New Here- Home theater/music setup advice

[max4334]

Hello all

My family and i are taking a stab at setting up a real good home theater system from scratch in most parts. Our media room is a mess with wires and such, so we decided to contact a NY a/v company to build us a system and take care of the wires. I walked into their showroom not knowing what to expect. I always thought our system was fairly decent, but man, wow, all I can say is we have been missing out on a lot. They had in wall speaker solutions, on walls, but what blew me away was the floor standing models they showed me. Music never sounded so good. I nearly cried. All the emotion, every thing just resonated in my body. It was like a drug trip it was so surreal. Then I got a look at the price tag, and im not so sure my folks would go for it. Even so, I thought id post the mock up just for feedback.

We used to have a very basic, generic Denon 5.1 system with an onkyo receiver we bought a few years later. Bookshelf speakers, nothing at all special. We have a medium sized room with a fairly high ceiling. We also have a 72 inch dlp from samsung

Onkyo 707 receiver (same one as we had before)
Rotel 5ch power amp
Vienna Acoustics Mozart Floor standing Speakers and matching center channel
Rel Low Profile Subwoofer
Universal remote with light dimmer

All in All comes out to about 8 grand, not including labor.

 

[GranteedEV]

Onkyo 707 receiver (same one as we had before)

I don't know much about Onkyo, but they wouldn't be my #1 choice either way. Still, if that's what you're using now and you're happy with it, leave it at that. Electronics make not a big difference.

Rotel 5ch power amp

Waste of money

Vienna Acoustics Mozart Floor standing Speakers and matching center channel

No thanks.

Rel Low Profile Subwoofer

Nope.

Universal remote with light dimmer

nice.

All in All comes out to about 8 grand, not including labor.

Whoa! Ripoff! Dude, you can do better!!!

I would get the universal remote with light dimmer.

Besides that, here's what I'd do

1) Add a 3 channel amp - Emotiva XPA-3
2) Add three real man subwoofers - SVS, Funkywaves, Seaton, or Rythmik
3) Add three REAL front speakers - maybe some Philharmonic 2's or Aperion Verus Grand?

That's all. Maybe a miniDSP and some measurement equipment, to properly integrate the subwoofers together.

Would probably total around 5k

 

[max4334]

I don't know much about Onkyo, but they wouldn't be my #1 choice either way. Still, if that's what you're using now and you're happy with it, leave it at that. Electronics make not a big difference.
Its a $600 receiver. I talked to a guy and he said it should be able to drive everything well enough. I cant imagine anything else would make that much of a difference.


Waste of money
Could you elaborate? I would assume i would need a good processor. The guy at the store described it as being able to take away most if not all of the digital harshness. I just fell in love with that idea.


No thanks.
Too expensive? They sounded absolutely amazing at the show room.


Nope.
What would be wrong with it?



nice.
Ceiling and light dimmer included. If only we had a way to control the air conditioning...


Whoa! Ripoff! Dude, you can do better!!!

I would get the universal remote with light dimmer.

Besides that, here's what I'd do

1) Add a 3 channel amp - Emotiva XPA-3
2) Add three real man subwoofers - SVS, Funkywaves, Seaton, or Rythmik
3) Add three REAL front speakers - maybe some Philharmonic 2's or Aperion Verus Grand?

That's all. Maybe a miniDSP and some measurement equipment, to properly integrate the subwoofers together.

Would probably total around 5k

Those are all brands i havent heard of. So, newby as i am, I am going to need a little more of an explanation if you could

 

[GranteedEV]

Its a $600 receiver. I talked to a guy and he said it should be able to drive everything well enough. I cant imagine anything else would make that much of a difference.

It won't, but Onkyos are just sketchy to me. Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, and Pioneer would be on my list before Onkyo. Here is a marantz receiver you should consider:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR6004/Marantz-SR6004-110w-X-7ch-Home-Theater-Surround-Receiver/1.html

Could you elaborate? I would assume i would need a good processor. The guy at the store described it as being able to take away most if not all of the digital harshness. I just fell in love with that idea.

There's no such thing as digital harshness. Total BULLSHIT. stuff will sound the same, and I doubt the rotel will add much power over what you already have, while being way overpriced for what it does give. If you want a separates amp, you need to at least double the power of the receiver amps before any meaningful advantage is obtained. And digital harshness is B.S.

Too expensive? They sounded absolutely amazing at the show room.

Easy for a speaker to sound good in a showroom especially to people who don't listen to higher end speakers, but the vienna acoustics don't really sound or measure all that great in all honesty. marketing driven brand.

The frequency response of the mozarts is a MESS:

These speakers unequivocal CRAP! Don't be fooled by auditions with a weak frame of reference. Ten days of living with them and you'll get sick of their total lack of any upper midrange whatsoever.

What would be wrong with it?

REL subs are gonna be overpriced, undersized, underperforming. There's way better options out there dollar for dollar.

Those are all brands i havent heard of. So, newby as i am, I am going to need a little more of an explanation if you could

Short story: they're better
Long story: they're better measurably, they sound better to the ears, they don't underperform at their price point, and they're all internet only companies so check out their websites if you like.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree with GranteedEV.

Even the $50K+ Vienna Acoustics Klimt box monopole speaker system measures like crap.

No thanks.

I would get the KEF Q900 front mains (superb measurements & sound) $570 ea:


http://www.hometheater.com/content/kef-q900-speaker-system


http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFQ900CH/KEF-Q900-Q-Series-8-inch-Cherry-Floorstanding-Speakers-Each/1.html

KEF Q60 center: $400
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFQ600CWLN/KEF-Q600C-6.5in.-3-way-Walnut-Center-Channel-Speaker/1.html

KEF Q100 surrouncs for $300/pr:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFQ100CHY/KEF-Q100-Q-Series-5-1/4-inch-Cherry-Bookshelf-Speakers-pair/1.html


Marantz SR-6004 AVR for $470:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR6004/Marantz-SR6004-110w-X-7ch-Home-Theater-Surround-Receiver/1.html


Oh, yeah, I forgot, dual Rythmik F12 subs for $1,554 shipped:
http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/f12se.html

Grand total = $3,864.

Or dual Epik Legend subs for $900 + shipping. Grand total ~ $3330.

 

[max4334]

It won't, but Onkyos are just sketchy to me. Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, and Pioneer would be on my list before Onkyo. Here is a marantz receiver you should consider:



There's no such thing as digital harshness. Total BULLSHIT. stuff will sound the same, (Some circles will say otherwise. I dont mean to start ann argument, but i gotta say it sounded great. Could just be me tho)and I doubt the rotel will add much power over what you already have, while being way overpriced for what it does give. If you want a separates amp, you need to at least double the power of the receiver amps before any meaningful advantage is obtained. And digital harshness is B.S. rolleyes:)



Easy for a speaker to sound good in a showroom especially to people who don't listen to higher end speakers, but the vienna acoustics don't really sound or measure all that great in all honesty ((The showroom wasn't even set up correctly. Maybe my standards are too low after years of sub par crap). marketing driven brand.

The frequency response of the mozarts is a MESS:

Would you mind posting the freq response of one of the systems u suggested?

These speakers unequivocal CRAP! Don't be fooled by auditions with a weak frame of reference. Ten days of living with them and you'll get sick of their total lack of any upper midrange whatsoever.

(That does look bad i will admit. Poo)

REL subs are gonna be overpriced, undersized, underperforming. There's way better options out there dollar for dollar.



Short story: they're better
Long story: they're better measurably, they sound better to the ears, they don't underperform at their price point, and they're all internet only companies so check out their websites if you like.

Ok. fair enough

 

[GranteedEV]

Some circles will say otherwise. I dont mean to start ann argument, but i gotta say it sounded great. Could just be me tho)

I'm sure it sounded great. Any amp that isn't crap, will sound great, because amps don't sound like anything except whatever salespeoples' conditioning tells a listener to hear. Those "circles" of yours are just wrong but I'm not going to get into an argument. The only way an amp won't sound great, is if it's crap. I find Onkyo amps rather sketchy TBQH. Really feature packed receivers but they had to cut costs somewhere.

Would you mind posting the freq response of one of the systems u suggested?

here is a link to the Philharmonic 1 with not only on axis measurements, but horizontal off-axis measurements to 50 degrees. The Philharmonic 2 is almost the same speaker, but with one of, and possibly :the: best tweeters in the world. (not that the Philharmonic 1 doesn't have a great tweeter itself, but $400 more for RAAL tweeters is a ridiculously good deal)

(scroll down)

http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic1.html

Here is the subwoofer that IMO would wipe teh floor with the REL, and I recommend getting multiples because for bass, we want to load the room in such a manner that modes are excited equally. One subwoofer is never a high fidelity solution.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP.html

 

[GranteedEV]

Grand total = $3,864.

We`re both on our B-game today.

Here is a guy with 8k budget, and we`re recommending stuff below his budget that will rock whatever he's looking at


Maybe we can find a $4k universal remote control to fill in the rest of that budget

Seriously though, I recommend the front speakers be identical, and placed behind an acoustically transparent projection screen.

 

[slipperybidness]

Does the $8K quote include delivery, install, and setup? If so, maybe not quite as bad of a deal as it sounds. However, I agree that there is much better bang for the buck equipment out there than what was mentioned.

 

[slipperybidness]

sorry, now I see original post "not include labor".

yeah, go somewhere else.

 

[sholling]

Onkyo 707 receiver (same one as we had before)

It's a good little receiver and I have one in my bedroom but it's also 2 years old. If you're in the US you can buy a factory re-certified 707 for about $350 or a brand new TX-NR709 for about $800, or a really spiffy refurbished TX-NR5008 for $1500. I'd also look at Denon but not refurbished Denons - new only.

Rotel 5ch power amp

You can save some money by buying an Emotiva XPA-3 and run the surrounds off the receiver, or spring for an XPA-5. But then again if you pick reasonably sensitive speakers you may not need an external amp at all.

Vienna Acoustics Mozart Floor standing Speakers and matching center channel

Speakers are personal taste so you'll need to do lots research and decide what sounds best to you. Also keep in mind that room acoustics make a huge difference in how speakers sound and they may sound completely different once you get them home. That's why you should try to arrange to take your choice speaker home for a week or two and see how they sound in your room. I'd take my time and really research and audition as many speakers as possible.

Rel Low Profile Subwoofer

Generally you'll get a lot more sound quality and output bang for the buck going with an internet direct subwoofer specialist like Rythmik, Hsu Research, SVSounds, Elemental Designs etc. Subwoofer are sized to the total cubic footage of the room. I'd measure the room including any spaces (kitchens, hallways etc) open to your room and contact each of those suppliers and have them recommend a subwoofer solution. Without room size it's impossible to recommend a subwoofer. All are honest business people and none will try to oversell you - however they will snipe at each other's products.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We`re both on our B-game today.

Here is a guy with 8k budget, and we`re recommending stuff below his budget that will rock whatever he's looking at


Maybe we can find a $4k universal remote control to fill in the rest of that budget

Seriously though, I recommend the front speakers be identical, and placed behind an acoustically transparent projection screen.

I think 3 KEF Q900s for the fronts will be 100% awesome and blow away those Vienna Acoustics!

Then get 2 of the Q300 bookshelf speakers ($400/pr) for surrounds;
http://www.accessories4less.com/index.php?page=search&search_query=Q300

He could get 2 of the Q900 from A4L, and then buy a single from Amazon for $800, since A4L will only sell in pairs, I believe. He could ask.

 

[jinjuku]

Some circles will say otherwise. I dont mean to start ann argument, but i gotta say it sounded great. Could just be me tho

I'm still waiting for some people in 'those circles' that make unsubstantiated claims about pro audio amplification (that it's junk for the home fidelity environment) to come over, audition stone cold (that is a blanket over the electronics stack) my Crown XLS 402d vs my Parasound. If they can pick out which amp sounds better 9/10 times and it's the 'audiophile' amp I have publicly stated they can walk out the door with it.

Yet other circles believe in cable burn in. But when I offer $100 to a charity of their choosing if they can pick out the two burned vs non-burned in cables that I send them (randomly labeled) well in three threads it hasn't happened yet.

I don't mind claims of any sort, just be prepared to be challenged on them.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The snake oil crowd hates us Audioholics.

We are too, how shall I put it, science-oriented? We try our best to make a lot of sense, and they can't stand it!

 

[max4334]

Ok go somewhere else...for what?

 

[max4334]

The snake oil crowd hates us Audioholics.

We are too, how shall I put it, science-oriented? We try our best to make a lot of sense, and they can't stand it!

Oh boy I know that. So im going with floor standing. I suppose we can be persuaded to drop the amp.

 

[max4334]

It's a good little receiver and I have one in my bedroom but it's also 2 years old. If you're in the US you can buy a factory re-certified 707 for about $350 or a brand new TX-NR709 for about $800, or a really spiffy refurbished TX-NR5008 for $1500. I'd also look at Denon but not refurbished Denons - new only.


You can save some money by buying an Emotiva XPA-3 and run the surrounds off the receiver, or spring for an XPA-5. But then again if you pick reasonably sensitive speakers you may not need an external amp at all.


Speakers are personal taste so you'll need to do lots research and decide what sounds best to you. Also keep in mind that room acoustics make a huge difference in how speakers sound and they may sound completely different once you get them home. That's why you should try to arrange to take your choice speaker home for a week or two and see how they sound in your room. I'd take my time and really research and audition as many speakers as possible.


Generally you'll get a lot more sound quality and output bang for the buck going with an internet direct subwoofer specialist like Rythmik, Hsu Research, SVSounds, Elemental Designs etc. Subwoofer are sized to the total cubic footage of the room. I'd measure the room including any spaces (kitchens, hallways etc) open to your room and contact each of those suppliers and have them recommend a subwoofer solution. Without room size it's impossible to recommend a subwoofer. All are honest business people and none will try to oversell you - however they will snipe at each other's products.

15x30 is the room size

 

[Beatmatcher247]

I have a similar room and had,a peaker/amp budget. I went with a parasound newclassic 5250v2 and PSB Synchrony, one towers, center, and bookshelves. too my ears its a surreal experience for both movies and music. That amp will deliver 385w per rms at 4 ohms and plays nice with them even at high volumes 0db ref. Unlike a lot of center channels theirs is no slouch.

With a good street price you could get close to your budget. Dont get junk at full msrp with that 8k whatever you do. Those synchrony ones and the kefs above are all great speakers. Focal has some nice offerings too. I recommend listening to as many different speakers as you can and seeing what street prices you can get them at.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Oh boy I know that. So im going with floor standing. I suppose we can be persuaded to drop the amp.

I don't think you have to drop the amp.

I bet most of us here own external amps.

DenPureSound has a Denon 4311 & 3311 + Klipsch speakers that have very high sensitivity.

Yet, when he listened in MultiCh Stereo, the 3311 AVR went into protection mode in his room/ at his volume.

So he had to add an external amp.

So there is definitely a place for amps, just not every case.

But as Beatmacher says, don't ever pay full retail price!

 

[3db]

The frequency response of the mozarts is a MESS:

These speakers unequivocal CRAP! Don't be fooled by auditions with a weak frame of reference. Ten days of living with them and you'll get sick of their total lack of any upper midrange whatsoever.

What?
You don't like good looking furniture?

Their Baby Beethoven's measure like crap too with a similar drop in midrange as well. purple trace