New 2-Channel Pre-amp

[Affejunge]

I am looking to upgrade my current system. As I am sure happens with most of us when we get "the bug", there is nothing *wrong* with my system. I do hear deficiencies when compared to much higher priced rigs (big one is resolution on instruments. On my friends rig you can hear each string of the guitar being plucked, or each violin string vibrating, on mine, it is all kinda "smeared") but all-and-all, I am happy with the sound of my system, so I don't want to break it!

I feel I can do better than the Outlaw 970 for a 2-ch preamp. With a 2-ch preamp, I have the following MUST haves:

• HT pass-through
• Analog Bass Management

I am really leaning toward the Parasound 2100. I have a Zamp v3 and it is really a remarkable amp, so I am impressed with their stuff.

The other is the Emotiva USP-1, which I know almost nothing about. I like the adjustable crossover for High Pass, but do not like that fact is has to be powered on for HT Pass-through (make me wonder what's going on in there) But it is $200 bucks cheaper.

I would prefer the one with a better phono preamp. I am currently using a home-built one (which, btw, has crushed, in performance, two different Rotel phono amps and the NAD PP-2) I am really happy with my phono amp, but, if there is an integrated one that sounds as good for MM, all the better.

In short, the best quality 2-ch preamp with HT bypass, Analog BM, optionally good phono stage, and cost less than $700!

Suggestions?

 

[Warpdrv]

Heres a suggestion for you...

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68729



couldn't ask for a better seller....

 

[sawzalot]

Heres a suggestion for you...

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68729



couldn't ask for a better seller....

or a better deal

 

[ParadigmDawg]

couldn't ask for a better seller....

I will agree with that, He paid for the DawgCrusher while we were still talking about him buying it. Now that is quick!

 

[KEW]

I think you are looking the wrong direction.

Before you buy a preamp, if possible, see if you take your Outlaw and speakers to his house and try swapping the pre and later the speakers. I bet your Outlaw will sound great in his room on his speakers. The really interesting test will be what you speakers sound like in his room (use the same placement he is using)!

 

[Seth=L]

KEW is right.

If your friend doesn't mind, you could bring your amp, speakers, and preamp over to his house to determine why his system as a whole sounds different from yours. Once you know for sure the cause, invest in that, otherwise you're shooting in the dark. Room acoustics and speakers are the primary causes of the differences you hear. The Outlaw amp and preamp are both of very competitent design and build quality, and I would expect no tolerance linearity from both of them.

 

[Affejunge]

I agree with both of you!

I believe the best money spent would be on new loudspeakers.

Unfortunately, with three sub 5-year-olds in the house, I really do not want to watch the 4 year old twins play crush-the-baby by pushing down towers, or watch the baby play the "Wow, look how nicely tweeters crush in" game (as he has done with my VP150, I blame my wife! )

Sooooo...since new loudspeakers are off the table for another 5 years or so, I am left with only a few things to upgrade:

• Incorporate a nice 2 channel preamp
• Upgrade the phono amp
• Upgrade the turntable

About 75% of my music listening is vinyl. I did just upgrade the stock cartridge on my Rega P1 to the Shure M97xE. It was an excellent upgrade for very little money.

Maybe I should be looking at my last two options!?

 

[3db]

I agree with both of you!

I believe the best money spent would be on new loudspeakers.

Unfortunately, with three sub 5-year-olds in the house, I really do not want to watch the 4 year old twins play crush-the-baby by pushing down towers, or watch the baby play the "Wow, look how nicely tweeters crush in" game (as he has done with my VP150, I blame my wife! )

Sooooo...since new loudspeakers are off the table for another 5 years or so, I am left with only a few things to upgrade:

• Incorporate a nice 2 channel preamp
• Upgrade the phono amp
• Upgrade the turntable

About 75% of my music listening is vinyl. I did just upgrade the stock cartridge on my Rega P1 to the Shure M97xE. It was an excellent upgrade for very little money.

Maybe I should be looking at my last two options!?

There is nothing wrong with that Outlaw preamp as you will find out when you swap that into your friends system. Out of the last two options, I would upgrade the turntable but keeping that new cartridge you just purchased. Jump to a Rega P3 or a ProJect Xperience. I have a ProJect Xpression II with a recently upgraded Ortofon Red over the SM-10 and I really like what I hear. I'm using my Yamaha's RX-V1800 built in phono amp. If I were to upgrade, I would go for the ProJect Xperience or its sister, the RPM-5.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yup, I agree with the speakers also.

If your pre-pro is in Direct Mode, there should not be any difference between your pre-pro and your friend's pre-pro's sound quality.

The difference is in the speakers.

 

[KEW]

If you can arrange it, you should still test your speakers (at least) on his system and compare the sound with what you are used to. You may find big differences between the rooms. If so, you would be better off investing in sound treatments, or, if that is not a possibility (WAF), figuring out ways to improve room acoustics which you both can live with (like moving potted plant to a different location).

If you find it is the room, take a pictures of your friends room and pictures of your own room and the guys in the room acoustics subforum can help you zero in on what is most important to try to correct.

You've got decent gear and I fear you are going to "upgrade" only to find that it didn't make any audible difference.

I can tell you that the differences I can hear between different rooms of my house is astounding. I don't know if it is the speaker placement or the room acoustics.

From:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/speaker-face-off-iii

The highs were delightfully transparent, and clean. In fact the only speakers in this review we felt to be better in this regard were the considerably more expensive RBH 61-LSE ($1795/pair) and the Monitor Audio GR-10 ($1495/pair).

That doesn't sound like a pair of speakers that could easily sound all kinda "smeared".
It would be one thing if you were saying you hear this when A-B'ing the speakers in the same room using a level matched set-up. But if the difference is great enough that you can leave his house, drive home, and be certain there is an obvious difference, I'm betting you'll find your speakers sound better than you would imagine if you put them in his room at roughly the same position as his are.

 

[Affejunge]

You've got decent gear and I fear you are going to "upgrade" only to find that it didn't make any audible difference.

I am sure this is very true, I sheepishly admit I am upgrading to upgrade. Like I said, there is nothing wrong with my system. The smearing mentioned, is only when I put my ear to his speakers and do the same to mine (so I don't think it is room acoustics). That said, I do not sit on my couch thinking the music is all "smeary"!

I am actually now leaning toward picking up a used Integra 9.8 or 9.9. This will remove all of my multichannel analog issues, get rid of a rat's nest of interconnects, allow me to have HDMI switching integrated into the processor, and have room EQ!

I will be with out analog bass management, but that will only affect vinyl playback. Since about 80% of what I listen to never drops below 60Hz, losing the sub will be noticeable, but I do not think it will "ruin" the experience.

Ideas?

 

[3db]

I am sure this is very true, I sheepishly admit I am upgrading to upgrade. Like I said, there is nothing wrong with my system. The smearing mentioned, is only when I put my ear to his speakers and do the same to mine (so I don't think it is room acoustics). That said, I do not sit on my couch thinking the music is all "smeary"!

I am actually now leaning toward picking up a used Integra 9.8 or 9.9. This will remove all of my multichannel analog issues, get rid of a rat's nest of interconnects, allow me to have HDMI switching integrated into the processor, and have room EQ!

I will be with out analog bass management, but that will only affect vinyl playback. Since about 80% of what I listen to never drops below 60Hz, losing the sub will be noticeable, but I do not think it will "ruin" the experience.

Ideas?

Have you played with speaker placement yet?

 

[Affejunge]

Have you played with speaker placement yet?

WAF WAF WAF....


Did a lot of playing with them before I installed them, so I am pretty confident that the speakers and sub have the best placement.

Funny note, when I first set up this system, I was having MAJOR bass issues (nowhere loud enough) Oppo said it was the Outlaw, Outlaw said it was the Oppo.

About 5 months ago, the system "clicked". Everything sounds great now. I am pretty sure it is part of the joys of analog. I hate the fact there is a 13db difference between my lines outs of the Oppo and the LFE out (the Oppo is doing no BM), but it all sounds tight...soooooo...

Again, the thought of keeping everything in the digital domain is beginning to appeal to me. I am really beginning to lean toward an Integra 9.8 or 9.9 . I just don't want my vinyl to start to sound like crap.

Of course if I do that...sucks I upgraded to the Oppo SE!

 

[Knucklehead90]

I'll throw my $.02 worth in with the others that recommended new speakers - although the M22s are a very decent bookshelf.

I doubt you'll hear much difference between the Outlaw and the Integra prepros - both are quite good. The differences will probably be in the analog area where the Integra seems to have SQ issues - according to some. I've owned the Onkyo SC885 - same as the Integra 9.8 but I thought the analog audio was good enough.

This leaves you back at upgrading speakers to gain sound quality. Towers can be fortified to not fall over easily either by bracings attached to the wall or put them on a platform of some kind. I know how that sounds but better having a speaker on a platform than a speaker on a child.

 

[3db]

WAF WAF WAF....


Did a lot of playing with them before I installed them, so I am pretty confident that the speakers and sub have the best placement.

Funny note, when I first set up this system, I was having MAJOR bass issues (nowhere loud enough) Oppo said it was the Outlaw, Outlaw said it was the Oppo.

About 5 months ago, the system "clicked". Everything sounds great now. I am pretty sure it is part of the joys of analog. I hate the fact there is a 13db difference between my lines outs of the Oppo and the LFE out (the Oppo is doing no BM), but it all sounds tight...soooooo...

Again, the thought of keeping everything in the digital domain is beginning to appeal to me. I am really beginning to lean toward an Integra 9.8 or 9.9 . I just don't want my vinyl to start to sound like crap.

Of course if I do that...sucks I upgraded to the Oppo SE!

You could always look at the marantz pre/pro reviewed here; http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67233&highlight=Marantz+Prepro

 

[Affejunge]

Towers can be fortified to not fall over easily either by bracings attached to the wall or put them on a platform of some kind. I know how that sounds but better having a speaker on a platform than a speaker on a child.

Agreed. Just the house we live in is a little tight right now for fortified speakers!

Being in the military, at least I know I am moving soon, there is no way to stop it! I am now leaning toward saving my money and wait till the new house.

 

[Affejunge]

You could always look at the marantz pre/pro reviewed here; http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67233&highlight=Marantz+Prepro

Wow.. this looks really good. I have been eying the Marantz 8003

But, this looks like about the same features for less. Even more weight to wait-it-out.

 

[indcrimdefense]

first, thank you for your service to our country. the sacrifices made by military families too often are under appreciated. second, my comments will be general in nature as i am unfamiliar with your particular components and speakers. third, my comments are based on my personal, idiotic journey through this wonderful obsession of ours.

if your friend is willing, haul your gear over there, crack some beers and have some fun. unless i missed it, you didn't mention your friend's components, speakers or room. also see if you can find a local dealer willing to do in home demos w/ a pre-amp, so you can hear if it makes a difference or not, and as importantly, is a difference your willing to pay for. many dealers, at least in indy, will allow you to demo components at home, and this has saved me countless thousands of dollars that would have been wasted if i had just pulled the trigger. optimally, do both.

from too much experience, going to a dedicated 2 channel, analog only pre-amp can have a significant impact on sound quality. i looked into it with a lengthy demo of a classe cdp-500 when i was using a cinema 11 as a pre/pro.
yes it was an improvement in sound quality, yes it was noticeable, and at times it went too far, as it was too accurate, at least in my system with my speakers. less than pristinely recorded material (think modern recordings where some idiot engineer shoves all the levels past 11 for the ipod crowd) sounded awful. this is no criticism of the classe, but i didn't want THAT accurate. for stellar recordings (patricia barber-nightclub, diana krall, the doors 40th remasters, etc) it was an improvement in sound quality over my cinema 11 (only comparing to 2 channel analog bypass). eventually i opted for a mcintosh C45, which was an improvement over both the cary and classe for ALL music. previously i have purchased and demoed more pre-amps and pre-pros than i care to remember, so it was a long journey to the mcintosh. now i just listen to and enjoy music.

all of the above is also good advice, particularly since i have never heard your equipment and speakers. switching pre-amps can have a significant impact on sound quality, either for the better or worse. some components don't play with others, particularly depending on what speakers your using. at other times, it can make absolutely zero difference at all. i'm not necessarily advocating any particular component, or even brand, simply saying listen before you buy, hopefully at home w/ your components, speakers and room. then you can make an informed choice as to whether you can hear a difference, and also is a difference your willing to pay for.

 

[Affejunge]

first, thank you for your service to our country. the sacrifices made by military families too often are under appreciated.

Thank you for your support.


I sorry I did not respond sooner, but serendipity struck! On my way home Wednesday, I noticed the local stereo shop in Monterey was actually open (usually closed since the guy is out doing installs) I walked in and talked with the owner, John. As I spoke his eyes lit up. He said he just found an old 9.8, new, never opened, in his store room. So, there is was, brand new, in my hands, I could not resist.

So far I am pretty happy. My first attempt at audyssey was fairly lack luster and I thought I made mistake in purchasing the unit. But, with advice from Kal over at audiogon, I took all 8 measurements. Oddly, speaker distance was way off (first time it was almost spot on). After all 8 measurements, and manually updating distance, the sound field is excellent. All my digital sources (bluray, dvd, sacd, dvda) sound their best. Room EQing really helps. Switching it on and off, it is amazing how "dark" and bassy it was before. I thought it sounded fine, but the reality is now music actually sounds like a live performance. Also, it has somewhat cleared up the "smearing" I talked about. For all things digital, I am REALLY happy with this pro.

from too much experience, going to a dedicated 2 channel, analog only pre-amp can have a significant impact on sound quality. i looked into it with a lengthy demo of a classe cdp-500 when i was using a cinema 11 as a pre/pro.

I am sure this is correct. This is a real short coming with the Integra. If I use an analog in, say CD in, then the signal goes though the the ADC. This is by far the best ADC I have heard, and the ability to apply audyssey is nice, but, it "kills" the sound. My vinyl now sounds "dead", just like cds or other digital sources. If I run it though the multi-in and avoid ADC, it is better, but, still nowhere near the openness of the Outlaw. The Outlaw 970 really has a fine analog stage. This has convinced me to save my pennies and get the Parasound 2100 next year or so.

Also, I am not a fan of the video processor. I was really looking forward to using it, but it exhibits the same issue my Yamaha 663 did. It does something with the contrast that gives me eye strain almost immediately. Fortunately, UNLIKE the yammie, I can turn it off! I found a web site that explains how to set contrast and brightness on the Reon in the 9.8, so I will play with that maybe this weekend and see if I can improve it. As for scaling and deinterlacing, it is on par with the Anchor Bay VRS in the Oppo.

I will post of full review later here and on my blog.

THANK YOU to all for all your help. I really do apprciate it. Ahhh...now there is a processor calling my name!

- Mark

 

[indcrimdefense]

congrats! never know what you will find just by stopping in at the dealer.