KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Not to say the XPA-2 can't do the job, but for peace of mind the 1 is much better because it can definitely do 500 W into 2 ohms, 250 W into 1 ohm, guaranteed..
Unfortunately, Emotiva has none in stock!
Can the ATi amps comfortably handle 2 ohms?
If not, that leaves the Quad 909 and the Crown pro amp as candidates under $2000.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I know I'm late to this party, but I'd like to toss Anthem into this ring as well. All of their amps from the MCA series on up are completely stable into 2 Ohm loads. And the top tier Anthem Statement P Series amps are actually stable into a flat out short circuit :eek: Literally. You can connect the binding posts with a bare piece of wire and the amp won't shut down until the heat gets high enough to trip the protection circuit, which simply throws a breaker inside the amp that you can reset with the push of a button :D

The P2 probably won't fit within your budget unless you find someone selling a used one. But the Anthem Statement A2 might fit within your budget, and the regular Anthem MCA 20 almost certainly will. The A2 and MCA 20 are almost identical, but the MCA 20 uses fuses for protection, while the A2 ditches the fuses and uses the more advanced monitoring system with the reset breaker.

Anywho, just thought they might be another good option for you to consider. Driving speakers that dip down to very low impedance at certain frequencies can present a real challenge. Especially when you've got a whole bunch of fairly large bass drivers sucking up power like the dickens! Anthem's amps specialize in being stable into very low impedance loads, maintaining control over difficult bass frequency reproduction, and delivering more than their rated power while staying cool to the touch and never faltering in their power delivery. Their very low in noise and very uncolored and neutral, so they're worth a look in any case, IMO :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The P2 probably won't fit within your budget unless you find someone selling a used one. But the Anthem Statement A2 might fit within your budget, and the regular Anthem MCA 20 almost certainly will. The A2 and MCA 20 are almost identical, but the MCA 20 uses fuses for protection, while the A2 ditches the fuses and uses the more advanced monitoring system with the reset breaker.
I agree with you that if the A2 can do it, so can the poor man's A2, i.e. MCA20. The problem is that the A2/MCA20 won't do it IMHO. A while back I was wondering how they could claim the power output they published, unless those are not continuous ratings (data sheet says it is continuous). Guess what, I asked, got responses but no answer. It is like the EMO line, until you get to their flag ship models, you cannot read their specifications using the same assumptions. By the way, the A and MCA series overview says this:

"A2 and A5 amplifiers employ 16,400 micro farads (μF) of capacitance per channel. (That’s over 80,000 μf alone in the A5!) With so many joules of power in reserve, these amplifiers are able to instantly and effortlessly deliver full, uninterrupted bursts of power."

Now, try comparing that to the P series or even the XPA-1 (120,000 μf) and the 2's (45,000 μf) and you can see the big difference just as an example.

Also look at the PS transformer ratings of the XPA-5 vs 3, 2, and 1. Same design class, yet the VA to output ratio increases as you number of channels decreases.

It is likely that any Anthem 200W amp can do the job under certain conditions but to cover most (not all) conditions, you need the P2 and above. I do agree with everything else you said except I just don't think the A2 is as powerful as it may appear from the marketing material.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Unfortunately, Emotiva has none in stock!
Can the ATi amps comfortably handle 2 ohms?
If not, that leaves the Quad 909 and the Crown pro amp as candidates under $2000.
I thought that EMO can do the job from power output standpoint only. If it was for me I would prefer the ATI3002. The 3002 is rated 450W into 4 ohms, so it pretty much guarantees 225W into 2 ohms and 112.5W into 1 ohm but typically you can count on much more. I would guess something like 300W into 2 ohms and 150W into 1 ohm, just a wild guess though. So yes, it probably has enough output to drive those Legacy under most conditions.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I got rid of the 5308 and got the Denon 4311 instead because it was rated to 4 ohms, big mistake as this sounds like crap in comparison to my 5308.
This makes no sense to me.

First, the 5308 is more powerful than the 4311. It powers my Salon2 without breaking a sweat (w/o external amps).

Second, even my Denon 3310 & 3312 sound as good as my 5308 and AVP-A1HDCI.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
This makes no sense to me.

First, the 5308 is more powerful than the 4311. It powers my Salon2 without breaking a sweat (w/o external amps).

Second, even my Denon 3310 & 3312 sound as good as my 5308 and AVP-A1HDCI.
You might have missed the posts that talked about how hard his speakers are to drive. The sensitivity looked not too bad, about 95 dB at 2.83V one meter 4ohms so it needs 2W to get that 95 dB, but TLSG figured it has much lower dips, that combined with perhaps large phase angles at those dips, plus Grant suspect the specified 95 dB might have been for 1 kHz only and with several dB of room gain assumed/included so overall those things may be hard to drive. We also don't know his listening habits blablabla..............so overall may be that's why he thought the 4311 sounded like crap.:D
 
T

trader247

Enthusiast
This makes no sense to me.

First, the 5308 is more powerful than the 4311. It powers my Salon2 without breaking a sweat (w/o external amps).

Second, even my Denon 3310 & 3312 sound as good as my 5308 and AVP-A1HDCI.
I originally had the 5308 to run the Focus speakers and it worked for about a year and then the 5308 would not turn on. It blew. Denon was under warranty so I didn't think to much of it. 5308 was repaired and then about 6 months later blew again (out of warranty this time). I had repaired and did not want to chance it again as Denon can take weeks to months to fix something and now no warranty. I had been researching speaker impedance and saw that perhaps my speakers might be sucking too much out of the AVR. So, it was either change the speakers or change the AVR. I chose the later, got the 4311 (in part because specs say 4 ohm) and my speakers sound like crap coming out of it. They sounded wonderful through the 5308, but we know what happened there (maybe I had a bunk unit, I don't know and wasn't going to chance it again). The 4311 just does not have the juice to run the Legacy's. I love the receiver, so I am going the way of the amp, thus this forum:)
 
T

trader247

Enthusiast
I will start with the Crown XLS2500 for a few reasons.

1. Cheap
2. At Guitar Center down the street
3. Available right now, can try right away:)

Couple of questions. Looks like I can use either one or two of these Crown XLS2500 amps for my speakers, any recommendations?

Thanks
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I will start with the Crown XLS2500 for a few reasons.

1. Cheap
2. At Guitar Center down the street
3. Available right now, can try right away:)

Couple of questions. Looks like I can use either one or two of these Crown XLS2500 amps for my speakers, any recommendations?

Thanks
This unit has the right specs for your speakers with ample power reserves. I wouldn't expect benefits from the second unless you were exceeding the capabilities of the first.

PS - Sorry for taking things a bit off topic.:eek:
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
You might have missed the posts that talked about how hard his speakers are to drive. The sensitivity looked not too bad, about 95 dB at 2.83V one meter 4ohms so it needs 2W to get that 95 dB, but TLSG figured it has much lower dips, that combined with perhaps large phase angles at those dips, plus Grant suspect the specified 95 dB might have been for 1 kHz only and with several dB of room gain assumed/included so overall those things may be hard to drive. We also don't know his listening habits blablabla..............so overall may be that's why he thought the 4311 sounded like crap.:D
Legacy's sensitivity claims have been roughy verified by Stereophile.

The OP said he has a huge room.

The impedance dips into the 2 ohm range are not "figured", they were measured in-room on my pair, in 1997. TLS Guy was guessing, I wasn't.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
No, actually they look pretty good, but I remember reading that someone (ADTG?) heard hiss through his speakers on an Emotiva amp.
IMO, it's about gain structure. Even if the amp isn't itself making noise, a higher gain amp will make all the accumulated noise in the signal chain prior to the amp louder. An amp can't tell the difference between upstream signal and upstream noise, after all!

Incidentally, I also second FirstReflection's Anthem recommendation. Solid amps, good value, quiet, and properly NRTL safety certified.

Another one to consider (assuming a multichannel is needed) is a used Arcam P1000. NRTL safety certified, and fairly efficient due to the Class G power supply. Also, suitably snobbish brand name. :)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Legacy's sensitivity claims have been roughy verified by Stereophile.

The OP said he has a huge room.

The impedance dips into the 2 ohm range are not "figured", they were measured in-room on my pair, in 1997. TLS Guy was guessing, I wasn't.
I was not guessing. The impedance and phase curves are published in Stereophile.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I was not guessing. The impedance and phase curves are published in Stereophile.
No, they're not. That's for a different, newer, version of the speaker, with completely different drivers, and a different crossover. The speaker being discussed here is even worse. I mentioned that review only to note that JA roughly verified the sensitivity ratings of Legacy speakers (he did the same for another model), to counter GranteedEV's speculation that the sensitivity was contrived.

Edit - the drivers are not completely different for the speaker Stereophile measured. The Eton midrange drivers are the same.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I will start with the Crown XLS2500 for a few reasons.

1. Cheap
2. At Guitar Center down the street
3. Available right now, can try right away:)

Couple of questions. Looks like I can use either one or two of these Crown XLS2500 amps for my speakers, any recommendations?

Thanks
Just make sure you turn the gain levels on both channels of the Crown amp to 100%. :D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
No, they're not. That's for a different, newer, version of the speaker, with completely different drivers, and a different crossover. The speaker being discussed here is even worse. I mentioned that review only to note that JA roughly verified the sensitivity ratings of Legacy speakers (he did the same for another model), to counter GranteedEV's speculation that the sensitivity was contrived.

Edit - the drivers are not completely different for the speaker Stereophile measured. The Eton midrange drivers are the same.
The pictures sure looked the same.

Did you measure an impedance and phase curve while you had the speakers.

If those speakers had worse numbers than measured by Stereophile, that is not a very practical speaker.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Just make sure you turn the gain levels on both channels of the Crown amp to 100%. :D
Class D amps do not do well with dreadful impedance curves and phase angles. This is especially true were ringing in the crossover is a very likely possibility.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
The pictures sure looked the same.

Did you measure an impedance and phase curve while you had the speakers.

If those speakers had worse numbers than measured by Stereophile, that is not a very practical speaker.
The Focus has gone through several versions since it was introduced (1992?). The version in this thread, and the ones I owned, were the original version. The next version, and the first ones Stereophile reviewed, were a major update; the 20/20 version. I had a chance to audition a pair of 20/20s near my home at the time (Legacy was still direct sales only), and they had some really different characteristics than my originals. One big difference seemed to be that the originals use a very gentle (1st order maybe?) high-pass filter on those Eton midranges, and they put out a lot of what was really bass. In the 20/20s it was clear Legacy used one of the 12" woofers in the front to reach into the lower midrange and rolled off the Etons much sooner. To my ears that changed everything for solo piano. The leaf tweeter was a different driver, and the low range tweeter was a new design, but by the same company. I was told the Eminence woofers had been "updated".

After the 20/20 came the HD, and Legacy got rid of the third woofer in the back, and swapped out the Eton midrange drivers for a custom design. The tweeters went custom too. IMHO, the HDs may look similar to the original Focus, but they on a different planet as far as performance. (A better planet.) I haven't heard the SE version yet.

The story with the measurements on my pair was that a friend of mine at the time was into speaker design, and he was trying to become a manufacturer. (He never made it.) He was so curious about the Focus he asked to measure my pair. He came over with equipment and mics, including a scope, and measured for a few hours. He thought the Focus was "an electrical disaster", and joked it must have been designed just to show off the Class A Krell monoblocks I was using at the time. Yes, he measured impedance and electrical phase. I didn't keep the curves he printed out for me all those years ago. He wanted to take one of them outside to better measure the frequency response, but I wouldn't let him. My pair had custom rosewood veneer that was simply gorgeous, they were big and weighed 165lbs each, and I didn't want them scratched. He used some sort of software I don't remember the name of to measure simulated anechoic frequency response above 200Hz, or something like that. At my listening seat he used an RTA to estimate frequency response.

One bright spot was that the scope revealed very low distortion everywhere he measured. The frequency response, however, always looked like a classic saddle curve. These speakers were clearly "voiced" to sound a certain way.

We are in complete agreement, it was not a very practical speaker. But if you had the amps to properly power them, I never found another speaker at that time for anything like the price that sounded as good, especially in the mids and highs. I later liked the Carver Amazing, but I didn't have an appropriate room for them, so they were out. My previous speakers were from ADS, but by the latter half of the 1990s ADS had lost their way, and the ADS tweeters weren't very good. I didn't like the B&Ws I could afford. I liked the Martin Logan Monolith, but being a solo piano nut revealed their driver transition weakness too much for the price. And my room was a problem. In fact, I found anything that would fit in my room or that I could afford weren't substantially better, they just had different weaknesses I found more annoying.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Couple of questions. Looks like I can use either one or two of these Crown XLS2500 amps for my speakers, any recommendations?
Only one. You do not want to bridge these amps into driving this speaker.
 

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