 16 AWG is fine for under 20 feet, although I tend to use 14 AWG at the minimum. Speaker wire is cheap ;)

Monoprice has in-wall rated speaker wire - it's got the white outer jacket and then red and black leads inside. And they sell the wall plates, speaker binding post wall plate inserts, and banana plugs. So you can just get everything you need from them.

For connecting two subwoofers, you simply split the subwoofer output on your Receiver using a Y-splitter. Subwoofer cable is just RCA coax cable. Nothing fancy :)

It's nice to keep the timbre and overall sound quality of all 5 or 7 speakers similar. I consider it vital for the front 3 speakers to have identical sound quality. When a sound pans across the front sound stage, you don't want it sounding different as it moves from Left to Center to Right, or vice versa. It should create the illusion of a real object simply moving across the front of your room. Easier said than done! But it's great when the effect is done perfectly, so your front 3 speakers need to sound exactly the same in order for that to happen.

The surround and surround back speakers are not quite as vital. I still prefer it when it sounds like a real object is simply panning around me to the sides or back, or flying directly overhead. And in order for that to happen, the front 3 speakers and the surrounds need to all sound identical. But the primary job of the surround and surround back speakers is to create ambience and to "blanket" the audience. So it isn't quite so vital that they perfectly match the front 3. Still, I certainly much prefer it when they're at least a pretty close match.

I also happen to favor diffuse surround speakers. This is actually what THX recommends. THX recommends di-pole surround speakers with regular monopole surround back speakers.

I actually prefer bi-pole surround speakers.

When you go to a full-sized movie theater, you'll notice there are lots of speakers on the side and back walls. All of the speakers on the side wall play the exact same thing. This actually leads to a lot of sound wave interaction. In a big movie theater, this has the effect of making everything coming from the side walls sound very diffuse and difficult to pin-point.

Di-pole speakers mimick this effect rather well. In a di-pole speaker, you basically have two speakers in one cabinet, with one side firing at an angle towards the front of the room, and the other side firing at an angle towards the back of the room. And in a di-pole, the two sides are out of phase, meaning that when the front side moves outward, the back side movies inward, and vice versa. This out of phase movement creates a ton of sound wave interference, similar to the multiple speakers on the side walls of a full-sized movie theater. So you get a very "fuzzy" and indistinct sound from di-pole surround speakers.

I prefer bi-pole surround speakers. Bi-pole speakers have a very similar look - essentially two speakers in one box with one side angled toward the front of the room, and the other side angled toward the back of the room. But in a bi-pole, both sides fire in phase. So both sides move outward at the same time, and inward at the same time. This basically just creates a speaker with exceptionally wide dispersion. I happen to really prefer that sound. It does a better job of "blanketing" and enveloping the audience in a home theater - especially if you have more than one row of seating - but it does so without sounding "fuzzy" and indistinct.

For the surround back speakers on the back wall, I always just use regular monopole speakers. And you can certainly still use regular monopole speakers in the surround positions as well. Virtually all mixing booths and multi-channel studios just use monopole speakers in all the positions. But that's a little bit misleading. When the engineers and mixers are making adjustments to the recording, they're listening for the utmost in details. They want to hear every change they make. They want things to stick out like a sore thumb. But when it's time for actual playback in a home setting, things are not supposed to stick out the way they do in a studio. The studio is a bit like seeing things under a microscope. But never-the-less, you can certainly use regular monopole speakers as your surrounds. So that's the very long way of saying that, yes, you can use the same model of speaker for both the surrounds and the surround backs ;) But I happen to prefer using bi-pole speakers for the surrounds, and regular monopole speakers for the surround backs.

The Focal Chorus 800 series speakers are quite a large improvement over the Polk RTi speakers and the Infinity Primus. The accessories4less prices ARE a very good deal. That's why people around here are so excited about them! ;)

I'm not a Polk fan at all. Simply put, almost everyone who buys Polk speakers gets them as their first big upgrade over a HTiB or TV speakers, but then winds up upgrading from the Polks. They're not terrible, but there's just a lot of detail and sound stage depth missing from them. I find, at least.

The Infinity Primus are great entry-level speakers. But the Focal Chorus are considerably more refined. That said, my love of Focal is really mostly for their Electra series, and I am really smitten with their Beryllium tweeters. VERY expensive stuff, the Electra Be series, though :D

The less expensive Chorus 700 have a bit of coloration, I found. Pretty sure most of it comes from the cabinets of the speakers themselves, which aren't exactly inert. The Chorus 800 series are very good. I find them a teeny bit etched on the high end. Like there's just a touch of "bite" to high pitched sounds. And I find the Chorus 800 towers to have a bit of "bloom" in the lower mid-bass. In other words, I wouldn't call them brutally neutral speakers. They have a bit of character to them. But all the sound is there. There's no detail missing the way I find the Polks to sound. And there's no sense of any portion of the sound nearing the verge of getting a bit out of control the way the Infinity Primus speakers sound. But they are not clinically accurate speakers, either.

So that's why I think it's important for you to audition a number of other brands. It's not to necessarily hear the Focal Chrous 800 speakers in person. That would be great, but it's not entirely necessary. It's more for you to simply experience hearing several "good", but different sounding speakers. You'll discover that you prefer certain sound characteristics to others. If you listen to Klipsch, Paradigm, Pioneer, and Martin Logan - and you happen to really love one of them over the others - we'll be able to tell from that what sort of sound characteristics you really prefer :)
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
+1 with some of the other poster's advice, I would definitely go for a bigger subwoofer, the VTF3 would be great, especially at its sale price, and I would also look into the Power Sound Audio XV15. I would not spend a lot of money on the surrounds, especially if you are on a tight budget. In fact, I would not sacrifice the front stage speakers or a good sub at all for surround speakers, so if you have to, just go for 3.1 with the surrounds and a beefy Hsu sub for the time being and get some surround speakers later. Personally, I prefer bookshelf speakers for surrounds, they can provide a defined sound stage if the sound track calls them to do so, and they are less expensive. Just remember that the surround speakers are by far the least important channels.
 
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bkh8

Audiophyte
Those are all very helpful posts. Can you get in wall bipole speakers or do they have to be bookshelf?

I guess I am not opposed to bookshelf rears which I could mount on the wall. I was just thinking aesthetically it might be better..

I have seen the fluance AVBP2 or Definitive Technology XTR-20BP Ultra Thin at amazon for mids and maybe

BOSTON ACOUSTICS PW820 8" for 180 at accessories4less. (sorry I still cant post links) for rears.

Would these have closer sound signature to the focals or do you have another suggestion?

Also, generally speaking, are bookshelves going to be a lot better than inwall speakers?

I feel a little clueless about choosing a sub. I looked at the SVSound PB PC12-NSD, Outlaw LFM-1 EX, HSU VTF-3 MK4, and the Power Sound Audio XV15.

Are these all basically equivalent and I can choose on price or are there some advantages to choose one over the other. It looks like the powersound has a bigger driver and more CW watts which I imagine is better, but cost 150 bucks more
 
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bkh8

Audiophyte
Actually just realized the price was for one not for a pair.. How about these for rear surround:

BOSTON ACOUSTICS PW820 8" for 70 a piece at accessories for less
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
BOSTON ACOUSTICS PW820 8" for 180 at accessories4less. (sorry I still cant post links) for rears.

Would these have closer sound signature to the focals or do you have another suggestion?

Also, generally speaking, are bookshelves going to be a lot better than inwall speakers?

I feel a little clueless about choosing a sub. I looked at the SVSound PB PC12-NSD, Outlaw LFM-1 EX, HSU VTF-3 MK4, and the Power Sound Audio XV15.
If going in-wall for surround, then the Boston will work

Bookshelves is my preference - and if budget permits for surrounds,
then Focal
Dedicated Audio - Focal Chorus 705V Loudspeaker -- WENGE

The sub choices are nice - it mainly comes down to nit-picking.:)
 
B

bkh8

Audiophyte
Ok. I looked at the focals. That is a little more than I want to spend and they dont seem to come in black..

B
 
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