New Amp for pre-outs..

[cvcgolf]

I'm wondering how many of you have added an amp to your receiver or integrated amp and noticed a big sound improvement. I'm using an older Yamaha DSP-A1 integrated amp. I do enjoy the sound coming from my Monitor Audio 9i speakers for movies, cd's and sacd's. Just curious about making an improvement.

 

[Affejunge]

I will say for me, when I had my yammie 663 and hooked up a 45wpc Parasound z-amp v3 to drive my mains...I heard a huge difference.

That experiment convinced me to go separates...and my life has been a nightmare ever since!

Some people say it is hogwash, but I can tell you, a good amp can make a huge difference in the rendering of the sound.

 

[yepimonfire]

I will say for me, when I had my yammie 663 and hooked up a 45wpc Parasound z-amp v3 to drive my mains...I heard a huge difference.

That experiment convinced me to go separates...and my life has been a nightmare ever since!

Some people say it is hogwash, but I can tell you, a good amp can make a huge difference in the rendering of the sound.

i'll second that, i've heard hundreds of times by lots of people on here amps make no sound quality difference but all my experience says different. just like the amps on my kenwood sound harsh and forced and the ones in my marantz sound very clear and detailed. it may not have anything to do with differences in frequency response but as far as actual clean power with lots of headroom i can definitely hear a difference in distortion. my computers distortion analyzer program says the same, it's certainly not a placebo effect. anyone who questions this i challenge you to hook up some speakers to your shelf system and listen to how distorted it sounds.

 

[yepimonfire]

I'm wondering how many of you have added an amp to your receiver or integrated amp and noticed a big sound improvement. I'm using an older Yamaha DSP-A1 integrated amp. I do enjoy the sound coming from my Monitor Audio 9i speakers for movies, cd's and sacd's. Just curious about making an improvement.

that amp should have very good sound quality by itself, i would stick with it.

 

[adwilk]

If the amplifiers are operating in their specified ranges, they should sound the same, provided their specs are at least comparable. If they do not, then one isn't working properly. That said, its ridiculous to say that all amplifiers sound the same. BUT, unless you're running out of headroom, DBTs would at least indicate that you can't tell the difference between a mainstream AVR and separate amp.

At the end of the day though, if you've got the extra cash and the placebo makes you justify the expense, go for it. I'm absolutely positive that my Carver amp sounds better than the ones in the AVR's I've had.

 

[adwilk]

but I can tell you, a good amp can make a huge difference in the rendering of the sound.

HUGE difference? Entertain me please.. based on what?

 

[yepimonfire]

HUGE difference? Entertain me please.. based on what?

it's really nothing more then headroom and the ability to cleanly keep up with transients and peaks, especially in the bass range. the kenwood i have always produces slight distortion on things like kick drum kicks and snare hits. i've seen alot of receivers that really can't produce good sound running full range because whenever something like a kick drums or bass guitar strum etc hits bass draws a lot more current then mids and treble because VC impedance goes down as frequency goes down. all i know is from experience and according to a distortion analyzer program i have is there certainly is a difference between amps, some amps really do sound "off" and harsh and i can't explain why. i would rather not debate this subject because these sorts of things is why my rep is so red in the first place. unless of course we can be civil and not call each other fools or trolls. i'm open to an intelligent, fact based discussion.

oh and i also know that theres always something wrong with the sound of a piano on my kenwood, i honestly have no idea why, all i know is its there.

 

[adwilk]

it's really nothing more then headroom and the ability to cleanly keep up with transients and peaks, especially in the bass range. the kenwood i have always produces slight distortion on things like kick drum kicks and snare hits. i've seen alot of receivers that really can't produce good sound running full range because whenever something like a kick drums or bass guitar strum etc hits bass draws a lot more current then mids and treble because VC impedance goes down as frequency goes down. all i know is from experience and according to a distortion analyzer program i have is there certainly is a difference between amps, some amps really do sound "off" and harsh and i can't explain why. i would rather not debate this subject because these sorts of things is why my rep is so red in the first place. unless of course we can be civil and not call each other fools or trolls. i'm open to an intelligent, fact based discussion.

oh and i also know that theres always something wrong with the sound of a piano on my kenwood, i honestly have no idea why, all i know is its there.

The reason I quoted him was that I was hoping he would answer that question specifically.... But oh well... As far as headroom, he went down in wattage to the Parasound. Again, provided that the amplifiers are operating in their specified ranges, this eliminates the headroom argument entirely. If an amplifier colors the sound in any way, its not working properly. Its safe to say that the Kenwood wasn't working properly. I'm not asking for DBT in most cases, but at the very least level match the devices and keep an open mind.

 

[PENG]

it's really nothing more then headroom and the ability to cleanly keep up with transients and peaks, especially in the bass range. the kenwood i have always produces slight distortion on things like kick drum kicks and snare hits. i've seen alot of receivers that really can't produce good sound running full range because whenever something like a kick drums or bass guitar strum etc hits bass draws a lot more current then mids and treble because VC impedance goes down as frequency goes down. all i know is from experience and according to a distortion analyzer program i have is there certainly is a difference between amps, some amps really do sound "off" and harsh and i can't explain why. i would rather not debate this subject because these sorts of things is why my rep is so red in the first place. unless of course we can be civil and not call each other fools or trolls. i'm open to an intelligent, fact based discussion.

oh and i also know that theres always something wrong with the sound of a piano on my kenwood, i honestly have no idea why, all i know is its there.

Sound like there may be something wrong with your Kenwood, or it is just a weak amp to start with. Even my baby Denon (1705) can handle kick drums without audible distortion in my listening environment. As far as power goes, how much is needed depends on the individual's acoustic envirnoment. In my media room I can listen at well beyond reference level with just a few watts in terms of average power. The highest peak instantaneous current my meter has ever recorded is just a little over 10A and that's only during heavy bass drum hits.

I don't doubt under certain conditions someone could hear major difference between amps/AVRs (e.g. if there is something wrong with one of the amp being compared), but I would not make any blanket/unqualified statements especially when someone else money is at stake.

 

[yepimonfire]

it works fine, my point is it is a weak amp. and WPC ratings don;t always tell you how much headroom your going to have, alot of sub amps have headroom of 500w but only operate at 100w RMS at max volume, most decent receivers can put out their claimed wattage, but thats it, no more, if you want to get a 50w gain on your music you need a good 100w worth of headroom at least. most 100wpc receivers cannot put out 100 "comfortable" watts with ease, that 100w rating is with the volume cranked to the max and a sine wave playing at 0dBFS. many standalone amps rated at 100w have a dynamic output of much more and 100 is its comfort zone. and dang dude, 10A is a LOAD of power!

 

[PENG]

and dang dude, 10A is a LOAD of power!

Dude, that's instantaneous peak, and I'm talking about bass drum, not one of those little kick/snarl thing. You can play many CDs all day long and may never hit those kind of peaks.

What model was that Kenwood if you don't mind? I had a vintage KA-990 that wasn't all that powerful, but no audible distortion.

 

[PENG]

and dang dude, 10A is a LOAD of power!

Dude, that's instantaneous peak, and I'm talking about bass drum, not one of those little kick/snarl thing. You can play many CDs all day long and may never hit those kind of peaks.

What model was that Kenwood if you don't mind? I had a vintage KA-990 that wasn't all that powerful, but no audible distortion in my application. My point is, it may be better if we qualify our claims.

 

[yepimonfire]

KA - 4040 i think

 

[lsiberian]

I will say for me, when I had my yammie 663 and hooked up a 45wpc Parasound z-amp v3 to drive my mains...I heard a huge difference.

That experiment convinced me to go separates...and my life has been a nightmare ever since!

Some people say it is hogwash, but I can tell you, a good amp can make a huge difference in the rendering of the sound.

A good receiver has good amps.

 

[yepimonfire]

A good receiver has good amps.

+1, im only talking about low end stuff having "bad" sound, or more like distortion. compare a high end denon to a high end onkyo to a high end marantz and there will be no difference, compare a sony to any of those and you will notice a huge difference. honestly the only two reasons to go with separate amps is if you need more power or if you want to run an active x-over network.

 

[wire]

If the amplifiers are operating in their specified ranges, they should sound the same, provided their specs are at least comparable. If they do not, then one isn't working properly. That said, its ridiculous to say that all amplifiers sound the same. BUT, unless you're running out of headroom, DBTs would at least indicate that you can't tell the difference between a mainstream AVR and separate amp.

At the end of the day though, if you've got the extra cash and the placebo makes you justify the expense, go for it. I'm absolutely positive that my Carver amp sounds better than the ones in the AVR's I've had.

Your Carver is not a regular Amp )) what model , i have tfm35 , its sound is much different than my bryston 4b .

 

[Affejunge]

The reason I quoted him was that I was hoping he would answer that question specifically.... But oh well... As far as headroom, he went down in wattage to the Parasound. Again, provided that the amplifiers are operating in their specified ranges, this eliminates the headroom argument entirely. If an amplifier colors the sound in any way, its not working properly. Its safe to say that the Kenwood wasn't working properly. I'm not asking for DBT in most cases, but at the very least level match the devices and keep an open mind.

Wow this page has blown up!

Looks like the arguments are breaking into the usual camps! As for "HUGE" difference(fine, a little hyperbole), sound, especially music, sounded much more detailed. Mid-level bass, on my Axiom bookshelves, had a clean "snap" to it. It was all well defined.

Now, last weekend, I put my Adcom GFA-5500 vs my friend's Audio Research amp (think it was the 100.2, I know it was a solid state, no tube). I think I paid about $90 for that amp on e-bay; my friend paid about a grand for the AR. And, this is where I lose my friends, him and I both agreed, going back and forth twice, the was almost no difference is sound. The AR did edge out slightly...but very...very..slightly. I, and my friend, were both shocked. The difference was almost none.

So I agree, well designed amps probably all do sound the same. I would argue almost no sub $1800 receiver has a good amp. I found the Yammie 663 to be a total POS in both audio and especially video (WHY WHY WHY did they mess with the video signal?!). I had been happy with Yamaha in the past.. but now that I have cracked into the world of separates..I am not going back!

 

[jostenmeat]

So I agree, well designed amps probably all do sound the same. I would argue almost no sub $1800 receiver has a good amp. I found the Yammie 663 to be a total POS in both audio and especially video (WHY WHY WHY did they mess with the video signal?!). I had been happy with Yamaha in the past.. but now that I have cracked into the world of separates..I am not going back!

I thought the 663 transcoded pretty well. I am aware that it clips BTB/WTW, so perhaps that is what you are alluding to.

There have been a lot of sub $1800 receivers with very good amp sections. You have to remember, not everyone chooses 81 db/m sensitivity speakers with nominal impedances at 4 ohms or worse. Some have a modest living room, with high sensitivity bookshelves.

My pre/pro is the Onkyo 805 where I don't use its amp, and for a bit more than $600, it holds its own as far as the amp section. It doesn't weigh 52 lbs for nothing. Beefy power supply.

 

[Affejunge]

I thought the 663 transcoded pretty well. I am aware that it clips BTB/WTW, so perhaps that is what you are alluding to.

Well for home theater the 663 was fine for audio. To be honest, I have never heard that much of a difference with that application. Hard to critically listen to car chase ending in an explosion!

The clipping was the first obvious issue with video. The other, more serious, was contrast. I could never get my blacks right; they were always being crushed. I just assumed it was my display. Then, on a hunch, I hooked my Blu-ray player right to the TV. Re-calibrated, and the display looked excellent! Great black-levels (well, 'great' for LCD) with no crushing. Since the 663 transcodes analog video to hdmi, my feeling is this is where the error is(or the error is introduced with text overlay). I never did test it with video transcoding turned off. That may have cleared up the issue.

But regardless, why in the hell would a processor touch HDMI to HDMI video? Just make a bit x bit copy and move along.

 

[yepimonfire]

Wow this page has blown up!

Looks like the arguments are breaking into the usual camps! As for "HUGE" difference(fine, a little hyperbole), sound, especially music, sounded much more detailed. Mid-level bass, on my Axiom bookshelves, had a clean "snap" to it. It was all well defined.

Now, last weekend, I put my Adcom GFA-5500 vs my friend's Audio Research amp (think it was the 100.2, I know it was a solid state, no tube). I think I paid about $90 for that amp on e-bay; my friend paid about a grand for the AR. And, this is where I lose my friends, him and I both agreed, going back and forth twice, the was almost no difference is sound. The AR did edge out slightly...but very...very..slightly. I, and my friend, were both shocked. The difference was almost none.

So I agree, well designed amps probably all do sound the same. I would argue almost no sub $1800 receiver has a good amp. I found the Yammie 663 to be a total POS in both audio and especially video (WHY WHY WHY did they mess with the video signal?!). I had been happy with Yamaha in the past.. but now that I have cracked into the world of separates..I am not going back!

i have noticed differences in that, but not just on mid-bass, on lower bass as well, this would be because of like i said, lower frequencies drawing more power then the amp can supply causing it not to sound right. this can been seen if you take a cheap amp, play a 1hz wave through a lower power amp with the volume cranked, the cone will go nearly all the way out and then "stop" before it finishes the cycle, causing it to come back too hard and vice versa on the next cycle that pulls the cone inwards. this happens with my kenwood, on my marantz, it can do the entire cycle with ease. this in turn at normal musical frequencies would end up turning into distortion.