New power amp, need quidance/advice.

C

ctwed

Audioholic Intern
I have just acquired a 5.1 power amp. This unit generates 150 watts per channel. According to the manual channels are bridgeable. I would like to bridge two of the channels to two others to yield (2) 300 watt outputs. The manual is silent on mechanically how to accomplish this task. I would appreciate any guidance on the bridgeing process. Thanks - ctwed
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I have just acquired a 5.1 power amp. This unit generates 150 watts per channel. According to the manual channels are bridgeable. I would like to bridge two of the channels to two others to yield (2) 300 watt outputs. The manual is silent on mechanically how to accomplish this task. I would appreciate any guidance on the bridgeing process. Thanks - ctwed
If the amps have no switch to do this you will need good DIY skills. I don't recommend you do this unless you.are experienced. If you don't know what you are doing you blow up your amp very easily and quickly.

The amps must be able to drive loads half their rated impedance.

The principle is that the amps have to be carefully balanced, with an opamp circuit. Years ago it was done with a transformer. One amp will produce the positive side of the wave form and the other the negative. So the speaker is connected across the positive of the two balanced amps. If the balance is not perfect then distortion products will be high. Also HF oscillation can be a problem. NEVER CONNECT A SPEAKER TO A NEGATIVE TERMINAL OR A BIG BLOW UP WILL ENSUE.

When amps say they are bridgeable it only certifies that the speakers negatives can be connected together and that generally it is comfortable driving half its rated impedance.

Here is the best I could find off the Net that shows you how to do this.

http://sound.westhost.com/project14.htm

There are two circuits given here. You will need to make a power supply, or pick up the +12 to 15 volt and -12 to 15 volts from the amp or preamp if they have them.

Do not begin to try this unless you understand this post.

Frankly I would not think a chassis with five amps on it would be suitable fro bridging. The power supply will likely run out of gas and you will gain nothing, except that you will have leaned something along the way.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
The amps must be able to drive loads half their rated impedance.
Pay close attention to this point. People think they can bridge an amp to get twice the power output without giving anything up. However, bridged amps see 1/2 the impedance on the output terminals. So if the amp can't handle a 4 ohm load initially then you can't use an 8 ohm speaker. If it can't handle a 2 ohm load, you can't use a 4 ohm speaker.

Most amp bridging projects aren't necessary and are ill advised. You just end up creating a device that puts out twice the power and needs it just to deal with a lower impedance. Be sure you actually need the power at 1/2 the impedance.

Since you have a 5.1 system, I assume you have a powered sub. That means the mids and highs are all the amp has to drive. I'd be amazed if you ever needed 20 wpc for just the mids and highs assuming the home theater is in a typical home and not in an auditorium.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Power and bridging

Thanks for making clear what I was saying.

My only point of disagreement is power. The power divide is near or about 400 Hz. That is very much accepted as a rule of thumb. When looking at the spectrum meter in WaveLab, that shows it to be true. There is actually very little energy in the regions that subs generally operate. It is just that the effects in the LFE channel in movie sound tracks is boosted 20db for effect. So what would have taken a watt without the effect EQ now requires 100 watts. In normal music listening most of the power is from 100 Hz to 2.5 KHz. For electronic music the power spectrum can be anything. I'm talking about acoustic instruments and voice.
 
C

ctwed

Audioholic Intern
Over my head.

Thanks to thew forum for the imput. This is not the direction I need to go.

I am looking at new 4 ohm speakers that are power hungry, hence the additional amp. Will I better off bi-amping the speakers? Two of the 5.1 for the main left, two on the 5.1 for the main right, one of the 5.1 for the center? (80/20 two channel music)
Thanks in advance,
ctwed
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Why dont youi tell us what the amp and speakers are?
Thanks to thew forum for the imput. This is not the direction I need to go.

I am looking at new 4 ohm speakers that are power hungry, hence the additional amp. Will I better off bi-amping the speakers? Two of the 5.1 for the main left, two on the 5.1 for the main right, one of the 5.1 for the center? (80/20 two channel music)
Thanks in advance,
ctwed
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
One big two channel would work well. Find a mono block for the center.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks to thew forum for the imput. This is not the direction I need to go.

I am looking at new 4 ohm speakers that are power hungry, hence the additional amp. Will I better off bi-amping the speakers? Two of the 5.1 for the main left, two on the 5.1 for the main right, one of the 5.1 for the center? (80/20 two channel music)
Thanks in advance,
ctwed
It all depends on what the crossover point of your speakers are and the impedance curve. Anyhow don't forget you need 10 times more power from an amp to double the sound pressure level, in other words make it play twice as loud. Doubling the amp power gains you 3db which is just perceptible, but not terribly significant. So there is not a lot to choose between a 10 watt amp and a 100 watt one. That is why way back when I was very happy with my tube amps.
 
C

ctwed

Audioholic Intern
My thinking:

Speakers: Martin Logan Summits or Vantage
Possible alternate: Legacy Focus or Wispers
Speakers still being auditioned.

Amp: Marantz MM9000 (5.1 @ 150w per)
Amp purchased from acquaintenance of friend, cheap.

If my thinking? works out, I will drive the front battery with the power amp (l,c,r). The rear speakers (2 or 4 depending) and (1) additional zone with the amp in my Denon 3808CI receiver.

Upgrade the amp if all is well at a later date.

I hope this helps, I am still learning this hobby.

ctwed
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
My thinking:

Speakers: Martin Logan Summits or Vantage
Possible alternate: Legacy Focus or Wispers
Speakers still being auditioned.

Amp: Marantz MM9000 (5.1 @ 150w per)
Amp purchased from acquaintenance of friend, cheap.

If my thinking? works out, I will drive the front battery with the power amp (l,c,r). The rear speakers (2 or 4 depending) and (1) additional zone with the amp in my Denon 3808CI receiver.

Upgrade the amp if all is well at a later date.

I hope this helps, I am still learning this hobby.

ctwed
Your Marantz MM9000 would seem to be a decent unit. It gives full rated output into four ohms.

I would just use its 5.1 channels of amplification to power a 5.1 system with speakers of your choice. I would not make it complicated. I would use an audio visual preamp rather than a receiver. You could add a two channel power amp and a couple of speakers to upgrade to 7.1 as funds permit. Keep it simple. There is no need to complicate this rig. If you over egg the cake it will fall flat!
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks for making clear what I was saying.

My only point of disagreement is power. The power divide is near or about 400 Hz. That is very much accepted as a rule of thumb. When looking at the spectrum meter in WaveLab, that shows it to be true. There is actually very little energy in the regions that subs generally operate. It is just that the effects in the LFE channel in movie sound tracks is boosted 20db for effect. So what would have taken a watt without the effect EQ now requires 100 watts. In normal music listening most of the power is from 100 Hz to 2.5 KHz. For electronic music the power spectrum can be anything. I'm talking about acoustic instruments and voice.
Yes, it would depend to a large extent on the speakers in question. My main speakers have little 6" woofers and 1" tweeters. They don't produce much bass. I have the sub crossover way, way above the normal 80 hz because the little speakers need the bass support. I don't use much amplifier power at all to drive them. The sub takes most of the power beating.

At one time I had some large full range towers (3 12" woofers per side along with a couple of mids and 5 tweeters per side.) It took more power to drive those, of course but I never gave them more than 100 wpc.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
I'll second that. The amp seems to me plenty hearty for the purpose. I'm not very familiar with model numbers but, if the Martin Logan are electrostatic, then 4 ohms might be a generous rating. Electrostatics can go very low in impedance at some frequencies. I'm not trying to scare you and I don't know the answer to the question I posed myself but take note that electrostatics are fussier than cones and domes - or even planars. As long as you stay away from bridging I would assume all will be well.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Midrange and HF power requiremments

Quote: - (My main speakers have little 6" woofers and 1" tweeters. They don't produce much bass. I have the sub crossover way, way above the normal 80 hz because the little speakers need the bass support. I don't use much amplifier power at all to drive them. The sub takes most of the power beating.)

I doubt that is always true. We are getting a little away from the members question, but we are getting into an important and I believe misunderstood area, which I have commented upon a number of times previously.

I'm going to make some observations and generalizations which may well get me into trouble yet again!

My first observation is that members, and I think owners of sound equipment in general, have a very difficult time really internalizing and understanding the significance of the logarithmic db scale. People tend to visualize all physical phenomina in a linear and not a log fashion. If relationships are log it leads people to erroneous assumptions.

For example I live in central Minnesota where it has been very, and unseasonably cold for early December. The local worthies who gather at the coffee clutch at the little Fort Benedict general store, post office, gas station and trading post have a hard time understanding why their home heating fuel consumption is so much higher than last year. Now Newton's law of cooling is a log curve. So lets keep a house at 68 F with en outside temp. of 32 F. That is a gradient of 36 F. Now lets take an outside air temp. of -4 F, the gradient is now 72 F. Assuming it is still air and the house temp. does not change, the fuel consumption will not double but increase ten fold! Now that is hard for the coffee clutchers to really internalize. The same with power and sound pressure levels, or perceived loudness.

Now back to the energy spectra of acoustic sounds. The energy spectra displays that I look at, show considerable acoustic energy from 250 to 2.5 KHz. The human voice of both sexes has great power in that range. The voices of operatic singers are particularly powerful. Strings, brass and woodwind have enormous energy in that range. The energy of the pipe organ extends with significant power out to 5KHz.

Annunaki posted a good article on the power requirements of subs, and thermal dynamic range compression in particular.

Now I would assert that this applies with even more significance to midrange drivers and even tweeters. Now tweeters usually crossover at 2.5 to 4 KHz. However filters are usually of a low order and so a tweeter is producing a good deal of it output below crossover. That can lead to the tweeter producing power, close, or even at or below resonance. That makes things sound rough. I have a rule in my designs to keep tweeters 24db or more down at their resonant frequency.

My next assertion is that many speakers, and probably the majority, have inadequate midrange power handling. I have always allowed for significant power handling in the midrange. Take a Dynaudio M75 mid range. That has a huge 2.5 inch voice coil with a vented gap. You really need to look at the motor systems of midrange and mid/bass drivers very carefully before selecting them. The same is true of tweeters with crossovers below 4 KHz and low order filters.

Now to total power. The dynamic range of music is huge, especially in the classical genre. People's audio systems are running out of gas much more often than they think. Having really powerful amps really does make a difference to the realism of reproduced sound, as long as the speakers can handle it without distortion and excessive thermal compression.

I know people are often aghast when I tell them the total amp power of my system is 1.7 KW. However that only produces twice the spl of a 170 watt system!

I know this is tough to get your arms round, but when it comes to power and spl think log.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks for making clear what I was saying.

In normal music listening most of the power is from 100 Hz to 2.5 KHz. For electronic music the power spectrum can be anything. I'm talking about acoustic instruments and voice.
You may be right in terms of average power. I do know that my speaker's bass drivers would draw much higher current than the mid range driver would, in music that features a lot of bass drum hits and/or canon shots (e.g.1812 overture).
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... Anyhow don't forget you need 10 times more power from an amp to double the sound pressure level, in other words make it play twice as loud. Doubling the amp power gains you 3db which is just perceptible, but not terribly significant. .
I think that is not correct. Perception of sound doubling is subjective and is considered needing 6x to 10x of power change and the same amount of SPL change. On the other hand doubling the sound pressure level is measurable and is a 3dB SPL increase and only needs doubling of power, not 10x. While the actual spl doubled perceptively it did not.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I think that is not correct. Perception of sound doubling is subjective and is considered needing 6x to 10x of power change and the same amount of SPL change. On the other hand doubling the sound pressure level is measurable and is a 3dB SPL increase and only needs doubling of power, not 10x. While the actual spl doubled perceptively it did not.
Here is a good article on the db scale. It also gets into weighting which I omitted.

Either way it is a log scale!

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/dB.html#absolute
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Here is a good article on the db scale. It also gets into weighting which I omitted.
Either way it is a log scale!
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/dB.html#absolute
Yes, it is a log scale and the weight scales apply to human perceptions, not the actual pressure levels in the air. The actual pressure change in pascals measurements double with a 3 dB change which requires 2x power.
Perception is a separate issue from the actual pressure levels.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Yes, it is a log scale and the weight scales apply to human perceptions, not the actual pressure levels in the air. The actual pressure change in pascals measurements double with a 3 dB change which requires 2x power.
Perception is a separate issue from the actual pressure levels.
Sound pressure level p in Pascals is = to the square root of the acoustic power Pac in watts multiplied by Z, the acoustic impedance of the medium, in this case air, divided by A the area of the receiving membrane, in this case the area of the tympanic membrane of the ear.

p=the square root of (Pac x Z/A)
 
wire

wire

Senior Audioholic
Your Marantz MM9000 would seem to be a decent unit. It gives full rated output into four ohms.

I would just use its 5.1 channels of amplification to power a 5.1 system with speakers of your choice. I would not make it complicated. I would use an audio visual preamp rather than a receiver. You could add a two channel power amp and a couple of speakers to upgrade to 7.1 as funds permit. Keep it simple. There is no need to complicate this rig. If you over egg the cake it will fall flat!
Yeh
Bridging and your Martin Logans might not be a good match ( could possibly fry that new amp ) . Most amps Bridged can only handle 8 ohm loads .
TLS guy is got the best answer yet .
 
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