Need help with onkyo TX RZ-730

D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
hey guys looks like my Anthem AVM 60 will need to be sent in

The only backup I have is the onkyo

The Onkyo preouts are rated to 1V/470Ω

The Anthem MVA 525 says it needs 1.5V to reach full output

The speakers on my front 3 are the RBH SV831R. 4ohm nominal

Can anyone tell me especially if they ever used this onkyo reciever if it can be used with that amp?

I really don't want to clip those speakers

Thanks Dan
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Well perhaps it doesn't quite get there, but you can still use it, perhaps a bit less output. Hook it up, calibrate it and see what ya think, doubt it would be too far off in any case. Those nominal preout levels don't tell you much otoh.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Ok
Well perhaps it doesn't quite get there, but you can still use it, perhaps a bit less output. Hook it up, calibrate it and see what ya think, doubt it would be too far off in any case. Those nominal preout levels don't tell you much otoh.
Ok thanks Lovin. I'll be careful with the volume then

Just waiting on Anthem to respond back for final troubleshooting I don't think it's fixable tho

So once I box up and send in the Anthem I will hook it up

Thank you!!!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Ok

Ok thanks Lovin. I'll be careful with the volume then

Just waiting on Anthem to respond back for final troubleshooting I don't think it's fixable tho

So once I box up and send in the Anthem I will hook it up

Thank you!!!
Careful? Why? It won't be all that different when calibrated....just if the output is on the shy side your amp won't be able to be used fully (but I suspect the Onkyo is more than capable of 1.5V), but at these differences not by much in any case (I'll leave the math to @PENG :) ). So the dealer wasn't able to resolve your odd sounds in the various channels? Dang.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Careful? Why? It won't be all that different when calibrated....just if the output is on the shy side your amp won't be able to be used fully (but I suspect the Onkyo is more than capable of 1.5V), but at these differences not by much in any case (I'll leave the math to @PENG :) ). So the dealer wasn't able to resolve your odd sounds in the various channels? Dang.
Well hed have to come out and that's a charge so I'd rather work with Anthem on it.

I mean I checked all the cables and wiring so that's all hed be doing. If it's a hardware or coding issue Anthems my best shot.

But it will probably be a minute before they get back to me with COVID going on right now
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Careful? Why? It won't be all that different when calibrated....just if the output is on the shy side your amp won't be able to be used fully (but I suspect the Onkyo is more than capable of 1.5V), but at these differences not by much in any case (I'll leave the math to @PENG :) ). So the dealer wasn't able to resolve your odd sounds in the various channels? Dang.
I'm paranoid because I just bought these speakers Lol
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm paranoid because I just bought these speakers Lol
I agreed you should play it safe. In terms of the math take a look of the following, based on the MCA amp's 29 dB voltage gain:

Pre out at 1.1 V, the MCA output will be at 120 W into 8 Ohms, or 240 W into 4 Ohms. The 4 Ohm output is irrelevant here because you are only using the Onkyo as a preamp. I am using W instead of V only because people relate to W better, for power amps anyway. Also, using W would make it easier to understand how the power amp could potentially result in increased distortions at the preamp output, though again, ignore the 4 Ohm output but focus on the 8 Ohm output because our concern for the preamp output is voltage, not current.

Based on the last two Onkyo AVRs S&V measured, my best guess is that the TX-RZ730's power amps would be clipping at or below 120 W into 8 Ohms so if you want to be sure the MCA525 stays below THD=0.1% (that is, well into clipping), then you should try to turn the volume low enough so it wouldn't exceed 1.1 V.

Your speaker's sensitivity is 93 dB, so 1.1 V from the Onkyo will get you 240 W of "clean" power; and that means near reference level from 15 ft based on two speakers.

Even if you do get some occasionally clipping from some exceptionally high peaks, it's not going to damage the RBH's tweeter because of the short duration.

If you want to have more assurance, or warning, you should contact RBH, and Onkyo as well.

Another thing you can do it, if you have a decent multimeter, you can measure the pre out voltage when playing the internal test tone. Just keep increase the volume until the meter shows 1 V. Then you can measure the SPL from you MLP with volume at 1V. If you get 105 dB C weighting slow, then you know you are good for reference level.

So the bottom line is, 1 V is very likely all you need. If that's the case then don't worry about clipping, just sit back and enjoy while waiting for the return of the AVM.
 
Last edited:
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
I agreed you should play it safe. In terms of the math take a look of the following, based on the MCA amp's 29 dB voltage gain:

Pre out at 1.1 V, the MCA output will be at 120 W into 8 Ohms, or 240 W into 4 Ohms. The 4 Ohm output is irrelevant here because you are only using the Onkyo as a preamp. I am using W instead of V only because people relate to W better, for power amps anyway. Also, using W would make it easier to understand how the power amp could potentially result in increased distortions at the preamp output, though again, ignore the 4 Ohm output but focus on the 8 Ohm output because our concern for the preamp output is voltage, not current.

Based on the last two Onkyo AVRs S&V measured, my best guess is that the TX-RZ730's power amps would be clipping at or below 120 W into 8 Ohms so if you want to be sure the MCA525 stays below THD=0.1% (that is, well into clipping), then you should try to turn the volume low enough so it wouldn't exceed 1.1 V.

Your speaker's sensitivity is 93 dB, so 1.1 V from the Onkyo will get you 240 W of "clean" power; and that means near reference level from 15 ft based on two speakers.

Even if you do get some occasionally clipping from some exceptionally high peaks, it's not going to damage the RBH's tweeter because of the short duration.

If you want to have more assurance, or warning, you should contact RBH, and Onkyo as well.

Another thing you can do it, if you have a decent multimeter, you can measure the pre out voltage when playing the internal test tone. Just keep increase the volume until the meter shows 1 V. Then you can measure the SPL from you MLP with volume at 1V. If you get 105 dB C weighting slow, then you know you are good for reference level.

So the bottom line is, 1 V is very likely all you need. If that's the case then don't worry about clipping, just sit back and enjoy while waiting for the return of the AVM.
Hey thanks so much for the feedback PENG. I would be careful but thanks to my awesome dealer I love that dude I was able to get my hands on a Yamaha cx-A5200. So I'm still waiting for Anthem to get back to me so we can troubleshoot. I got a feeling it's going to be awhile with COVID and the new AVM70 being out keeping there hands full

By that time the Yamaha should get here so if we cant fix it then I'll ship in the Anthem try out the Yamaha while it's gone whichever one I like better stays and I'll flip the other or repurpose it somewhere else
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
I agreed you should play it safe. In terms of the math take a look of the following, based on the MCA amp's 29 dB voltage gain:

Pre out at 1.1 V, the MCA output will be at 120 W into 8 Ohms, or 240 W into 4 Ohms. The 4 Ohm output is irrelevant here because you are only using the Onkyo as a preamp. I am using W instead of V only because people relate to W better, for power amps anyway. Also, using W would make it easier to understand how the power amp could potentially result in increased distortions at the preamp output, though again, ignore the 4 Ohm output but focus on the 8 Ohm output because our concern for the preamp output is voltage, not current.

Based on the last two Onkyo AVRs S&V measured, my best guess is that the TX-RZ730's power amps would be clipping at or below 120 W into 8 Ohms so if you want to be sure the MCA525 stays below THD=0.1% (that is, well into clipping), then you should try to turn the volume low enough so it wouldn't exceed 1.1 V.

Your speaker's sensitivity is 93 dB, so 1.1 V from the Onkyo will get you 240 W of "clean" power; and that means near reference level from 15 ft based on two speakers.

Even if you do get some occasionally clipping from some exceptionally high peaks, it's not going to damage the RBH's tweeter because of the short duration.

If you want to have more assurance, or warning, you should contact RBH, and Onkyo as well.

Another thing you can do it, if you have a decent multimeter, you can measure the pre out voltage when playing the internal test tone. Just keep increase the volume until the meter shows 1 V. Then you can measure the SPL from you MLP with volume at 1V. If you get 105 dB C weighting slow, then you know you are good for reference level.

So the bottom line is, 1 V is very likely all you need. If that's the case then don't worry about clipping, just sit back and enjoy while waiting for the return of the AVM.
I'm going to have to send it on I've been working with the fellas on AVS and nothing I've tried has worked so I'm pretty sure it's busted
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hey thanks so much for the feedback PENG. I would be careful but thanks to my awesome dealer I love that dude I was able to get my hands on a Yamaha cx-A5200. So I'm still waiting for Anthem to get back to me so we can troubleshoot. I got a feeling it's going to be awhile with COVID and the new AVM70 being out keeping there hands full

By that time the Yamaha should get here so if we cant fix it then I'll ship in the Anthem try out the Yamaha while it's gone whichever one I like better stays and I'll flip the other or repurpose it somewhere else
Is the 5200 on loan or you bought it? Anyway, remember with that one you get lower THD+N if you use RCAs, just keep the interconnects shorter than say 3 meters if you do.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Is the 5200 on loan or you bought it? Anyway, remember with that one you get lower THD+N if you use RCAs, just keep the interconnects shorter than say 3 meters if you do.
Bought it. I believe you get lower THD+N with RCA's in your front 3 right? Because of the issue with the volume control and how it affects the front channels
From what I understand it's not audible just not as state of the art as Yamaha normally pulls off
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Is the 5200 on loan or you bought it? Anyway, remember with that one you get lower THD+N if you use RCAs, just keep the interconnects shorter than say 3 meters if you do.
Honestly PENG after the way that AVM 60 measured over at ASR I don't think it matters how the Yamaha is hooked up. Either way it's gotta be better then that.
:D
Unless that was just a defective unit
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Honestly PENG after the way that AVM 60 measured over at ASR I don't think it matters how the Yamaha is hooked up. Either way it's gotta be better then that.
:D
Unless that was just a defective unit
I think you probably know that apparently Anthem sent Amir their own piece and Amir has completed the test, just waiting for Anthem's response before publishing. For similar situation in the past, Amir would wait out of courtesy, but after waiting long enough he would go ahead and published the results anyway. So it could be any day now.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Wow audible differences based on measurements....waiting with popcorn.
PENG and most of us non-golden-ears have said for years that these measurements don’t make any AUDIBLE difference in the real world.

Without these measurements, I guess most audiophiles would have to find something else to talk about. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Without these measurements, I guess most audiophiles would have to find something else to talk about. :D
Agreed, except audiophiles would then have free range or spreading the existence of a infinite range of sound signatures from 0 degree K cool to 5778 degree K sun warm.:D:D:D, and/or from lemon sour and sugar sweet. Objectivists, scientist, engineers would have nothing to refer to to counter such silly illogical things.

On a more serious note, I understand Dan's concerns. The guy spent good money on those beautify RBH towers, so I think he is more concern about "clipping" that may damage the tweeters than just audible distortions (that too I assume but more about damages..).
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Agreed, except audiophiles would then have free range or spreading the existence of a infinite range of sound signatures from 0 degree K cool to 5778 degree K sun warm.:D:D:D, and/or from lemon sour and sugar sweet. Objectivists, scientist, engineers would have nothing to refer to to counter such silly illogical things.

On a more serious note, I understand Dan's concerns. The guy spent good money on those beautify RBH towers, so I think he is more concern about "clipping" that may damage the tweeters than just audible distortions (that too I assume but more about damages..).
Yeah most people would not hook up an entry Onkyo AVR to a high-end flagship speaker. :D

My flagship RBH SVT towers are hooked up to my flagship Yamaha RX-A3080 AVR. ;)
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Field Marshall
Yeah most people would not hook up an entry Onkyo AVR to a high-end flagship speaker. :D

My flagship RBH SVT towers are hooked up to my flagship Yamaha RX-A3080 AVR. ;)
You suggests that high-end flagship speakers are so badly designed that they need high-end (i.e. expensive) amplifiers? :p
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Wow audible differences based on measurements....waiting with popcorn.
View attachment 47337
Yeah I agree with you one thing I do like about Amirs site and he is clear about it. He isn't claiming what he measures is audible. He's testing more for engineering competency. I think people miss that point

I don't think that test on the Anthem is audible but it did show some issues with the engineering. Which may be why my units acting all wonky right now.

Another big thing I've learned from his site is some of these prepros are literally just taking out the amps of the avrs and slapping in the pre pro parts and not really doing a good job designing them when they do this. Which is why some issues come up when you test them

It's less about audibility to me and more about quality of engineering. If I'm going to drop money at that level I at least want the build to be high quality. And a lot of these clearly aren't. They used to be but they are not anymore.

Genes review showed the Yamaha to be very well designed. The 2 front channels are inaudible even with the mistake but still it's way better designed then the Anthem and that means something to me

Will I be able to hear a sound difference between the 2? Probably not. But when I'm spending less money on the Yamaha and it's designed better from an engineering standpoint then the Anthem that means something to me

Better engineered means usually better reliability in the long run.
 

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