New Denon, Marantz & Definitive Technology 2023 Products Show Report

[PENG]

If one of those 15 amps blows a power transistor, your whole system is dead in the water. If one speaker has trouble, then one speaker is down. If the unit is designed properly, then the owner can replace the offending module as soon as overnight UPS. We need better designs and longer lasting equipment. We just need good engineering and good novel design. If I were let loose, I could change design practice for the better pronto and save a lot of cash. What is on offer currently, is to my mind totally unsatisfactory.

It is unreliable, and this was brought home to me by an extended visit here from the owner of one of the Cities B & M stores. It is also not nearly as good as it could be. I think there is really bad value for money at the moment, to say nothing of awful aesthetics. If you think that a receiver weighing 75 Ib. that I could not even lift, that contains 15 class AB power amps, one power supply and microprocessors galore is good design, and even remotely a good idea, then you are overdue from some post graduate education.

By the way, in most homes AC outlets can be added without too much upheaval as a rule. Active speakers offer the prospect of a highly significant increase in SQ and overall reliability, for multiple reasons. As streaming increase at pace, it will open the way, for no receivers and no AVPs. There is no reason your cell phone or laptop could not control the lot. That would unite the budget for phones, computers and home AV. One of the reasons for decline in home AV is family competition for funds with Internet and Wi-Fi devices. For obvious reasons, phones etc. take priority. So lets unite it.

Come on guys, just stop clinging to yesterdays ways, and think of the possible we could do now and in the future.

If you think that receiver I keep mentioning is not the last train reaching the buffers, then there is a severe lack of creative thinking round here.

I would go for middle, and design a bunch of hybrid AVP/AVR that has pre outs for 15.1 but has only 6 to 8 internal class D amps rated 125 to 150 WPC to take care of the surround and Atmos/height speakers.

Denon can easily modify the A1H and mark it down to below $5,000, and modify the X4800H to below $2,000 and have just 4 internal class D amps rated 100WPC for the Atmos/height channels and let the owners to pick their own external amp for the 7 bed layer channels.

We know for a fact that many of the very old 7.1 AVRs are still running perfectly, such as my AVR-3805 (17 years), AVR-4308CI (15 years) so such hybrid AVP/Rs should let you relax a little about the issues associated with jamming too many power amps, and huge power supplies in one box.

The next thing to address is, AVPs with so many channels involving very powerful DSPs that not only have too many parts to fail but also heat to deal with, just take of look of those gigantic heat sinks used in the AV10's HDMI module:
Marantz' New AV10 and AMP10 Home Theater Separates - A Deep Dive - YouTube

That's just the HDMI, in that video you can see the countless parts in this thing, any of them can go wrong, using your power transistor blow up logic.

 

[Trell]

I would go for middle, and design a bunch of hybrid AVP/AVR that has pre outs for 15.1 but has only 6 to 8 internal class D amps rated 125 to 150 WPC to take care of the surround and Atmos/height speakers.

Denon can easily modify the A1H and mark it down to below $5,000, and modify the X4800H to below $2,000 and have just 4 internal class D amps rated 100WPC for the Atmos/height channels and let the owners to pick their own external amp for the 7 bed layer channels.

We know for a fact that many of the very old 7.1 AVRs are still running perfectly, such as my AVR-3805 (17 years), AVR-4308CI (15 years) so such hybrid AVP/Rs should let you relax a little about the issues associated with jamming too many power amps, and huge power supplies in one box.

The next thing to address is, AVPs with so many channels involving very powerful DSPs that not only have too many parts to fail but also heat to deal with, just take of look of those gigantic heat sinks used in the AV10's HDMI module:
Marantz' New AV10 and AMP10 Home Theater Separates - A Deep Dive - YouTube

View attachment 60533

That's just the HDMI, in that video you can see the countless parts in this thing, any of them can go wrong, using your power transistor blow up logic.

How many people today have even a 5.1 setup, never mind a large Atmos one? None of the people I know have it. My seven year old Denon AVR-X4200W has seven internal amps and I use only five of them, and the trend of ever more class AB amps in a cramped box that also have ever more electronics heating things up is not good for a long life.

 

[TLS Guy]

I would go for middle, and design a bunch of hybrid AVP/AVR that has pre outs for 15.1 but has only 6 to 8 internal class D amps rated 125 to 150 WPC to take care of the surround and Atmos/height speakers.

Denon can easily modify the A1H and mark it down to below $5,000, and modify the X4800H to below $2,000 and have just 4 internal class D amps rated 100WPC for the Atmos/height channels and let the owners to pick their own external amp for the 7 bed layer channels.

We know for a fact that many of the very old 7.1 AVRs are still running perfectly, such as my AVR-3805 (17 years), AVR-4308CI (15 years) so such hybrid AVP/Rs should let you relax a little about the issues associated with jamming too many power amps, and huge power supplies in one box.

The next thing to address is, AVPs with so many channels involving very powerful DSPs that not only have too many parts to fail but also heat to deal with, just take of look of those gigantic heat sinks used in the AV10's HDMI module:
Marantz' New AV10 and AMP10 Home Theater Separates - A Deep Dive - YouTube

View attachment 60533

That's just the HDMI, in that video you can see the countless parts in this thing, any of them can go wrong, using your power transistor blow up logic.

This is all industry hype PENG. I can assure that in a home environment even in a nine set theater you do not need more then six channels.

The seven channel bed layer and at the most four ceiling speakers is all you need.

You need to look at Dolby specs, and I followed them and all the speakers are located to spec, and it works perfectly. My 7705 makes very little heat, in fact less than the older AVPs.

I would go for middle, and design a bunch of hybrid AVP/AVR that has pre outs for 15.1 but has only 6 to 8 internal class D amps rated 125 to 150 WPC to take care of the surround and Atmos/height speakers.

Denon can easily modify the A1H and mark it down to below $5,000, and modify the X4800H to below $2,000 and have just 4 internal class D amps rated 100WPC for the Atmos/height channels and let the owners to pick their own external amp for the 7 bed layer channels.

We know for a fact that many of the very old 7.1 AVRs are still running perfectly, such as my AVR-3805 (17 years), AVR-4308CI (15 years) so such hybrid AVP/Rs should let you relax a little about the issues associated with jamming too many power amps, and huge power supplies in one box.

The next thing to address is, AVPs with so many channels involving very powerful DSPs that not only have too many parts to fail but also heat to deal with, just take of look of those gigantic heat sinks used in the AV10's HDMI module:
Marantz' New AV10 and AMP10 Home Theater Separates - A Deep Dive - YouTube

View attachment 60533

That's just the HDMI, in that video you can see the countless parts in this thing, any of them can go wrong, using your power transistor blow up logic.

I do not think there is a need for even 15 channel AVPs let alone receivers. In my 7.2.4 none seat theater I followed Dolby specs on speaker placement to the letter, and it works perfectly. I agree at least the front three should be external amps and preferably the bed layer. So my vote would be preouts and four amps for ceiling speakers. My 7705 does not make much heat, it is barely warm to the touch and actually runs cooler than previous generations.

HDMI needs to go, and as streaming becomes more prevalent the need for HDMI will become redundant. It is was overkill anyway, with all those handshakes going on in milliseconds. It is an absolute waste of resources and should be banned. I think we are absolutely at the point where there is no longer a need for it.

 

[Trebdp83]

The HDMI cable and current 2.1 spec are only as good as a device’s implementation of them, for which there is no real standard or hard rules. HDMI cables supporting ethernet can technically share the signal of a single device’s actual ethernet cable connection with all of the devices in a system connected together via HDMI but nobody ever cared to implement the HEC feature. HDCP is the real thorn in HDMI’s, USB-C’s and Display Port’s side. Any new cable standard will for sure be cursed with it.

 

[Trell]

The HDMI cable and current 2.1 spec are only as good as a device’s implementation of them, for which there is no real standard or hard rules. HDMI cables supporting ethernet can technically share the signal of a single device’s actual ethernet cable connection with all of the devices in a system connected together via HDMI but nobody ever cared to implement the HEC feature. HDCP is the real thorn in HDMI’s, USB-C’s and Display Port’s side. Any new cable standard will for sure be cursed with it.

HDCP sucks real bad and continually gives me various issues, like no sound, and I've to do a power off/on cycle to "fix" it. A new one I saw yesterday is when on my AppleTV used the back button (from watching a show) and was greeted with "Your TV does not support HDCP 2.1" with the only resolution to power off and then on.

 

[Danzilla31]

This part is pure BS!!

If you look inside the comparable Marantz (e.g. SR6014, 7013 and Denon (e.g. AVR-X4500H) receivers, and the available service manuals, you will see the following similarities:

- Same audio signal path parts and circuitry from input to output except Marantz's has the HDAMs that acts as an extra buffer in the pre out end, yet there is an Op amp of average quality right before the power amp input, for the front right/left channels. You get that same opamp in the Denon's since the AVR-X3600H and X4500H.
- Identical power amp section, I mean identical to the point even the bias voltages, rail voltages are the same.
- the power supply block diagrams and schematics are the same, except the 6000 series has a slightly larger power transformer but that's loosely based on their silly power consumption specs and bench measurements by ASR.

So what are the so called premium parts? The only thing I can see are the gold plated connectors, that are not found in the Denon 3000 and 4000 series.

May be the cinema series and the 2022/23 Denons have more differences but based on available info so far, I doubt that very much.

Regardless, how do you get those different sound signatures when the hardware, circuitry are the same, and measurements show distortions, noise, crosstalks, frequency response, damping factor, linearity, DR, power outputs are all virtually the same?

Do their soundmaster really tell their designers to tune the sound, by trial and error adjusting resistor, capacitor, inductor values, and if so, why would the bench test results show the same as that of Denon's. The only difference is in the frequency response graph for the digital input test using 44.1 kHz sampling rate. In that graph yes Marantz has the characteristic roll off from just below 10 kHz and dropped gradually, by about 2-2.5 dB by the time it reached 20 kHz. That seemed to say that's really what's behind the different sound, as in the AV10, there is the option to choose the different DAC output filters provided by the ESS DAC, many external dacs provide the same kind of options.

If you look at the FR using analog inputs, or digital inputs but using higher sampling frequency such as 96 kHz, the curve will be flat just like Denon's.

So again, this warrm sound vs precise/clear sound talks are pure (okay may be 99%, to allow for people with bat's ears playing digital contents of sampling freq below 48 kHz) BS.

Denon has a soundmaster too, wonder if he's the same one for Marantz, if not, you get paid more??

View attachment 60509

Finally, even if Marantz did use premium parts (I mean aside from gold plated connectors and the added HDAMs), and different circuitry, how do they explain the price premium for the Marantz vs corresponding Denon's

Do they think AV consumers in North America are silly enough who would fall for the Masimo/SU marketing BS?

Do they think AV consumers in North America are silly enough who would fall for the Masimo/SU marketing BS?

Ummmmmmm....... yeeeah?

 

[-Jim-]

Wow Gents , this article certainly brought out a response from most of the heavy hitters on the Forum. It really struck a nerve.

A statement in it: "While many of our auditions on the first day did focused on gear we cannot yet discuss" also caught my attention. I'm thinking this means the participants all had to sign some sort of NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) like those Car Websites who get first chance to look at (promote) new models well before the public. They get told by the manufacturer what they can say, and also when they can say it! (No freedom of the Press here.) So it's basically controlled free advertising for the OEMs. (@gene please comment if this is true.)

This also brought up thought's I've been having about Audioholics recently. It seems Audioholics has been migrating a bit more toward being a shill or promoter for the OEMs, and retailers (sorry Gene, just my opinion) which has become more evident since their recent alignment with AudioAdvice, and before that RBH, etc. => rather than an independent bastion of data driven science which always questions snake oil no matter where they find it. I value the latter immensely and without it my interest in the Forum will wane.

I think this Forum is a valuable resource, especially for those new, or looking to get into the hobby. (So that's where I focus my posts.) But doing $6500 or $7,000 USD AVR Reviews => not so much => even if they are interesting to the half of one percent of hardcore members who have the resources to buy one. (Just a guess, maybe I'm too high with that estimate.) I know there is some technology that will trickle down to the less expensive units in subsequent years, but by then the newest $10,000 AVR will be upon us, which is even more outrageous, but it'll have new tech to amaze us all. Right?

 

[BMXTRIX]

Come on guys, just stop clinging to yesterdays ways, and think of the possible we could do now and in the future.

There is certainly a place for active speakers. But, what happens when the speaker company goes out of business? Can you just swap out the active and proprietary electronics? What happens when they move to another model? You talk about not putting eggs in one basket, but this is exactly what you then talk about doing... at least as far as I can tell. What if they are short of replacement parts? Can you just swing by Best Buy and pick up an alternative? Likely not.

This is the thing with using industry standard parts across a theater design. If something fails, if something is outdated, you actually aren't down and out and in need of replacing an entire speaker because the amplifier fails. Especially if you end up with a $5,000+ speaker. In a better/higher end design, you may go with separate amps. Standard... Industry standard! amps. One fails, you replace one amp, and you can get it from any number of locations in a day, if not within hours. In ten years. In twenty years.

We don't have to agree on this, but I will make the argument that the plan you have requires extremely high confidence that the electronics available ten or twenty years from now will support the product you buy today.

Meanwhile, any client I have with a fifty year old speaker can be hooked up to any amp I have... or even one my grandchildren buy fifty years from now.

 

[TLS Guy]

Wow Gents , this article certainly brought out a response from most of the heavy hitters on the Forum. It really struck a nerve.

A statement in it: "While many of our auditions on the first day did focused on gear we cannot yet discuss" also caught my attention. I'm thinking this means the participants all had to sign some sort of NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) like those Car Websites who get first chance to look at (promote) new models well before the public. They get told by the manufacturer what they can say, and also when they can say it! (No freedom of the Press here.) So it's basically controlled free advertising for the OEMs. (@gene please comment if this is true.)

This also brought up thought's I've been having about Audioholics recently. It seems Audioholics has been migrating a bit more toward being a shill or promoter for the OEMs, and retailers (sorry Gene, just my opinion) which has become more evident since their recent alignment with AudioAdvice, and before that RBH, etc. => rather than an independent bastion of data driven science which always questions snake oil no matter where they find it. I value the latter immensely and without it my interest in the Forum will wane.

I think this Forum is a valuable resource, especially for those new, or looking to get into the hobby. (So that's where I focus my posts.) But doing $6500 or $7,000 USD AVR Reviews => not so much => even if they are interesting to the half of one percent of hardcore members who have the resources to buy one. (Just a guess, maybe I'm too high with that estimate.) I know there is some technology that will trickle down to the less expensive units in subsequent years, but by then the newest $10,000 AVR will be upon us, which is even more outrageous, but it'll have new tech to amaze us all. Right?

My thoughts exactly. By the way, I hope nothing trickles down from that 7K AVR in question, as the only trickle down will be grief frustration and being out pf pocket.
I have done this long enough to know a thoroughly bad idea, and that is the epitome of one.

This forum has helped many get started and solved numerous problems for lots of individuals who have wondered in and out over the years with frustrating problems that members here have helped solve. Also most of us have really sensitive and seasoned BS alarms, and I can be certain we have steered many away from items like exotic speaker and power cables costing a fortune.

This is all something to acknowledge and hope a service we can keep alive.

There is nothing wrong with futuristic posts concerning where members feel where future developments and technology should head. Respectful debate is really healthy. If I were In one of these big audio outfits, I would pay more attention to experienced members here, than their marketing staff, who will be wrong far more often than by chance.

So for one I will call it like I see it, until they kick me off.

 

[TLS Guy]

There is certainly a place for active speakers. But, what happens when the speaker company goes out of business? Can you just swap out the active and proprietary electronics? What happens when they move to another model? You talk about not putting eggs in one basket, but this is exactly what you then talk about doing... at least as far as I can tell. What if they are short of replacement parts? Can you just swing by Best Buy and pick up an alternative? Likely not.

This is the thing with using industry standard parts across a theater design. If something fails, if something is outdated, you actually aren't down and out and in need of replacing an entire speaker because the amplifier fails. Especially if you end up with a $5,000+ speaker. In a better/higher end design, you may go with separate amps. Standard... Industry standard! amps. One fails, you replace one amp, and you can get it from any number of locations in a day, if not within hours. In ten years. In twenty years.

We don't have to agree on this, but I will make the argument that the plan you have requires extremely high confidence that the electronics available ten or twenty years from now will support the product you buy today.

Meanwhile, any client I have with a fifty year old speaker can be hooked up to any amp I have... or even one my grandchildren buy fifty years from now.

I can see where you are coming from, however I suspect the amps will become a short list. Hopefully there will also be agreements as to standardization of the layout of modules. Class D amps are going to be the back bone of active speakers going forward. Already there is a sorting out of just a few manufacturers that have a track record for consistent performance and above all reliability. Manufacturers like Hypex and Purifi, immediately come to mind. These units lend themselves to easy service by plug in replacement of modules. These needs to happen, as good and reliable class D amps require a large outlay in time and resources to make good ones.

Personally I think service will actually be an improvement over the longevity of receivers. Parts for receivers do not seem to last the statutory seven years, service is slow, and cost often prohibitive. From what I have heard from the trade here, receiver failure and service is now unacceptable. So I think active speakers really lend themselves to service by owner. Whereas taking the case off a receiver would be inclined to induce fright in the most experienced of service technicians.

So we have to look at total system reliability. My honest expectation is that a move to active speakers will actually increase total system reliability and longevity. From what I'm hearing that really needs to go on an upward trajectory, and fast.

When you think about Joe public has already voted for active speakers. I hardly go into a home now that does not have a sound bar. A sound bar is the very epitome of the active speaker. I know in general SQ is poor, but diction is usually good. Alexa Units are common also and replaced the AM/FM radio of days gone by, again an active speaker.

I think we need to join the coat tails of the sound bar movement, and go for simple easy set up. The receiver speaker set up is too complex for most. We need to rethink our practice and standards.

Back in the seventies and eighties practically every home had a sound system, usually referred to as "the stereo." Now, as far as I can tell every home has a sound bar or two. So I actually bet there are more homes now with active rather then passive speakers!

 

[PENG]

Do they think AV consumers in North America are silly enough who would fall for the Masimo/SU marketing BS?

Ummmmmmm....... yeeeah?

I didn't want to say it, but was thinking about that myself.

What else can explain why such a large price gaps between corresponding Marantz and Denon AVRs? In Europe and Asia, where the price gaps are minimal, the units don't have tuners in them, but that can't be the reason as it applies to both brands. I am still hoping @M Code will eventually chime in and tell us a story or two about such geopricing policies.

The minimal price gaps (between $1and $300) between the two outside of the Americas seem fair to me, as those do nothing gold plated connectors on the back (because you can't see them anyway) and HDAMs do cost money, but one has to be obsessed enough to pay $700 to $1,000 for such hypes. But then again, people do fall for the expensive power cords that sounded noticeably better to their ears/brains!

 

[Big-Q]

I am always excited to see the new stuff come out even when I am not in the market. I am happy with the gear I have.

 

[gene]

Definitive Technology’s New Bipolar Dymension Series Promises Ultimate Home Theater Performance

Definitive Technology’s new Dymension Series includes 4 bipolar towers, three center-channel speakers, a wedge-shaped on-wall, and an Atmos add-on. The towers offer built in subs for true LFE performance.

www.audioholics.com

 

[Eppie]

Definitive Technology’s New Bipolar Dymension Series Promises Ultimate Home Theater Performance

Definitive Technology’s new Dymension Series includes 4 bipolar towers, three center-channel speakers, a wedge-shaped on-wall, and an Atmos add-on. The towers offer built in subs for true LFE performance.

www.audioholics.com

Their flagship center is an interesting design. Is DT the only company to offer an integrated powered subwoofer in their center?

 

[TLS Guy]

Their flagship center is an interesting design. Is DT the only company to offer an integrated powered subwoofer in their center?

Run in the other direction. That design has zero chance of providing quality sound and speech across the listening area. That is a classic marketers design and not an engineers design.

 

[Trebdp83]

The 90's are back. Yikes, are they still doing the powered speaker thing? They at least removed the LFE port from them all it seems. Many confused the LFE port on their older Center Channel speakers especially because it was meant for connection to a Center Pre Out but was labeled LFE.

 

[gene]

 

[TLS Guy]

Solid engineering comes first and the passion will look after itself.

So now we have a speaker company going back to that tired old discredited (yes it is) of bi-polar speakers with drivers separated in distance. I have researched and played with that. It is not a valid concept.

So now we have this, and others designing cardioid speakers which apply the polar opposite philosophy.

I agree there is a an issue. The fact is that some instruments are omnidirectional radiators, and the classic example is the string section, others like the brass are highly directional. So what were my conclusions, and others have come to the same conclusion. The strings are far less harmed by a monopole speaker, than the brass is by being reproduced by a bi-polar speaker. I will also note that in my view a di-pole does more harm than a bi-pole, and I think this is due to the spatial separation of the drivers.

So in summary, that was a real marketing puff, absent any useful data and will not aid to an informed decision in any way. It just encourages off the cuff random purchases likely resulting in a high incidence of buyers remorse. Frankly it was prostitution, and not something to be proud of.

 

[Trebdp83]

It is the world’s oldest profession. Everything old is new, again.

 

[-Jim-]

I can't see your video @gene ? It says it's private? Weird.