New Denon 3805 sounds terrible - help!?!

[steveT]

I'm new to this forum, and hoping someone here can help. I've read through the posts on the 3805, and not finding anyone with a similar problem. I hooked up a new 3805 last weekend, and was shocked at the poor audio quality from the first moment I turned it on. I've got one specific problem, and one more general one, which I'll describe.

background: I'd had a Denon AVR-2500 for almost 10 years; I believe it was the last Pro-Logic receiver they released in the $1000 range before coming out with 5.1. I read all the rave reviews of the 3805, and since I'd liked my previous Denon so much, the 3805 seemed a no-brainer. I'm using B&W Matrix 803 front speakers, with matching B&W center and 2 small rear speakers. Velodyne 16" powered sub. Dish 721 PVR and Sony RDR-GX300 DVD-R.

the one specific problem: the sub is almost non-existent. In setup, I selected large fronts and LFE, and auto-EQ set the sub to -5.0dB. And no matter what source I use, the sub is just barely there. With the old Denon, if I set volume about halfway, it would shake the walls (I had my old Denon wired to the sub using the pre-out/main-in; I guess that kind of hookup doesn't exist anymore...). Now with the 3805 you can't even tell there's a sub in the system, even if I turn the sub volume up to 7 or 8 on the sub's volume control. I've tried cranking it up all the way to the max output on the Denon (~+12.0dB?), and still barely any bass. I had the sub's crossover set to max when I ran auto-EQ on the Denon. Any thoughts?

the overall problem: the sound quality is just a huge drop from what I was getting on the old Denon. I'd thought moving from 10-year old Pro-Logic to the latest DD/DTS would be a huge upgrade, but the output from the 3805 sounds brassy and tinny, with no depth to it at all. It's like the whole mid-range is non-existent. Music CDs which used to sound great now sound empty and lifeless. There's somewhat of a "listening inside a tin can" effect as well.

I've rerun setup with the Denon mic a few times, and tried playing around with the large/small speaker settings, the LFE setting, and adjusting individual speaker levels, and can improve things somewhat, but not much. Am I missing something, or is it possible I just got a dud receiver? The dealer tells me I must just be used to listening to PL for so long, that it's going to take me awhile to get used to digital sound...

any help is appreciated...

 

[annunaki]

Let us see if we cannot fix your problem. First check all your connections. Be sure all the positives go to positives and negatives to negatives. Check to make sure the subwoofer is connected to the subwoofer OUTPUT of the receiver. After verifying connections, check your dvd player's setup menu to verify that the Dolby Digital/DTS output is activated. Next, go into the receiver's set up menu. Set all of the speakers to small. make sure the subwwofer output is ON. Set your crossover frequency to 60hz to start. Observe any changes or results. Hopefully this may help you narrow down the problem. seeing as though your bass is anemic, this points to a possible subwoofer connection/bass management issue. Try the above and let us know what happens.

 

[steveT]

Thanks! The connections all seem to be OK (at least according to the Denon's check during setup...) I'll verify/adjust the setup as suggested tonight and post an update...

 

[annunaki]

I may not be able to reply until Monday. However, I am sure there are others who may be able to help on this forum as well. Have a great weekend.

 

[PENG]

In addition to annunaki's suggestion, try resetting the receiver to factory default setting first, then set bass XO to 80 hz. Try listening to it without using any auto setup/EQ features.

 

[annunaki]

What did you find out this weekend?

 

[mitch57]

I'm sure you already checked this but make sure the subwoofer is connected to the "Pre-Out" subwoofer connection and not the "Ext In" subwoofer connection.

 

[toquemon]

same problem

I had the same problem that you had. I upgraded from a 5 year old very robust 2Ch Onkyo receiver to a Multichannel Onkyo receiver like 3 or 4 years ago. I was very disappointed with the new results but then i realized what was happening:

1. I was using an out-of-control Harman Kardon equalizer that colored the sound a lot. Both channel bands were used in a form of "V", not importing what kind of music i was listening to, boosting low and high freqs to the max.
2. I was using a feature named "selective tone" wich was used as a kind of "loudness" button, that colored the low and the high frequencies more strongly.
3. I'm surprised that i haven't blown my amp because i abused it a lot.

In resume, a was accustomed to colored, unnatural sound. I took a while to re-educate my ears to estimate a flatter frequency response.

I listened to a lot of receivers before buying my actual Yamaha. One of them was the Denon 3805 and i would buy it, if it wasn't so expensive. I liked it's sound a lot.

 

[gene]

the one specific problem: the sub is almost non-existent.

In the bass management menu there is a THX setting and Main + Sub setting (not sure if its called this exactly). Set it to the latter so you get sub out despite your main speakers are set to large. Also realize the Denon is sophisticated enough that it allows independent level trim settings for each mode of operation. Thus if you configured the sub out to -5dB in 5.1 mode, you will also have to check 2CH mode setting. You can do this via the remote and "Channel Level" feature and keep pressing until you reach the sub level.

You may also wish to set all speakers to small and xover at 80Hz to see how that works. The Denon receive should have plenty of drive to handle your subwoofer.

 

[mitch57]

In the bass management menu there is a THX setting and Main + Sub setting (not sure if its called this exactly).

I don't believe there is a THX setting on the 3805 since it is not THX certified. However, the setting you are looking for is called "LFE + Main" and it's on the Subwoofer setup menu.

 

[gene]

I don't believe there is a THX setting on the 3805 since it is not THX certified. However, the setting you are looking for is called "LFE + Main" and it's on the Subwoofer setup menu.

Mitch your right thanks for correcting me and that is the setting.

 

[steveT]

I started this thread a few weeks ago, but haven't been back until today due to a family medical emergency. Thanks to everyone who responded; now that I've been able to try out all the suggested settings, here's an update:

- First I changed all speakers to "small", and that finally got the subwoofer in the picture. Still at low volume though.

- When I ran the EQ setup, it set the sub's level to -5.0dB. I've pushed it up to +2.5dB in all modes (I think the max is +5.0dB...) With these settings, the bass is pretty solid with Dolby Digital source material, but still really weak with the satellite feed and with CDs. You never can tell what quality audio you're getting on dish, but I'm very familiar with these CDs, and the bass definitely isn't there the way it was on my old Denon. And is it normal to have to crank the sub level out this high from the auto EQ result?

- I also tried setting the fronts to "large", and selecting LFE+Main, and was surprised not to hear any difference. Shouldn't that be sending the bass to both sub and main speakers, no matter what mode you're in?

Thanks for the help...

 

[Nick250]

- First I changed all speakers to "small", and that finally got the subwoofer in the picture. Still at low volume though.

- When I ran the EQ setup, it set the sub's level to -5.0dB. I've pushed it up to +2.5dB in all modes (I think the max is +5.0dB...) With these settings, the bass is pretty solid with Dolby Digital source material, but still really weak with the satellite feed and with CDs. You never can tell what quality audio you're getting on dish, but I'm very familiar with these CDs, and the bass definitely isn't there the way it was on my old Denon. And is it normal to have to crank the sub level out this high from the auto EQ result?

- I also tried setting the fronts to "large", and selecting LFE+Main, and was surprised not to hear any difference. Shouldn't that be sending the bass to both sub and main speakers, no matter what mode you're in?

Thanks for the help...

Where do you have the dial on the back of the sub set to?
12 O'Clock? 3 O'Clock? As high as it will go?

 

[rschleicher]

One other thing to try is to reverse the phase of the sub-woofer. I'm not familiar with your receiver, but there is probably a subwoofer phase setting in the menus someplace. You might be getting some cancellation of base between the mains (with them set to large) and the sub.

I think you already said that you have the bass management set to send bass to both the fronts and the sub, versus sending bass just to the fronts, and only LFE to the sub. But perhaps that is something to double-check as well. If you are only sending LFE to the sub, there may not be much to hear unless you are watching the right kind of movie. There won't be any LFE content with music.

Since your auto set-up selected -5 dB level for the sub, that implies that the auto set-up "heard" something. Have you tried manual test tones?

 

[Peppy]

How your sub level ? can you hear any good level low now ?
Does any one suggest to have a good look at the sub itself ?

It might be only a problem with the femel RCA connection on
the sub ? or a LFE switch on the sub ? or any little problem
coming from the sub itself. After all the help with different
setting that every one give so far, if your problem is still
not resolve, I would try to hook a different sub just to see
if it make a difference.

If I had the same problem I would question my sub before my 3805.

 

[annunaki]

A couple of good points there. Where is your volume set on the sub itself? Is there an LFE switch on the woofer? Is the receiver set to LFE only? I would assume the volume or gain on the subwoofer itself is relatively low. Is the the crossover on the sub set really low as well? If you will be using the cross-overs in the receiver, then I would suggest setting the sub's crossover at its highest frequency setting. check those things out and let us know how it goes.

 

[Zarg]

Follow-up Question on Sub Settings

A couple of good points there. Where is your volume set on the sub itself? Is there an LFE switch on the woofer? Is the receiver set to LFE only? I would assume the volume or gain on the subwoofer itself is relatively low. Is the the crossover on the sub set really low as well? If you will be using the cross-overs in the receiver, then I would suggest setting the sub's crossover at its highest frequency setting. check those things out and let us know how it goes.

Following-up on your suggestions, I'm wondering if my Denon 3805 is set up incorrectly?

I've got my speakers set as follows: Axiom M60 Fronts - LARGE, Axiom VP 150 Center - Small, Axiom QS8 Surrounds - Small, Subwoofer - LFE + MAIN, receiver crossover at 60 Hz

On my SV subwoofer, I have enabled the cross-over and set it to 60 Hz as well. Are you suggesting that the sub would sound better if I (a) defeated the sub's cross-over, or (b) set the cross-over as high as possible (120 Hz I think)? I'm open to suggestions, here.

Thanks.

Zarg

 

[WoodieB]

On my SV subwoofer, I have enabled the cross-over and set it to 60 Hz as well. Are you suggesting that the sub would sound better if I (a) defeated the sub's cross-over, or (b) set the cross-over as high as possible (120 Hz I think)? I'm open to suggestions, here.

Thanks.

Zarg

.
That may be the problem right there. You don't want the receiver and sub fighting over who's doing the bass management. Try setting the sub's crossover as high as possible or defeating it, and turning the volume control on the sub up. You want to let the reciever do the bass management and level control on the sub. Also try setting all speakers to small. See if that helps

 

[PENG]

At the receiver, try setting sub to LFE only, crossover should be at 80 hz or higher if the speakers are set to small. The filter at the sub should be disabled, the receiver is already doing bass management.

 

[Nick250]

Following-up on your suggestions, I'm wondering if my Denon 3805 is set up incorrectly?

I've got my speakers set as follows: Axiom M60 Fronts - LARGE, Axiom VP 150 Center - Small, Axiom QS8 Surrounds - Small, Subwoofer - LFE + MAIN, receiver crossover at 60 Hz

On my SV subwoofer, I have enabled the cross-over and set it to 60 Hz as well. Are you suggesting that the sub would sound better if I (a) defeated the sub's cross-over, or (b) set the cross-over as high as possible (120 Hz I think)? I'm open to suggestions, here.

Thanks.

Zarg

Defeat the cross over on the sub if you can (you can on my HSU) or set it as high as it will go if cannot defeat it. For starters I would also set ALL speakers to small (you can play with this setting later on if want). I would first start the crossover on the receiver around 80 and see how that works. I would configure the receiver to send to the sub everything it can, LFE, main you get the idea. And, as another poster suggests make sure the volume on the sub is set at least 50%, higher if necessary. It may not be. On my HSU VTF 2 (in a small room) I have the dial at just 1.5 out of 10. You may need to experiment on this.

The other thing to remember is that a properly set up sub is not obvious when playing music. It is very subtle. It does not call attention to itself. The music will just seem to have a firmer foundation, fuller it you will. One last thing. By having the sub doing all of low frequency work, the main speakers (set to small) will have less work to do and may actually sound BETTER in the mid and upper ranges. Well that's how I see it. IMHO, YMMV yadda, yadda.