New receiver, phono level very low compared to CD?

[ericsdeadletteroffice]

Bought a Marantz SR6011 receiver and a Marantz CD6006. My turntable is a Pro-Ject Carbon Debut.

In my old receiver there was no proper phono input so I went into a cheap BBE preamp. Model FJB-200X to be exact. With that set up there was no wide margin of volume difference between the turntable and any other input.

I assumed the phono input on this receiver being $1,400 would be decent. So either I'm doing something wrong, or I was wrong.

PS, I used the set up assistant on the TV so I don't THINK I did anything wrong.

If the answer is simply "yeah, phono input's on receivers are never going to be as good as even a shitty phono preamp like your BBE" then I have 2 questions: What IS a good one that won't break the bank. And secondly, would that still go into the phono input on the SR6011, or would that need to go into an AUX?

On a positive note, the playback from the CD is outstanding. And the set up assistant has the subwoofer balance perfect!

Thanks again guys. I'm getting closer.

 

[3db]

I use the phono stage on my Yamaha RX-V1800 and it sounds great. Phono stages aren't rocket science and have been around for a very long time. Buying an expensive unit is a waste of money. Perhaps the phono stage on your Marantz isn't working properly. Are you using the factory default cartridge supplied by ProJect?

 

[ericsdeadletteroffice]

Are you using the factory default cartridge supplied by ProJect?

Yes.

 

[PENG]

Yes.

The cartridge that comes with the Debut will likely be the Ortofon OM 10 or 2M Red. Either one should be able to drive the SR6011 to rated output.

When I had the Carbon Debut I found the RCA cord that came with it was a low quality one. It also fit very loosely. Being under the turntable, it could have become a little too loose for a solid connection without being noticed. If that is not the problem then I guess there is something wrong with you receiver because for phono there is no settings to play with, you cannot make a mistake.

 

[PENG]

By the way, when you said the level was very low compared to the other output but how much lower. Say if for CD the volume is at -20, what would it be for the phono input. If the difference is not more than 10-15, then it may be normal. Too bad my Pro-jet is too far away from my Marantz AV for me to try, but I can do it when I have some free time.

 

[TLS Guy]

Bought a Marantz SR6011 receiver and a Marantz CD6006. My turntable is a Pro-Ject Carbon Debut.

In my old receiver there was no proper phono input so I went into a cheap BBE preamp. Model FJB-200X to be exact. With that set up there was no wide margin of volume difference between the turntable and any other input.

I assumed the phono input on this receiver being $1,400 would be decent. So either I'm doing something wrong, or I was wrong.

PS, I used the set up assistant on the TV so I don't THINK I did anything wrong.

If the answer is simply "yeah, phono input's on receivers are never going to be as good as even a shitty phono preamp like your BBE" then I have 2 questions: What IS a good one that won't break the bank. And secondly, would that still go into the phono input on the SR6011, or would that need to go into an AUX?

On a positive note, the playback from the CD is outstanding. And the set up assistant has the subwoofer balance perfect!

Thanks again guys. I'm getting closer.

You can answer your question. Connect your BBE preamp to the turntable, and the BBE to an aux input on the receiver, NOT phono. If that solves your problem then your receiver has a lousy RIAA preamp section, which would not surprise me at all. Let us know the result.

 

[lovinthehd]

You can also see if you can raise the input level of the phono input in your avr, at least I believe you can on that model.

 

[ericsdeadletteroffice]

You can answer your question. Connect your BBE preamp to the turntable, and the BBE to an aux input on the receiver, NOT phono. If that solves your problem then your receiver has a lousy RIAA preamp section, which would not surprise me at all. Let us know the result.

I thought of that last night and intend to try it tonight.

 

[ericsdeadletteroffice]

You can also see if you can raise the input level of the phono input in your avr, at least I believe you can on that model.

I'll look at the manual. I didn't think of that. The capabilities of these new receivers is over my head to be honest.

 

[lovinthehd]

Does your avr have a source level selection under the "Inputs" selection in the setup menu?

 

[ericsdeadletteroffice]

By the way, when you said the level was very low compared to the other output but how much lower. Say if for CD the volume is at -20, what would it be for the phono input. If the difference is not more than 10-15, then it may be normal. Too bad my Pro-jet is too far away from my Marantz AV for me to try, but I can do it when I have some free time.

I think it was around 10-15. I also noticed that the sound from the turn table had some harshness to it. Not blatant, but to my ear like what I would normally regard as digital artifact/distortion type textures in the highs. Which is strange as I'm only using analog outs and ins.I did not experience this through the BBE and into my old Sony receiver.

Even at 10-15 difference, if I had been playing a record, and switch over to CD without lowering the volume first, the CD is really loud. Loud enough to startle me.

I'll try the BBE tonight through an AUX. I think that will be a good test. If that sounds better and has better output then I'll probably exchange the 6011 for the 5011 and buy a nice stand alone phono preamp. Part of the reason I opted for the 6011 was that it had a built in phono preamp so I figured it must be of decent quality and if I got the 5011 I'd have to buy one, so the price difference was all evening out in my head. But I may have been wrong on that. Also, I will never use 9 channels. 7 would be plenty for me.

 

[ericsdeadletteroffice]

Does your avr have a source level selection under the "Inputs" selection in the setup menu?

No idea. I'm seriously old school. I'm used to having a bass, treble and balance knob on the front of a receiver with a big needle for the radio. I plugged it into my TV and did what it told me to do. That's all I really know as of now.

 

[lovinthehd]

No idea. I'm seriously old school. I'm used to having a bass, treble and balance knob on the front of a receiver with a big needle for the radio. I plugged it into my TV and did what it told me to do. That's all I really know as of now.

Look on your remote for a "setup" button to get the menu....at least that's how my Denon works, figure they're similar since they're sister brands.

 

[ericsdeadletteroffice]

Look on your remote for a "setup" button to get the menu....at least that's how my Denon works, figure they're similar since they're sister brands.

I will tonight. I'll report back my findings.

I generally use this for music only, thus far. The tiny display on it is fine for turning to an input, but having to drag out an HDMI cable and running to my TV each time I want to go into settings kind of makes me wish I had got a Denon maybe with a normal sized display. The Marantz is pretty, but it might be best suited to be hooked to a TV at all times. I eventually am going to do that, but I need to fish up the wall, across my crawl space and back down where there TV is. I suspect that's going to take me some time to get too.

 

[sterling shoote]

I generally need to play my albums at -40 to -36db and CD's at about -50db to hear what seems to be a matching volume. I have 3 carts: Shure 97xE, Shure V15V-MR, & Ortofon 2M Red, all requiring about the same gain for similar volume. Seems to be what others here have alluded to, 10 to 15db more gain necessary on phono input for level to match CD input.

 

[3db]

I would definately expect a lower output from a phono stage than from a line level source such as a CD. I dont like that you are hearing harshness ftom the phono stage. Perhaps your AVR has a bad phono stage. Does it sound harsh with all the vinyl you've tried?

 

[ericsdeadletteroffice]

I would definately expect a lower output from a phono stage than from a line level source such as a CD. I dont like that you are hearing harshness ftom the phono stage. Perhaps your AVR has a bad phono stage. Does it sound harsh with all the vinyl you've tried?

Yes. It's not like a "something is broken", obvious thing. But it's apparent if you have ears. It certainly was not there with the BBE through the old Sony. And it's not there playing music through the CD player or off iPhone.

 

[ericsdeadletteroffice]

Ok, so I did the direct to phono input vs into BBE pre-amp then into an AUX shootout which resulted in learning that the BBE was actually 3 db quieter than straight into the phono.

So I went back to the phono input and compared the CD input with the same album on CD vs on vinyl. I found that the CD was around 10 db louder than the vinyl.

I then got into settings and found that you can adjust the output of any individual output, as suggested in this thread. I used a db meter on my iPhone and balanced it out by pumping the phono output up.

For all I know, the CD output is hot. Once I get other devices like my Apple TV and Direct TV hooked up to it I'll have more reference and be able to decide if that needs to come down as opposed to balancing anything further to that.

So for now, crisis adverted.

I still feel like overall the system is a little crisp sounding. While in the settings I looked for how to look at the treble adjustment, but I couldn't find anything. The speakers are the same, so maybe the Sony I had was just a darker sounding receiver and I'm not used to hearing my tweeters so much. So maybe I'm just not used to it yet.

Thank you all again for your thoughts, ideas, and input. It's really helped an old dog learn some new tricks.

 

[ericsdeadletteroffice]

The cartridge that comes with the Debut will likely be the Ortofon OM 10 or 2M Red. Either one should be able to drive the SR6011 to rated output.

When I had the Carbon Debut I found the RCA cord that came with it was a low quality one. It also fit very loosely. Being under the turntable, it could have become a little too loose for a solid connection without being noticed. If that is not the problem then I guess there is something wrong with you receiver because for phono there is no settings to play with, you cannot make a mistake.

It appears to be Ortofon.

 

[PENG]

It appears to be Ortofon.

The OM 10 and 2M Red are both made by Ortofon, the 2M Red has a little higher output. Anyway, if there is 10-15 dB between phono and CD I think you are fine. If you are getting audible distortions you may want to double check the alignment and tracking weight following Ortofon/Pro-ject instructions. I am pretty sure the Marantz and Denon AVRs have the same phono stage in all models as their published specs are identical word for word, so unless your unit is defective (possible but unlikely), returning it for another model isn't likely going to help. Obviously the easiest first step is to try using your BBE through the aux to compare, though I highly doubt that box can do any better.

Now you got me curious enough to want to try my Xpression on the Marantz AVP this weekend. If I do I 'll let you know the volume level difference between CD and phono. I am still guessing around 10 dB, going by memory and feeling at the time. This time I will take measurements with a spl meter.

Edit: I didn't read your post#18 until after, but then now I know I guessed right about the 10dB difference.