Need help with first HT setup (~$7k budget)

[mank311]

Hey all,

I've been researching for the better part of 6 months and can't seem to pull the trigger. I've read numerous reviews and have read alot of posts/reviews on what to do and I keep changing my mind, my budget is around $7k.

Room size: 15' x 20'

Current equipment(Basement):
H/K AVR430
JBL ND310 (L/R)
Klipsch RC-25 (Center)
Polk Sub PSW202
PS3 for Blu-ray / DVD / Streaming

Living Room:
Old College Reciever... (H/K will move upstairs)
Polk LSi9 (L/R)

I've been going back on forth on if it's better spend spend extra $$ on pre/pro or the speakers. I'd like to use the extra $600 savings going with the Marantz but if spending it on the speakers will be lost because of the pre/pro it's not worth it. Here's the components I've been looking at:

Pre/Pro:
Onkyo PR-SC5508 ($2,199.00) (mostly for the Audyssey MultEQ XT32)
or
Marantz AV7005 ($1,599.00) (only has the Audyssey MultEQ XT)

Amp:
Emotiva XPA-5 ($899.00)

Speakers Option 1:
AperionAudio Verus Grande XD ($3,994.00)
Verus Grande Towers x2
Verus Grande Center
Verus Grand Bookshelf x2
Bravus IIa 12D Sub (maybe a second)

Speaker Option 2:
KEF Q900 x2 (L/R) ($899.00 per)
KEF Q600c Center ($649.99)
Rythmik F12 x2 ($874.00 per)
Use existing Polk LSi9 for surrounds ($0.00)

Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thanks!

 

[templemaners]

I've been going back on forth on if it's better spend spend extra $$ on pre/pro or the speakers

Speakers, no doubt.

If you're not wedded to a getting a pre/pro, I would look at getting a Denon 4311. Some members have bought them for around $1300-1500.

Also, if you're going to be spending $7K or so, make sure part of that budget is for 2 subs, not one.

Lastly, of the two options you have listed for speakers, I like #2 w/the KEF's better. And I don't see why you couldn't use your LSi9's for surround for the time being - it would give you more to allocate to the front 3 speakers.

What sort of content do you listen to? Movies, music, games (percent terms)?

 

[mank311]

Speakers, no doubt.

Speakers it is

I'd be using it for movies 80% of the time, the rest split between games/music.

I'm not tied to a pre/pro by any means, I wanted to make sure I had enough power for the speakers so I knew I wanted an amp. I naturally just moved towards the pre-pro, definately liking the fact the 4311ci has Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and a lower cost.

In this scenario I'm guessing to use the 4311ci in preamp mode with the XPA-5, will I loose much by not using XLR interconnects?

 

[zieglj01]

I like speaker option #2 - and, I would not spend money on a pre-pro.

 

[templemaners]

In this scenario I'm guessing to use the 4311ci in preamp mode with the XPA-5, will I lose much by not using XLR interconnects?

No, you won't lose anything using RCA connections over XLR (other than bragging rights to your friends about having XLR cables).

If you do decide to get a 4311, you could always get an XPA-3 and use the 4311 to power your surrounds. I highly doubt that the receiver would get taxed powering just 2 surrounds (unless you do something like listen to multi-channel stereo at very high levels)

Another option to consider is getting a two channel pro audio amp for your L/R speakers. There are a number of happy owners that purchased Crown XLS DriveCore amps:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/79978-crown-xls-drivecore-thread.html

If you can decide on what you want to do receiver/pre-pro/amp wise, you can focus on researching the most important part - the speakers/subs.

Another question for you - what sort of listening levels do you usually listen at? Higher SPL levels or larger distances from the screen to where you sit would warrant looking into higher efficiency speakers. And for movies, is it more well rounded content, or Hollywood blockbuster type flicks? If it's the latter, you will want to look at bigger/more powerful subwoofers, like the bigger ported SVS's or ported Rythmiks.

Keep in mind, if you say "I'm more into the arthouse type of movies" we won't make fun.

Lastly, any WAF (wife acceptance factor) issues we should know about? How high on the list are speaker asethetics? All that will help us give you better recommendations on which ones you should try out/audition.

 

[zieglj01]

Speakers it is

In this scenario I'm guessing to use the 4311ci in preamp mode with the XPA-5, will I loose much by not using XLR interconnects?

The Denon is 140 watts per channel, I would not spend that much
on a receiver and then buy a 5 channel amp. I would test the Denon,
and if you want an Amp, then buy a 3 channel one - the rear cannels
will be OK.

If you really want an Amp - then maybe buy a cheaper receiver with
the pre-outs.

 

[cpp]

The Denon is 140 watts per channel, I would not spend that much
on a receiver and then buy a 5 channel amp. I would test the Denon,
and if you want an Amp, then buy a 3 channel one - the rear cannels
will be OK.

If you really want an Amp - then maybe buy a cheaper receiver with
the pre-outs.

agree with zieglj01. I have the 4311 and I HAD a ATI amp hooked up to it. Found out, I just didn't need the ATI, so it went to a 2 chl room. The 4311 did everything I wanted. Try it first before you add an external amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would call Electronics Expo. They were selling the Denon 4311 brand new for ~ $1225 delivered.

Personally I would just get the Denon 3312:

The AVR-3312CI’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 122.9 watts and 1 percent distortion at 143.3 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 202.0 watts and 1 percent distortion at 225.5 watts.

There was no multichannel input to measure. THD+N from the CD input to the speaker output was less than 0.005 percent at 1 kHz when driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load. Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –77.40 dB left to right and –77.93 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –108.68 dBrA.

With 225wpc into 4ohms x 2ch, I wouldn't even get an amp. Save the money. Just make sure you keep the speaker channel level at 0.0 dB or higher on the Denon. Any Denon. They tend to keep the preamp voltage low. So keep the speaker channel level at 0.0dB or higher should work great. No need for amps.

If you feel you must have an amp just because you like to throw money away (which I am 100% against), save some money and get the ATI AT1807. ATI make amps for Lexicon, Cary Audio, among others.

Amazon was selling the 3312 for $550 delivered 2 weeks ago. Call Electronics Expo and see if they will match that price from Amazon.

Onecall quoted the price for the KEF Q600c @ $450 each & Q900 @ ~ $1,350/pr delivered.
Heck, they should give you a great deal if you buy Q900 L/R, Q600 C, & Q100 Surrounds!

Another idea is the Revel Concerta line. The Revel F12 towers are around $1260/pr delivered. Get the matching Center and Surrounds.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Denon is 140 watts per channel, I would not spend that much
on a receiver and then buy a 5 channel amp. I would test the Denon,
and if you want an Amp, then buy a 3 channel one - the rear cannels
will be OK.

If you really want an Amp - then maybe buy a cheaper receiver with
the pre-outs.

agree with zieglj01. I have the 4311 and I HAD a ATI amp hooked up to it. Found out, I just didn't need the ATI, so it went to a 2 chl room. The 4311 did everything I wanted. Try it first before you add an external amp.

Dang, what is this? We're all recommending against amps? What is the world coming to?

But seriously, keep that speaker channel level above 0.0 dB in the Denon Manual Speaker setup.

 

[lsiberian]

Speakers it is

I'd be using it for movies 80% of the time, the rest split between games/music.

I'm not tied to a pre/pro by any means, I wanted to make sure I had enough power for the speakers so I knew I wanted an amp. I naturally just moved towards the pre-pro, definately liking the fact the 4311ci has Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and a lower cost.

In this scenario I'm guessing to use the 4311ci in preamp mode with the XPA-5, will I loose much by not using XLR interconnects?

For an almost pure home theater I suggest a powerful sub with 90db/m or higher sensitivity speakers coupled with a reasonable receivers(<1k in most cases)

That Bravus is definitely promising because it uses P-Rs. P-Rs eliminate port compression(reduce distortion) and reduce box size in ported designs(easier to move). The drawback is they do roll-off below tuning more quickly and reduce the budget for the driver itself. 1" HDF means the box is strong and a 23hz cutoff will give you plenty down low.

If you listen at typical levels the Versus Grand will be fine. If you listen at THX reference levels I suggest a higher sensitivity speaker. JTRs are the safe bet for the loud crowd. 90db/m is probably a good guideline for the typical room. Remember you lose 3 db for every meter you sit away from the speaker and you gain 3db for every time you double wattage.

64watts is around your typical receiver output, 128 watts is around your typical beast receiver output and 256 watts is around your typical external amps.

60db is typical listening level with 95 db peak(Normal TV)

75db is THX reference with 105 db peak(Good Cinema Loud)

 

[templemaners]

Dang, what is this? We're all recommending against amps? What is the world coming to?

I don't think it's that... it's just if you have a good receiver, like a 4311, any amp purchase can be toned back to 2 or 3 channels vs. 7 (unless you really got funds to spend).

Besides, if that's toned back, you can put more in speakers/subs.

 

[cpp]

Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
Dang, what is this? We're all recommending against amps? What is the world coming to?

not really just being realistic Nothing like some nice bookends , After I ordered the ATI2003 as a refrub a little while ago i retired my ATI1802 to the cabinet holding up some books.

I don't think it's that... it's just if you have a good receiver, like a 4311, any amp purchase can be toned back to 2 or 3 channels vs. 7 (unless you really got funds to spend).

Besides, if that's toned back, you can put more in speakers/subs.

Agree if you don't need the external amp, upgrade your speakers. You can always buy an amp later on

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

not really just being realistic Nothing like some nice bookends , After I ordered the ATI2003 as a refrub a little while ago i retired my ATI1802 to the cabinet holding up some books.

I couldn't do that. I would have to buy more speakers and AVR just to utilize the extra ATI amp.

Or buy 2 unpowered subs for the AT1802.

 

[cpp]

I couldn't do that. I would have to buy more speakers and AVR just to utilize the extra ATI amp.

Or buy 2 unpowered subs for the AT1802.

yep you would but I only have so much usable space and since I can only listen to one system at a time after all "I'm only Human"

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

yep you would but I only have so much usable space and since I can only listen to one system at a time after all "I'm only Human"

You know, I do have a Denon AVR-990 in my closet. And you know what that means.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

$7K audio system.

Philharmonic-1 towers @ $800 each x 5 = $4,000.

Rythmik FV12 subwoofers @ $550 each x 2 = $1,100.

Denon AVR-4311CI @ $1,225.

And when there is a party, use the Multichannel Stereo music mode to play all five speakers @ 95dB. I bet that will get pretty loud.

 

[mank311]

Another question for you - what sort of listening levels do you usually listen at? Higher SPL levels or larger distances from the screen to where you sit would warrant looking into higher efficiency speakers. And for movies, is it more well rounded content, or Hollywood blockbuster type flicks?
Lastly, any WAF (wife acceptance factor) issues we should know about? How high on the list are speaker asethetics? All that will help us give you better recommendations on which ones you should try out/audition.

I watch a wide range of movies but mostly sci/fi, action and comedy, no arthouse movies

While watching movies I like to listen at a fairly high level (maybe just a little quiter than if I was at a theater). Seating is around 9 ft away from the screen. If people are over then usually crank up the music.

I'm lucky I don't have to worry about any WAF issues, just setting up my bacheleor pad.

You mentioned using a pro audio amp (Crown XLS DriveCore), what is the benefit of using a pro audio amp vs one designed for home theaters?

Philharmonic-1 towers @ $800 each x 5 = $4,000.

Rythmik FV12 subwoofers @ $550 each x 2 = $1,100.

I haven't heard the Philharmonic before, how would they compare to the Kef Q900s?

I also see you mentioned the FV12s which I was looking at but the last few days I've been doing alot of research on the subs. Starting to lean towards 15s to get the lower response since I watch mostly movies, but not sure if going from 2 12s to 2 ported 15s is needed. I've read alot of people really like the Rythmik FV15 ported subs but at ~2200 for 2 without shipping the cost goes up quick. Have been looking at the HSU VTF-15H x2 which would only be ~1700 for 2 without shipping. For cost reasons it comes down to 2 Rythmik FV12s vs 2 HSU VTF-15Hs.

Thanks everyone for the advice, here's what I'm currently looking at now (holding off on an amp for now to see how the Denon handles):

Denon 4311c - $1500
Kef Q900 x2 (L/R) - $1,800
Kef Q600c (Center) - $650
Kef Q800dc x2 (L/R Surround) - $800
HSU Research VTF-15H DualDrive Package - $1700

 

[shadyJ]

If it were me, I would go for the KEF/Hsu system. The Philharmonics look great, but I think the KEFs would have a more dynamic range and more headroom. Same thing with the subs, the FV12 is a good sub, but it won't come close to the output of the VTF15h. Anyway, if I were to get Rythmik subs on your budget, I would go for some F15s, they would have roughly the same amount of output as the FV12 (except at the FV12's tuning point) and likely sound a bit sharper due to their sealed design. But that's beside the point since last I heard the FV12s are not available anyway, and aren't expected to be available for awhile, they are undergoing redesign. I think between these systems, if you are in a large room, definitely get what has the greatest headroom, but if you are in a medium to small room or you tend to only listen at modest volumes, it won't matter as much.

 

[zieglj01]

Thanks everyone for the advice, here's what I'm currently looking at now (holding off on an amp for now to see how the Denon handles):

Denon 4311c - $1500
Kef Q900 x2 (L/R) - $1,800
Kef Q600c (Center) - $650
Kef Q800dc x2 (L/R Surround) - $800
HSU Research VTF-15H DualDrive Package - $1700

Looks nice

 

[templemaners]

You mentioned using a pro audio amp (Crown XLS DriveCore), what is the benefit of using a pro audio amp vs one designed for home theaters?

Benefits: More power for not a lot of coin (pro-audio is pretty competitive). Basically they score high on the watts/$ scale compared to a lot of HT amps. I'm always a big fan of high performance relative to the costs.

Downsides: Some models have loud fans that can be distracting, although, I think a few users in the XLS thread I linked to said the fans are relatively quiet unless you get 6"-12" away. The Yamaha P series amps are also known for being quiet.

You would also want to be aware of what sort of connections are used input and output wise. Something with say, Speakon outputs, would be a bit of a hassle to get adapters for just to connect to your speakers.

BTW, I like the speaker/sub/receiver package you put together.