New Amp for pre-outs..

[serenity737]

Well guys,

I have a fine receiver (Denon 3808CI) with relatively inefficient speakers which need alot of power (RBHs). Ok for movies but clearly lacking in openenss and sufficient dynamic range when I play classical music on my system. In the future I will be looking to add significant additional power
(in the 300 to 500 w range) with an external amp to improve the dynamic punch when I listen to classical.

Mike

 

[PENG]

Well guys,

I have a fine receiver (Denon 3808CI) with relatively inefficient speakers which need alot of power (RBHs). Ok for movies but clearly lacking in openenss and sufficient dynamic range when I play classical music on my system. In the future I will be looking to add significant additional power
(in the 300 to 500 w range) with an external amp to improve the dynamic punch when I listen to classical.

Mike

Would you tell us the nominal impedance and sensitivity of the RBH, your room dimensions and how loud (SPL in dB from your sitting position) you listen? I have the 4308 and have done many comparison listening with and without the help of external amps up to 300W 8 ohms, 500W 4 ohms. I also listen mostly to classical music, both CDs, HDCDs, SACDs and DVDAs.

 

[Codifus]

I think the issue with amps and pre-amps is simply that the source is brought closer to the last stage of amplification. Less circuitry to travel through and be affected by.

For example, I have beresford TC7520 DAC and Yamaha AX-596 integrated amplifier. The 596 has the ability to be separated intoa pre-amp and amp.

I tried it.

My 7520 was connected straight to my 596 "amp" and the audible difference was huge. Micro detail was so much more resolvable. It was as if my midrange and tweeters had woken from a long sleep.


All this and there was no change in power. That increase in detail, however, made me much more hungry for power, so I bought a Behringer

CD

 

[serenity737]

Would you tell us the nominal impedance and sensitivity of the RBH, your room dimensions and how loud (SPL in dB from your sitting position) you listen? I have the 4308 and have done many comparison listening with and without the help of external amps up to 300W 8 ohms, 500W 4 ohms. I also listen mostly to classical music, both CDs, HDCDs, SACDs and DVDAs.

Peng,

Glad to ...

I have the RBH TK-5CT as my mains. Sensitivity is approximately 87dB, manufacturer lists them as 8ohms - Audioholics review as 6ohms. My room size is roughly 12 by 22 feet - I have my mains and TV positioned along the long axis of the room. I usually listen at about -30 to -25dB depending on the nature of source material.

Mike

 

[PENG]

Peng,

Glad to ...

I have the RBH TK-5CT as my mains. Sensitivity is approximately 87dB, manufacturer lists them as 8ohms - Audioholics review as 6ohms. My room size is roughly 12 by 22 feet - I have my mains and TV positioned along the long axis of the room. I usually listen at about -30 to -25dB depending on the nature of source material.

Mike

Thank you for the helpful information. Since your room size and speaker sensitivity are similar to mine and your listening level is even lower, I doubt adding external amp to your 3808 will get you audible difference. As I said I had tried with and without external amp for stereo listening and found that my 4308 or 3805 before that are just as good for what I need. Since I detected no audible difference, I took voltage and amperage measurements to see how they compared. The results were as expected, the two Denon had no trouble matching the much more powerful external amps in my media room at >90 dB SPL with peaks (example: bass drums from some of my ref CDs) in excess of 100 dB. I do like my amps, it feels good to have more power than I need, but I cannot tell you in good faith and without qualifications, that it will always make those so called huge difference that other people often claim. It really depends on many factors.

 

[adwilk]

When it really boils right down to it, whether or not you should add amplifiers or not (assuming that an AVR is sufficient) kind of depends on your view of the hobby. I have an audio snob buddy that swears his new cables sound better than the last- we all have those buddies. He enjoys the placebo part of the hobby as much as the music and the gear. Thats a big part of it for him and I think a little part in all of us- well- except for Chris.

While the question is not subjective, its answers can be. Does it "sound" better to you? Go for it. Does it actually sound any different? Signs point to absolutely not.

 

[adwilk]

Your Carver is not a regular Amp )) what model , i have tfm35 , its sound is much different than my bryston 4b .

I guess its a decent gadget, I can't hear a difference between it and my NADs. (Doug will laugh at that) I think its a Carver Premiere THX somethingorother. If it sounds different than your Bryston, and the Carver is working properly- Your Bryston is broken. Both amplifiers are transparent and sound the same to virtually every human ear..

 

[serenity737]

Thank you for the helpful information. Since your room size and speaker sensitivity are similar to mine and your listening level is even lower, I doubt adding external amp to your 3808 will get you audible difference. As I said I had tried with and without external amp for stereo listening and found that my 4308 or 3805 before that are just as good for what I need. Since I detected no audible difference, I took voltage and amperage measurements to see how they compared. The results were as expected, the two Denon had no trouble matching the much more powerful external amps in my media room at >90 dB SPL with peaks (example: bass drums from some of my ref CDs) in excess of 100 dB. I do like my amps, it feels good to have more power than I need, but I cannot tell you in good faith and without qualifications, that it will always make those so called huge difference that other people often claim. It really depends on many factors.

Peng,

Thanks for offering your point of view. I know essentially doubling or tripling my power will make an audiable difference (3 to 6dB) and can provide more headroom for dynamic response by my relatively inefficient speakers. For the high quality recordings I have of classical content without all the issues of compression which are so rampant I want to have a system where soft passage are soft and a sudden dynamic shift is loud and has punch.

Best,

Mike

 

[wire]

I guess its a decent gadget, I can't hear a difference between it and my NADs. (Doug will laugh at that) I think its a Carver Premiere THX somethingorother. If it sounds different than your Bryston, and the Carver is working properly- Your Bryston is broken. Both amplifiers are transparent and sound the same to virtually every human ear..

My Bryston is fine ( had it scoped just before the warrenty expired ) , my Carver has a little chip built into it , to mimic a more tube sound ( i think it was the silver 7's ) . There is difference in sound , your THX Amp , Bob took out the chip )) .

 

[adwilk]

There is difference in sound , .

I'll bet you my Carver for your Bryston that you can't pick it out....

 

[PENG]

Peng,

Glad to ...

I have the RBH TK-5CT as my mains. Sensitivity is approximately 87dB, manufacturer lists them as 8ohms - Audioholics review as 6ohms. My room size is roughly 12 by 22 feet - I have my mains and TV positioned along the long axis of the room. I usually listen at about -30 to -25dB depending on the nature of source material.

Mike

At -25dB volume on your 3808 you probably are listening at SPL of around 70dB and the 3808 would be putting out around 2W or 1W per channel. The 3808 has been bench tested to produce:

186.7W at 0.1% THD into 8 ohms and
238.9W at 0.1% THD into 4 ohms.

So you have >20dB of dynamic range on hand already. Nothing in my collection of reference CD/SACD/HDCD/DVDA has that kind dynamic range. I had played the Fanfare for the Common Man (Telarc CD-80078) Atlanta Symphony Orchestra, with my 3805 cranked up to 0 on the volume control and heard no sign of clipping.

When I first added an external amp, I thought I was happy with the better bass, more details, depth etc. etc.. After a while, when the initial excitement subsided, I decided to do more objective comparison listening, with participation by other people in the sessions. I eventually realized that there wasn't really audible improvements. The 3805 was able to put out >10A during those instantaneous peaks without clipping, not audible anyway.

I am not trying to discourage you from acquiring a 500WPC amp. In fact, I think you should go for it, but you may not hear "huge" improvements in sound quality or dynamics because based on data you provided your future 500WPC amp would most likely be cruising at a few watts with some occassional momentary peaks of up to 100 to 150W at the most. The 500W amp will give you the flexibility of upgrading to most any speakers, bigger room, and/or listening at much higher distortion free SPL.

 

[PENG]

I'll bet you my Carver for your Bryston that you can't pick it out....

Don't do that, he said his Carver has a chip in it that allows it to sound like a tube amp. None of the Bryston amps offer tube sound except for tube amps that are designed to be transparent.

 

[Kitsum]

You guys trying to imply that MOS-FET sound is a myth?

 

[wire]

I'll bet you my Carver for your Bryston that you can't pick it out....

hehe
Ill bet you my TFM 35 sounds different than your THX Carver . Seriously , i have heard the Sunfire Amp , i like it alot , very smooth sounding amp . Maybe closer to your THX Carver

 

[serenity737]

At -25dB volume on your 3808 you probably are listening at SPL of around 70dB and the 3808 would be putting out around 2W or 1W per channel. The 3808 has been bench tested to produce:

186.7W at 0.1% THD into 8 ohms and
238.9W at 0.1% THD into 4 ohms.

So you have >20dB of dynamic range on hand already. Nothing in my collection of reference CD/SACD/HDCD/DVDA has that kind dynamic range. I had played the Fanfare for the Common Man (Telarc CD-80078) Atlanta Symphony Orchestra, with my 3805 cranked up to 0 on the volume control and heard no sign of clipping.

When I first added an external amp, I thought I was happy with the better bass, more details, depth etc. etc.. After a while, when the initial excitement subsided, I decided to do more objective comparison listening, with participation by other people in the sessions. I eventually realized that there wasn't really audible improvements. The 3805 was able to put out >10A during those instantaneous peaks without clipping, not audible anyway.

I am not trying to discourage you from acquiring a 500WPC amp. In fact, I think you should go for it, but you may not hear "huge" improvements in sound quality or dynamics because based on data you provided your future 500WPC amp would most likely be cruising at a few watts with some occassional momentary peaks of up to 100 to 150W at the most. The 500W amp will give you the flexibility of upgrading to most any speakers, bigger room, and/or listening at much higher distortion free SPL.

Agreed ... thanks so much Peng!

Mike

 

[adwilk]

I found a pair of NAD monitor series 2100 amps locally (cheap) and threw them in the system just for fun. They are each bridged to one of my mains. I can definitely go louder now, but none of us could tell the difference between them and the carver. Was level matched by the way. Was not blind. Just FYI.