Need plans for listening room loudspeaker. High budget. Good talent. No time to learn.

agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
With a $10K, I'd just order the Salk Soundscape 8 in a nice customer veneer and sit back downing beers waiting for them to arrive. I would be happy in the knowledge that the end result will sound better than most store bought $10K speakers and look infinitely better than anything I could put together.

 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Sound minds think alike :D. I personally think the SS8 sounds better than most or all $25,000 speakers.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
So would I. I've had my Phil 2s for like two years now, and they never cease to take my breath away. Considering SS8s are basically Phil 2s + Better-looking + better bass? What's there to complain about?
Thanks for chiming in. I couldn't have said it better.

For the benefit of the original poster, the ER18 MTM, most Salk speakers, and the Philharmonic speakers that GranteedEV mentioned, are all designed by the same speaker and crossover designer, Dennis Murphy. The large Philharmonic 3-way speakers are a less expensive version of the Salk SoundScape 8 speakers. His design choices and tastes in speaker sound happen to be, in my opinion, about perfect. Many others agree.

If you really intend to spend $10k for speakers, I'd skip DIY and call Jim Salk.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I know I have said it a bunch of times but ascend sierra towers with dual drive uls15 subs sounds as good as anything I have ever heard, sure I have heard things a little better in certain areas but for dollar to dollar to get solid gains you may have to spend quite a bit more... You can get all 4 pcs for $5-6K depending on finishes and tweeters... The phil 3s would also be a great speaker and I have never heard a bad salk speaker..
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I'm in the market for a new set of loudspeakers. I can justify $10k+ for the speaker build. But here's the thing... and it will come off terrible I know... but I don't have time to learn everything I need to to design my own system. So my preference is to obtain detailed plans and parts lists.
I applaud that you're not just trying to jump in head-first and instead going for something designed by someone that knows what they're doing. There are definitely a lot of great designs out there, but I guess you really have to have a feel for what you want though. The biggest issue is that when you get into the extreme high end, a lot of the best drivers only seem to be used in two-way bookshelves rather than full-on tower-beasts. The full-on tower beasts in turn tend to be convoluted speakers, often utilizing active electronics in the signal chain and very customized controls. Nothing that can't be replicated I'm sure, but you definitely might want to look beyond just designs done with passive crossover components simply because they're fewer apart.

A few questions I have for you would be:

- What are the dimensions of your listening room and how open are you to placement?
- On the note of your listening room, have you looked into getting it professionally designed or "treated" (the former being more ideal than the latter) for music-listening (note: this does not mean stuffing it full of absorption pads)
- Are you attached to any particular electronics, or are you open to perhaps buying and using six or more channels of ampification for stereo sound?
- Are you open to the implementation of multiple subwoofers to ensure tight bass response?

I have probably every tool needed to build anything wood metal or concrete. I can also solder if needed. I'm not a master of any particular thing but I can build it. It will take me more time, but I can do it.
Good to hear.

So, what's the ultimate floor standing speaker build?
Well, TLS Guy's Seas Excel Transmission Line towers are pretty damn ambitious with high end drivers from top to bottom, and they're certainly neutral and praised by some very knowledgable recording engineers and profressionals. I dunno if an "ultimate" build really exists though.

The first thing that I've noticed is the use of MDF... and I'm not trying to get into a debate about that. I just know there are better materials that resonate less and I'm open to using those.
No single material is "ideal" or resonance-free. Steel is useful for bracing due to its very high tensile strength but not so much as a panel material where it's gonna ring like, well, steel. Bitumen is gonna be useful with adhesives due to its damping properties, but it is not stiff at all as a structural element. Void-free Bamboo Ply is gonna be pretty stiff-and-light, but its a ***** on your tools. Concrete (more specifically, Hardiebacker cement board) is another great material but again, you'll need the tools to use it correctly. One nice self-damping material is Polyurethane, but it needs to be molded. All-in-all, you can't expect any single material to be perfect no matter what they tell you. The technique used to build the box is as important as anything else.

If you're really, really looking to make some "extremely" well-constructed boxes, the thing I would recommend the following:

1) A cross-brace every four inches of diameter. This correlates to a rough quarter-wavelength of around 850hz. This also means you have to take bracing volume into account. The internal volume of the box is reduced as you add more bracing, and must be compensated for. Steel L-Angles are nice for this.

2) Constrain layer damping of the cabinet walls using two different materials and an appropriate damping layer in between. Myself, lsiberian and others can help you with further information. Constraining 3/4" or 1" Bamboo Ply with Concrete board, and an appropriate damping material holding them together in between (perhaps 1/4" of green glue) is a much better solution than using a single material. Again, this will reduce your internal air volume. Your baffle (the part of the speaker housing the drivers) ought to be two or three times thicker than the rest of the speaker, as well, as it is mechanically fastened to driver frames.

3) Quality internal absorption fill material such as Roxul Rock Wool or Ultratouch Denim Insulation.

4) PL9000 and Silicon to close down any holes / leaks.

5) Correct roundovers to minimize diffraction. Wood and MDF are a lot easier to work on than other materials.

Of course, all that's a crap ton of work and planning. I am currently building a pair of speakers with 1" MDF, extensionally damped with roughly 1/10th of an inch of roofing-bitumen and braced at roughly about 5-6 inches apart... and that's pretty much "enough work" for me as I don't subscribe to box construction as being a dominant trait of loudspeaker design beyond the essentials. They're pretty solid on the knock test as it is IMHO.
 
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ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I applaud that you're not just trying to jump in head-first and instead going for something designed by someone that knows what they're doing. There are definitely a lot of great designs out there, but I guess you really have to have a feel for what you want though. The biggest issue is that when you get into the extreme high end, a lot of the best drivers only seem to be used in two-way bookshelves rather than full-on tower-beasts. The full-on tower beasts in turn tend to be convoluted speakers, often utilizing active electronics in the signal chain and very customized controls. Nothing that can't be replicated I'm sure, but you definitely might want to look beyond just designs done with passive crossover components simply because they're fewer apart.



Good to hear.



Well, TLS Guy's Seas Excel Transmission Line towers are pretty damn ambitious with high end drivers from top to bottom, and they're certainly neutral and praised by some very knowledgable recording engineers and profressionals. I dunno if an "ultimate" build really exists though.



No single material is "ideal" or resonance-free. Steel is useful for bracing due to its very high tensile strength but not so much as a panel material. Bitumen is useful due to its damping properties, but it is not stiff at all. Void-free Bamboo Ply is gonna be pretty stiff-and-light, but its a ***** on your tools. Concrete (more specifically, Hardiebacker cement board) is another great material but again, you'll need the tools to use it correctly. One nice self-damping material is Polyurethane, but it needs to be molded. All-in-all, you can't expect any single material to be perfect no matter what they tell you. The technique used to build the box is as important as anything else.

If you're really, really looking to make some "extremely" well-constructed boxes, the thing I would recommend the following:

1) A cross-brace every four inches of diameter. This correlates to a rough quarter-wavelength of around 850hz. This also means you have to take bracing volume into account. The internal volume of the box is reduced as you add more bracing, and must be compensated for. Steel L-Angles are nice for this.

2) Constrain layer damping of the cabinet walls using two different materials and an appropriate damping layer in between. Myself, lsiberian and others can help you with further information. Constraining 3/4" or 1" Bamboo Ply with Concrete board, and an appropriate damping material holding them together in between (perhaps 1/4" of green glue) is a much better solution than using a single material. Again, this will reduce your internal air volume. Your baffle (the part of the speaker housing the drivers) ought to be two or three times thicker than the rest of the speaker, as well, as it is mechanically fastened to driver frames.

3) Quality internal absorption fill material such as Roxul Rock Wool or Ultratouch Denim Insulation.

4) PL9000 and Silicon to close down any holes / leaks.

5) Correct roundovers to minimize diffraction. Wood and MDF are a lot easier to work on than other materials.

Of course, all that's a crap ton of work and planning. I am currently building a pair of speakers with 1" MDF, extensionally damped with roughly 1/10th of an inch of roofing-bitumen and braced at roughly about 5-6 inches apart... and that's pretty much "enough work" for me as I don't subscribe to box construction as being a dominant trait of loudspeaker design beyond the essentials. They're pretty solid on the knock test as it is IMHO.
What about granite.... a few of them have popped up


Theres something about curved cabinets that adds to the speaker, maybe not sound wise, but square boxes are just plain.. One of the reasons I haven't bought sierra towers yet, and most diy projects are square plain enclosures, if your spending that kind of money, I would want it to be furniture grade and look like it cost what it cost...

some speakers are just gorgeous look at the paradigm tribute towers http://www.stereophile.com/images/011013Paradigm-600.jpg or any sonus, lol https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQEaJhUCSu9bJQLU5HOLg20U7sanFS8A-orzNN9VrKfn4aw7CeQ,
http://www.sonusfaber.com/ContentsFiles/4658da70-51ea-4b70-28e2-5300e52c4ef9.jpg curvy cabnets are sexy...
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
What about granite.... a few of them have popped up
Well.. what about granite? As a stand-alone material, it just is what it is. Used properly, I don't see how it would be poor.

most diy projects are square plain enclosures
Well... it's easier.

But Curved cabiinets are still very DIY-able. A few that come to mind for me would be:




and.. while not curved... absolutely not a box either:

 
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G

GTHill

Audioholic
Just letting everyone know that I'm reading each reply and learning as I go.

I am fine with commissioning a build or buying outright. As a comparison, I've looked at used Wilson Audio Alexandrias in the past. Now used they are still in the $45k range which is outside of my budget right now. Not looking to start a debate on Wilson Audio etc but when I listened to them I was astonished. Now I'll freely admit that I haven't auditioned many high end speakers so I'm far from an authority.

Size of the listening room... well I'm not quite sure of that yet. Where I want to put them is in the bottom of the launch control center of my missile silo (sometimes wish I were joking). It's 1000' square ft and a circle of concrete with 13' steel ceilings. Basically a huge mess from an audio perspective. The place would need some serious treatments but it would be a pretty nice man cave afterwards.

Size of the cabinets aren't much of a concern. Have plenty of room.

What I was hoping for was a few suggestions and 30 people agreeing completely. But this is an Internet forum and I know that won't happen. :)

Keep it coming... or at least votes for stuff that's been posted. Thanks!

GT
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I would take a pair of the aformentioned Statements, SS8s, and CBT36s over any pair of Wilsons, ever.
 
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rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
Getting a perfect fit and finish on a DIY project will require meticulous, tedious effort. Sounds like you've got enough on your plate with building and installing acoustic treatments anyway, so my vote is for the Jim Salk speakers.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I would take a pair of the aformentioned Statements, SS8s, and CBT36s over any pair of Wilsons, ever.
^^^ +100 times

I have heard Wilson Maxx (100k) and Watt Puppy (25k) and neither were particularly impressive.

That said I have heard in person Jim Salk's SoundScape 8 and I was simply floored. It's by far the most impressive speaker in both sound and visual aspects I have ever seen or heard.
If I had the money I would not think twice which one to get.
Search this site for AH-GTG 2012 report for photos
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Just letting everyone know that I'm reading each reply and learning as I go.

I am fine with commissioning a build or buying outright. As a comparison, I've looked at used Wilson Audio Alexandrias in the past. Now used they are still in the $45k range which is outside of my budget right now. Not looking to start a debate on Wilson Audio etc but when I listened to them I was astonished. Now I'll freely admit that I haven't auditioned many high end speakers so I'm far from an authority.

Size of the listening room... well I'm not quite sure of that yet. Where I want to put them is in the bottom of the launch control center of my missile silo (sometimes wish I were joking). It's 1000' square ft and a circle of concrete with 13' steel ceilings. Basically a huge mess from an audio perspective. The place would need some serious treatments but it would be a pretty nice man cave afterwards.

Size of the cabinets aren't much of a concern. Have plenty of room.

What I was hoping for was a few suggestions and 30 people agreeing completely. But this is an Internet forum and I know that won't happen. :)

Keep it coming... or at least votes for stuff that's been posted. Thanks!

GT

Since you don't HAVE to build the speaker, I have to agree with everyone else, get together Jim Salk / Dennis Murphy and let them tell you what to do in your space..

Do you have pictures of the silo?

Out of curiosity were you one Ferrarichat a few years back, I remember a guy on there that had a missile silo and a 308 or 348?
 
G

GTHill

Audioholic
Since you don't HAVE to build the speaker, I have to agree with everyone else, get together Jim Salk / Dennis Murphy and let them tell you what to do in your space..

Do you have pictures of the silo?

Out of curiosity were you one Ferrarichat a few years back, I remember a guy on there that had a missile silo and a 308 or 348?
Yeah, that's me. Still at it but sold the 328 about 5 years ago now. The thread on FChat is still alive and kicking but now I have a container home (under construction) on top of the silo opening. Figured I'd put weird on top of weird and see what happened. :)

It's hard to get a sense of the silo from pics but I'll find some and post.

GT
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Yeah, that's me. Still at it but sold the 328 about 5 years ago now. The thread on FChat is still alive and kicking but now I have a container home (under construction) on top of the silo opening. Figured I'd put weird on top of weird and see what happened. :)

It's hard to get a sense of the silo from pics but I'll find some and post.

GT
Awesome, I haven't been on that site in years, I had a mid 90s 355 for about a year then fell in love with a 430 coupe one day when we were in Florida so traded "up", after a while of not driving it due to weather and comfort I sold it... I wish I kept the 355 I started with, it was affordable and fun to drive... Now I did a 360 degree turnaround, my collection consists of a 32 ford vicky hot rod {fuel injected, a/c,disc brake show car} and a 1970 Coronet RT convertible, but that can change at any time, if I move somewhere with flat roads, good weather, and no pot holes I would consider another one {convertible}...
 
G

GTHill

Audioholic
Thanks again everyone. I was on a business trip this week but will give Jim Salk a call next week. I see there are options higher than SS8. I have a feeling I'll end up upselling myself. :)

GT
 
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