New Apartment, Need Advice for New AV Setup

[Protostar1]

I tried this in the newb section but it quickly disappeared before any responses, so here it is again:

Hello all,

I will be moving into a new apartment and would like to update my home theater setup and would like advice on where to best put my money.

My current setup:

Yamaha RX V559 (possibly with a damaged sub-out and seems to have an issue sustaining high volumes [if anyone can diagnosis this it would be appreciated]), Canton AS 10 subwoofer (might be toast if the receiver isn't), 4 of 5 Canton MXII single woofer speakers (one speaker wire prong broke and was fried when soldered wrong). Ya the current setup is a little rough... hence the desire to upgrade!

The new room:

I have yet to lease an apartment but the living room should be 12'x12' with the room bleeding into a dining room and the overall size is 12'x20' and even larger including the kitchen. So there are only three walls surrounding the "TV room" with the right "wall" being the open living room/ kitchen.

This is the setup I am thinking:

(I am really hoping diagnose my receiver or my subwoofer... however, I have been assuming neither may survive or if one does, it might be relocated to my bedroom.)

As such

Receiver-
Denon AVR-3311ci (809$ lowest price online/ eBay new)

Loudspeakers-
(2) EMP E55ti fronts ($795/ pair, audiohlics store)
(1) EMP E5ci center ($220, audioholics store)
(4) Canton MXII reused speakers for rear surrounds and rears

Subwoofer(s)-
(2) Emotiva Ultra 10 (12?)
-or-
(1) HSU VTF 3 mk3

TV-
Mitsubishi DLP 65"

Use:

40% TV/ Movies
40% Music
20% Games

Questions:

-Ideas on the broken sub/ receiver?
-Any loudspeaker recommendations over the EMPs at that price range? They seem hard to beat...
-I would like to do a 7.2 setup but will patiently wait if my ~800$ is better spent on a single VTF 3 (or 2?) vs two Emotivas right off the bat.
-Do I have my dollar amounts appropriated in a way that allows for good expansion in the future? Or should I go bigger on a certain part of the above and use cheaper stuff on something else for the time being? Maybe huge towers and reuse a Canton center or something to that effect?
-Any recommendations and advice are appreciated!

 

[hewhoisbill]

Hi Protostar1,

I have a very similar space as to the one you are moving into (three walls surrounding a largish listening space opening into a larger area) and have experienced first hand the issues with trying to fill that area with sound.

Receiver/Speaker Problems

Regarding the issues you are encountering with your current set-up, I would investigate the speakers as being the possible source of the problem. The reason I say this is the scraps of information I picked up in reading some reviews associated of that product (ie. http://hometheaterreview.com/canton-movie-10-mx-ii-home-cinema-system-reviewed/) indicating that there is some kind of protection built into the speakers which try and prevent you from over driving them. It also looks as though the speakers are a combination of being relatively insensitive, requiring lots of power to hit the high volumes and varying impedance (I could only find the specifications of 4 to 8 ohms). The combination of all of the above could be giving your receiver fits.

If you had some other speakers around or that you could borrow that you know are a bit easier to drive (ie higher sensitivity and/or 8ohm impedance), I would recommend swapping them in and seeing if the receiver has the same issue as you approach high volumes.

Unfortunately I can't help out with your subwoofer woes; again if you could find another one that you know is functioning normally that would at least allow you to localize the issue to either the sub or the receiver.

New Speakers

My thoughts would be to buy new speakers first, hook them up to the current receiver and see if the issue with the receiver is on going, and then move onto looking at a new receiver if necessary.

The EMP TEK speakers you have listed are an incredible value; I have no first hand experience, but I have read very little to suggest that you would be dissatisfied with them. I have speakers from the same parent company and have never looked back. Alternatives you could look at would be the Elemental Designs and SVS speaker packages as the discounts appear to be pretty good when bought as a package, and they would include one of their renowned subs.

Other thoughts for the room you are working with would be Axioms M22 bookshelves paired with one of their VP150 centers; the money you would save could go into either surrounds to finish replacing the Cantons or more subwoofer(s). Those bookshelves are amazing units when paired with a good subwoofer.

The issue I have encountered in a similar space to yours is not in filling the room with the mid to high frequencies; the problem with having an opening into a larger area is in getting balanced bass throughout the spectrum without massive humps and dips. Having two good subwoofers and some means of eqing them (like a Behringer Feedback Destroyer, Elemental Designs eQ.2, or similar) would provide for a better listening experience overall. Your choices in subs seem sound; other options to consider would be Epiks' Legend or SVSs' PB10-NSD.

Thoughts on Expansion

The speakers and electronics you have listed would make future expansion hard; your selections (as well as any of the others I discussed above) would create a well balanced system where an upgrade may be hard to do as any noticeable upgrade would start to cost serious $$$. If frequent future upgrades is the route you are set on, my recommendation would be to over kill a component and then work from there.

Two examples of this would be:

1. Go light on the towers, center, and surround, and get two of the eD subs (or Epik, SVS, Seaton, Hsu, etc) as that would provide a big improvement for the movie experience. You could then buy mains, center etc as budget allowed and would have less budget spent on the items you would be replacing.
   
2. Go heavy on the front 3 speakers (to noticeably best the EMP TEK E55ti you would probably be looking at a considerable expenditure, potentially double), and get one of the subwoofers from the suppliers mentioned previous. You could pick up a second sub and surrounds in the future as budget allowed.

My personal thoughts on this would be to go with EMP TEK E55ti's and a single sub.... going from a small satellite system to floorstanders is a huge jump (I went from one of Polks satellite systems to the RBH TK-5CT clones from Destination Audio and was blown away by the difference). Getting the second sub in the future along with some form of eq would give you something to save towards and the end product would be better overall then grabbing two smaller subs immediately. Picking up one of the bigger subwoofers would also be a huge jump immediately; the second would be icing on the cake.

Have fun!

Cheers,

Bill

 

[SJTrance]

I had a very similar situation with moving into an apartment with equipment. You can click the link on my sig to see how I've set things up. I think that you're on the right track with regards to what you're choosing. Since you're leasing this space, I'm assuming that you'll have neighbors as well and you'll want to keep the sound in check. Don't ask me how, but I had the balls to get a VTF3.3 living in a apartment studio but I have yet to hear complaints of noise from neighbors. However, across the hallway, my neighbor uses much smaller speakers and subs but gets complaints all the time. The main difference is that I'm using the Auralux Gramma under my sub.

I've been eyeing the Emp speakers myself and if nothing, they're absolutely gorgeous. If I was unhappy with the sound of my old paradigms, I would upgrade in a heartbeat.

I think that the decision between the big VTF 3.3 vs. the two sealed Emotiva subs come down to your preference. The VTF 3.3 will dig much deeper than the Emotivas but the Emos will probably sound tighter and you may have a more even dispersion of the bass since you are placing them to eliminate lulls in the room. I put my VTF right next to the couch and I have no problem with hearing or feeling it anywhere in my viewing area.

The best way anyone can help you is for you to find the place and take some pics of the room that you are going to put things into.

 

[Protostar1]

Hi Protostar1,

I have a very similar space as to the one you are moving into (three walls surrounding a largish listening space opening into a larger area) and have experienced first hand the issues with trying to fill that area with sound.

Receiver/Speaker Problems

Regarding the issues you are encountering with your current set-up, I would investigate the speakers as being the possible source of the problem. The reason I say this is the scraps of information I picked up in reading some reviews associated of that product (ie. http://hometheaterreview.com/canton-movie-10-mx-ii-home-cinema-system-reviewed/) indicating that there is some kind of protection built into the speakers which try and prevent you from over driving them. It also looks as though the speakers are a combination of being relatively insensitive, requiring lots of power to hit the high volumes and varying impedance (I could only find the specifications of 4 to 8 ohms). The combination of all of the above could be giving your receiver fits.

If you had some other speakers around or that you could borrow that you know are a bit easier to drive (ie higher sensitivity and/or 8ohm impedance), I would recommend swapping them in and seeing if the receiver has the same issue as you approach high volumes.

Unfortunately I can't help out with your subwoofer woes; again if you could find another one that you know is functioning normally that would at least allow you to localize the issue to either the sub or the receiver.

New Speakers

My thoughts would be to buy new speakers first, hook them up to the current receiver and see if the issue with the receiver is on going, and then move onto looking at a new receiver if necessary.

The EMP TEK speakers you have listed are an incredible value; I have no first hand experience, but I have read very little to suggest that you would be dissatisfied with them. I have speakers from the same parent company and have never looked back. Alternatives you could look at would be the Elemental Designs and SVS speaker packages as the discounts appear to be pretty good when bought as a package, and they would include one of their renowned subs.

Other thoughts for the room you are working with would be Axioms M22 bookshelves paired with one of their VP150 centers; the money you would save could go into either surrounds to finish replacing the Cantons or more subwoofer(s). Those bookshelves are amazing units when paired with a good subwoofer.

The issue I have encountered in a similar space to yours is not in filling the room with the mid to high frequencies; the problem with having an opening into a larger area is in getting balanced bass throughout the spectrum without massive humps and dips. Having two good subwoofers and some means of eqing them (like a Behringer Feedback Destroyer, Elemental Designs eQ.2, or similar) would provide for a better listening experience overall. Your choices in subs seem sound; other options to consider would be Epiks' Legend or SVSs' PB10-NSD.

Thoughts on Expansion

The speakers and electronics you have listed would make future expansion hard; your selections (as well as any of the others I discussed above) would create a well balanced system where an upgrade may be hard to do as any noticeable upgrade would start to cost serious $$$. If frequent future upgrades is the route you are set on, my recommendation would be to over kill a component and then work from there.

Two examples of this would be:

1. Go light on the towers, center, and surround, and get two of the eD subs (or Epik, SVS, Seaton, Hsu, etc) as that would provide a big improvement for the movie experience. You could then buy mains, center etc as budget allowed and would have less budget spent on the items you would be replacing.
   
2. Go heavy on the front 3 speakers (to noticeably best the EMP TEK E55ti you would probably be looking at a considerable expenditure, potentially double), and get one of the subwoofers from the suppliers mentioned previous. You could pick up a second sub and surrounds in the future as budget allowed.

My personal thoughts on this would be to go with EMP TEK E55ti's and a single sub.... going from a small satellite system to floorstanders is a huge jump (I went from one of Polks satellite systems to the RBH TK-5CT clones from Destination Audio and was blown away by the difference). Getting the second sub in the future along with some form of eq would give you something to save towards and the end product would be better overall then grabbing two smaller subs immediately. Picking up one of the bigger subwoofers would also be a huge jump immediately; the second would be icing on the cake.

Have fun!

Cheers,

Bill

I appreciate the response. I do remember something along the lines of built in protection on the speakers. While Canton is by no means a crap brand from what I gather, I do not think the MXII was a real high end set up. Given that, their age (pushing over a decade), and the abuse they have seen in my current apartment, I can see where improper resistance is causing an output issue. Though to be fair, I did not notice this issue ever before this past month or so nor before the sub/ or sub out gave and the receiver has been great for the 5 or so years of ownership. Regardless, I think I will need to transplant the receiver to a healthy speaker set before calling it damaged. Do you think dropping down to two speakers and cranking them might give me some indication of if the receiver has issues or if its the speakers? I figure that would put less power load on the receiver.

If the speakers might be of issue, the AS10 sub may also be shot as opposed to the sub out...

Assuming now that my receiver isn't toast, will it satisfy my new theoretical setup with only one sub out and 105Wx5 per channel?

I really am liking the EMPs and there are almost no negatives to them. I have no wife telling me bookshelves only, so I really want the benefit of a big tower (while I still can!). A friend bought an Axiom center, and while it did sound pretty good, I have trouble stomaching the prices with such great reviews for the EMP sets. I thought the EMPs were supposed to have balanced mids and highs, hopefully alleviating that issue you noted in this room size.

Doesn't the Denon receiver I noted above have an onboard EQ feature (Audyssey or something)? Is that insufficient?

I think the E55ti and E5ci just make sense because they'll offer 75% of the performance of more expensive speakers at 50% of the cost, good bang for the buck.

So I am still unsure of what sub to pursue, though I suspect one sub is ideal for now and to spend more money later on another. I am not surprised the VTF is a thumper and the Emotivas are tighter. In a room that small, would an Emotiva 12 still get loud enough to rattle the furniture? Would that SVS bridge the gap between loud and tight? Would the VTF actually just be loud or a clean and tight sub too? I am leaning toward the VTFs but if they are overkill for a 12x12 room, let me know your thoughts.

 

[Protostar1]

I had a very similar situation with moving into an apartment with equipment. You can click the link on my sig to see how I've set things up. I think that you're on the right track with regards to what you're choosing. Since you're leasing this space, I'm assuming that you'll have neighbors as well and you'll want to keep the sound in check. Don't ask me how, but I had the balls to get a VTF3.3 living in a apartment studio but I have yet to hear complaints of noise from neighbors. However, across the hallway, my neighbor uses much smaller speakers and subs but gets complaints all the time. The main difference is that I'm using the Auralux Gramma under my sub.

I've been eyeing the Emp speakers myself and if nothing, they're absolutely gorgeous. If I was unhappy with the sound of my old paradigms, I would upgrade in a heartbeat.

I think that the decision between the big VTF 3.3 vs. the two sealed Emotiva subs come down to your preference. The VTF 3.3 will dig much deeper than the Emotivas but the Emos will probably sound tighter and you may have a more even dispersion of the bass since you are placing them to eliminate lulls in the room. I put my VTF right next to the couch and I have no problem with hearing or feeling it anywhere in my viewing area.

The best way anyone can help you is for you to find the place and take some pics of the room that you are going to put things into.

Thanks for your response as well. My sub questions above pertain to your post too.

 

[hewhoisbill]

I appreciate the response. I do remember something along the lines of built in protection on the speakers. While Canton is by no means a crap brand from what I gather, I do not think the MXII was a real high end set up. Given that, their age (pushing over a decade), and the abuse they have seen in my current apartment, I can see where improper resistance is causing an output issue. Though to be fair, I did not notice this issue ever before this past month or so nor before the sub/ or sub out gave and the receiver has been great for the 5 or so years of ownership. Regardless, I think I will need to transplant the receiver to a healthy speaker set before calling it damaged. Do you think dropping down to two speakers and cranking them might give me some indication of if the receiver has issues or if its the speakers? I figure that would put less power load on the receiver.

If the speakers might be of issue, the AS10 sub may also be shot as opposed to the sub out...

Assuming now that my receiver isn't toast, will it satisfy my new theoretical setup with only one sub out and 105Wx5 per channel?

I really am liking the EMPs and there are almost no negatives to them. I have no wife telling me bookshelves only, so I really want the benefit of a big tower (while I still can!). A friend bought an Axiom center, and while it did sound pretty good, I have trouble stomaching the prices with such great reviews for the EMP sets. I thought the EMPs were supposed to have balanced mids and highs, hopefully alleviating that issue you noted in this room size.

Doesn't the Denon receiver I noted above have an onboard EQ feature (Audyssey or something)? Is that insufficient?

I think the E55ti and E5ci just make sense because they'll offer 75% of the performance of more expensive speakers at 50% of the cost, good bang for the buck.

So I am still unsure of what sub to pursue, though I suspect one sub is ideal for now and to spend more money later on another. I am not surprised the VTF is a thumper and the Emotivas are tighter. In a room that small, would an Emotiva 12 still get loud enough to rattle the furniture? Would that SVS bridge the gap between loud and tight? Would the VTF actually just be loud or a clean and tight sub too? I am leaning toward the VTFs but if they are overkill for a 12x12 room, let me know your thoughts.

Typically receivers have one shared power supply amongst the different channels, so dropping down to fewer channels should allow the receiver to put more power into those two channels. Give it a shot and see if something different happens than what occurred before.

The new set up should be plenty happy with the receiver you currently have if it turns out to be issue-free; a purchase of a y-splitter for your sub out will turn that one channel into two, and if you aren't listening at ear bleeding levels, then that 105 watts should fill that room handily. The EMP TEK's are also more sensitive than your current satellites, meaning that they will require less power to reach the same volume levels your satellites currently hit. If your current set up reaches the volumes that you desire, then that should answer the question of 'is it enough'. In either case, there shouldn't be much harm in waiting for the new speakers to arrive and giving them a test drive before investing in a new receiver.

For the EQ, the functionality included in the receiver is only one piece of the puzzle. It allows you to set up how far you are sitting from the speakers to make sure that the audio is in sync across the channels, as well as perform rough level matching to make sure all the speakers are at the same level. All very important stuff.

What I am referring to is the EQ specifically for the subs. In almost every room (all except heavily treated/anechoic), the low frequency sound waves interact with the room, gaining and losing strength across the different frequencies due no fault to the quality of the sub itself. Its simply a result of physics and how low frequency sound interacts with a room. The result is that you will be watching a movie and some explosions will be incredibly powerful and others might whimper. There are two ways to combat this: moving items in the room around, including the subs, or to use a form of equalizer. An equalizer (like the Behringer Feedback Destroyer) will allow you to either trim or boost the subwoofer signal to make the response more uniform. One of the big reasons to get two subs is that it makes this task much easier, as there will almost always be a dip or two in the frequency range no matter where you place one sub, and having the eq boost that frequency is not the preferred method as it results in less headroom and greater distortion. Having two subs and experimenting with the positioning can get you a really good response in the room with minimal dips, and then the EQ will take it the rest of the way. Some light reading on this topic includes:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/listening-room-acoustics-1

http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/building-great-bass-response-in-your-home-theater

Having said all that re: EQ of the subwoofers, it all comes down to what you think is necessary. I bought an EQ quite a while after I had my subs set up, and noticed a decent difference immediately. If you are happy with the bass response as is, then you may not need one. After you have picked up your subs, I would look at taking REW (Room Equalization Wizard at Home Theater Shack) for a spin and see how your room is interacting and make the call.

And for the subs you are thinking of... Gene posted some quick measurements of the Emotiva 12 and the results are outstanding. Its an incredible performer, and my understanding is that two subs can result in around 6db of gain... which would place it close to 100db at 20hz before room gain. And there would be tons in a 12 by 12 room.

Would the two HSU's outperform the Emotivas by going louder and deeper? Yes. Undoubtedly. The question then becomes, how much do you want to exceed 100 decibels at 20hz by? Its a question we all must answer and potentially leads us down a dark and ugly path

Overall I really can appreciate where you are coming from with the EMP TEK speakers; they are incredible performers at the price point, and look gorgeous to boot. Sounds like you have your heart set on them, and I can't find a reason to suggest otherwise.

Cheers,

Bill

 

[Protostar1]

Typically receivers have one shared power supply amongst the different channels, so dropping down to fewer channels should allow the receiver to put more power into those two channels. Give it a shot and see if something different happens than what occurred before.

The new set up should be plenty happy with the receiver you currently have if it turns out to be issue-free; a purchase of a y-splitter for your sub out will turn that one channel into two, and if you aren't listening at ear bleeding levels, then that 105 watts should fill that room handily. The EMP TEK's are also more sensitive than your current satellites, meaning that they will require less power to reach the same volume levels your satellites currently hit. If your current set up reaches the volumes that you desire, then that should answer the question of 'is it enough'. In either case, there shouldn't be much harm in waiting for the new speakers to arrive and giving them a test drive before investing in a new receiver.

For the EQ, the functionality included in the receiver is only one piece of the puzzle. It allows you to set up how far you are sitting from the speakers to make sure that the audio is in sync across the channels, as well as perform rough level matching to make sure all the speakers are at the same level. All very important stuff.

What I am referring to is the EQ specifically for the subs. In almost every room (all except heavily treated/anechoic), the low frequency sound waves interact with the room, gaining and losing strength across the different frequencies due no fault to the quality of the sub itself. Its simply a result of physics and how low frequency sound interacts with a room. The result is that you will be watching a movie and some explosions will be incredibly powerful and others might whimper. There are two ways to combat this: moving items in the room around, including the subs, or to use a form of equalizer. An equalizer (like the Behringer Feedback Destroyer) will allow you to either trim or boost the subwoofer signal to make the response more uniform. One of the big reasons to get two subs is that it makes this task much easier, as there will almost always be a dip or two in the frequency range no matter where you place one sub, and having the eq boost that frequency is not the preferred method as it results in less headroom and greater distortion. Having two subs and experimenting with the positioning can get you a really good response in the room with minimal dips, and then the EQ will take it the rest of the way. Some light reading on this topic includes:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/listening-room-acoustics-1

http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/building-great-bass-response-in-your-home-theater

Having said all that re: EQ of the subwoofers, it all comes down to what you think is necessary. I bought an EQ quite a while after I had my subs set up, and noticed a decent difference immediately. If you are happy with the bass response as is, then you may not need one. After you have picked up your subs, I would look at taking REW (Room Equalization Wizard at Home Theater Shack) for a spin and see how your room is interacting and make the call.

And for the subs you are thinking of... Gene posted some quick measurements of the Emotiva 12 and the results are outstanding. Its an incredible performer, and my understanding is that two subs can result in around 6db of gain... which would place it close to 100db at 20hz before room gain. And there would be tons in a 12 by 12 room.

Would the two HSU's outperform the Emotivas by going louder and deeper? Yes. Undoubtedly. The question then becomes, how much do you want to exceed 100 decibels at 20hz by? Its a question we all must answer and potentially leads us down a dark and ugly path

Overall I really can appreciate where you are coming from with the EMP TEK speakers; they are incredible performers at the price point, and look gorgeous to boot. Sounds like you have your heart set on them, and I can't find a reason to suggest otherwise.

Cheers,

Bill

Thanks a lot for the advice. I will get to testing my receiver first and foremost then dispense with the cash for new stuff. I hope those speakers aren't going...

SJTrance, what TV cabinet is that? I saw you reference it in your link but did not see a link for the actual item.

 

[SJTrance]

Thanks a lot for the advice. I will get to testing my receiver first and foremost then dispense with the cash for new stuff. I hope those speakers aren't going...

SJTrance, what TV cabinet is that? I saw you reference it in your link but did not see a link for the actual item.

The TV stand is actually an inexpensive item from Ikea. It's the TOBO. I modified it in that the feet are removed and the cabinet is placed directly on the ground. The great thing about it is that all my components will work through the frosted glass.

 

[Protostar1]

The TV stand is actually an inexpensive item from Ikea. It's the TOBO. I modified it in that the feet are removed and the cabinet is placed directly on the ground. The great thing about it is that all my components will work through the frosted glass.

That is quite a snazzy item on the cheap. It says it can hold 143lbs, would you agree that seems feasible? I believe the 65" DLP I plan to buy from a family member will weight around 100-120lbs. Though its wider than the 65" I suppose it may be too small for a TV that large, even if it can hold it. I would also have no place for my center channel speaker with that behemoth sitting on top...