Need Help for Dad's present

[GranteedEV]

The key to "musical" is low distortion, multiples (2+) spread throughout the room, quick decay, strong bracing, flat in-room response, and mains that can blend and keep up from 80hz to 300hz without losing composure. High output and Musical do not really conflict with each other either. I find larger drivers (15"/18") in appropriately damped boxes to be more ideal l because they simply need to do a lot less work for the same amount of bass. Too small a box for the driver, too sharp an EQ, or too high a vent tuning and you may hear some artifacts.

Rythmik servo subs are widely considered some of the lowest distortion commercial subs out there. You basically can't go wrong with a Rythmik. IMO Paradigm subs are rather overpriced for the performance they give. Obviously used/clearouts change that cost aspect, but I still would go with a Rythmik or some other internet based alternatives. Don't get too caught up in Sealed vs Vented type discussions either - they simply don't factor in actual frequency response.

 

[jagust1]

The key to "musical" is low distortion, multiples (2+) spread throughout the room, quick decay, strong bracing, flat in-room response, and mains that can blend and keep up from 80hz to 300hz without losing composure. High output and Musical do not really conflict with each other either. I find larger drivers (15"/18") in appropriately damped boxes to be more ideal l because they simply need to do a lot less work for the same amount of bass. Too small a box for the driver, too sharp an EQ, or too high a vent tuning and you may hear some artifacts.

Rythmik servo subs are widely considered some of the lowest distortion commercial subs out there. You basically can't go wrong with a Rythmik. IMO Paradigm subs are rather overpriced for the performance they give. Obviously used/clearouts change that cost aspect, but I still would go with a Rythmik or some other internet based alternatives. Don't get too caught up in Sealed vs Vented type discussions either - they simply don't factor in actual frequency response.

So do you think the Outlaw would be good sub in a musical aspect or would you say its more HT. And I'll have to check out rythmik...

 

[GranteedEV]

So do you think the Outlaw would be good sub in a musical aspect or would you say its more HT. And I'll have to check out rythmik...

I don't want to downplay the outlaw, as I'm sure it's a great sub and a HSU design as far as I know, but it does seem to be tuned a bit for max output. I think a lower tuned sub (18hz or lower with a shallow rolloff towards tuning) is probably a better idea.

With that said I really don't know a thing about the Outlaw and people who have heard the subwoofer are flat out more qualified to comment on it. It definitely seems like an amazing deal dollar for dollar and often that's the best indicator that you're getting the best sound quality because the drivers, enclosures, and amps used will just be flat out better.

Like I said, the room interaction can be 90% of the sound of bass assuming adequate design. The other 10% is the fact that just one of mine can do 120+ db when called for =P

 

[sholling]

I think we're confusing the heck out of this poor guy! He's looking for a good quality < $600 (delivered) sub for his dad. With 50:50 music/movie usage in a 2800cuft room that's open to the house. An $800 12" Rythmik won't cut it in a room that size even if it were in budget which it's not. I know that because I had a discussion with the owner when I was looking for a sub for my 3000cuft bedroom.

The problem with a sealed sub (I own 2) is that they don't have the 20hz impact of a ported sub and the bang for the buck isn't there to stay within the OP's budget. It takes a big honking amp to get close to the same level of output and low frequencies tend to start sounding compressed at high volumes and it often takes twice as many subs to reach the same 20hz output. Sealed sound great for music but so do a lot of ported subs. Full disclosure I've heard Hsu subs but not their Outlaw equivalents, however Hsu builds a fine subwoofer. And Rythmik makes great subs if you have twice the money for the same level of output from their sealed subs. I happen to like both styles of sub but for dual use I prefer a ported sub.

Good quality subs that fit the budget and room are the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus or Ex; Hsu's VTF-2 ($13 over budget); Elemental Designs' A3-300. Take your pick but for the money I'd get the EX. Since it's going to sit on a tile floor I'd place whatever you buy on an isolation pad. The down-firing EX is huge and will need an Auralex Great Gramma, the smaller down-firing LFM-1 Plus or HSU VTF-2 can probably get away with a slightly smaller Gamma, and I'd just use some anti-vibration pads like 4 of these with the front-firing eD.

BTW the LFM-1EX can be be tuned to 16hz or 22hz, the eD has a native 18hz tuning, and the VTF-2 can be turned to 18 or 25hz. LFM-1 EX specs below:

Driver Type: Down Firing, 12" Long-throw Woofer
Ports: Dual
Amplifier Power Rating: 350WRMS; 1300W peak
Frequency Response:
one port plugged: 16Hz. -180Hz. +/- 2 dB
no ports plugged: 22Hz. -180Hz. +/- 2 dB

 

[shadyJ]

The Outlaw LFM-1 EX, much like it's Hsu couterparts, have excellent sound quality. Great for music and movies. Here is a third party measurement of it's Hsu twin's FR graph:

The Outlaw should share a similarly flat frequency response, being nearly identical to the above graphed sub (the Hsu VTF3 mk3) and also designed by Dr. Hsu. While a sealed sub might get you slightly less overhang, it probably won't get you as flat of a FR and it definitely won't get you the dynamic response of the equivalently priced Outlaw subs, and both those qualities are important for music playback as well, unless you only ever listen at low volumes. If your father does listen to music at modest volumes only, there is no reason to get such a massive sub. I have listened to the LFM-1 EX and other audiophile-grade sealed subs, and the LFM-1 EX is definitely no slouch in the sound quality department. If your father has available space for such a large sub, I am sure he will enjoy it. It is a very tight sub, and not close to boomy or sloppy sounding at all. At it's present price it is a steal.

 

[jagust1]

I think we're confusing the heck out of this poor guy! He's looking for a good quality < $600 (delivered) sub for his dad. With 50:50 music/movie usage in a 2800cuft room that's open to the house. An $800 12" Rythmik won't cut it in a room that size even if it were in budget which it's not. I know that because I had a discussion with the owner when I was looking for a sub for my 3000cuft bedroom.

The problem with a sealed sub (I own 2) is that they don't have the 20hz impact of a ported sub and the bang for the buck isn't there to stay within the OP's budget. It takes a big honking amp to get close to the same level of output and low frequencies tend to start sounding compressed at high volumes and it often takes twice as many subs to reach the same 20hz output. Sealed sound great for music but so do a lot of ported subs. Full disclosure I've heard Hsu subs but not their Outlaw equivalents, however Hsu builds a fine subwoofer. And Rythmik makes great subs if you have twice the money for the same level of output from their sealed subs. I happen to like both styles of sub but for dual use I prefer a ported sub.

Good quality subs that fit the budget and room are the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus or Ex; Hsu's VTF-2 ($13 over budget); Elemental Designs' A3-300. Take your pick but for the money I'd get the EX. Since it's going to sit on a tile floor I'd place whatever you buy on an isolation pad. The down-firing EX is huge and will need an Auralex Great Gramma, the smaller down-firing LFM-1 Plus or HSU VTF-2 can probably get away with a slightly smaller Gamma, and I'd just use some anti-vibration pads like 4 of these with the front-firing eD.

BTW the LFM-1EX can be be tuned to 16hz or 22hz, the eD has a native 18hz tuning, and the VTF-2 can be turned to 18 or 25hz. LFM-1 EX specs below:

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Thanks so much for your input, but what it seems to be is that I should just give my Dad money towards a new sub since you all believe that the subs that would satisfy what he needs is out of my price range.... I feel like if I show him this forum about what we have discussed he will realize that he needs to spend more money.... So maybe you can give me a little more of your time and tell me a few subs that he could buy at let's say $950-$1000 max I think I could talk him into spending another $400 I just want to thank you again and appreciate all your help

 

[kesando]

Thanks so much for your input, but what it seems to be is that I should just give my Dad money towards a new sub since you all believe that the subs that would satisfy what he needs is out of my price range.... I feel like if I show him this forum about what we have discussed he will realize that he needs to spend more money.... So maybe you can give me a little more of your time and tell me a few subs that he could buy at let's say $950-$1000 max I think I could talk him into spending another $400 I just want to thank you again and appreciate all your help

If you father is considering a Paradigm DSP sub, then he cannot go wrong with the Outlaw LFM1-EX. If he is willing to spend closer to $1000, then dual Oultlaw plusses will give him great sound quality, more headroom and smoother in room bass respone than with a single sub. You should also get good bass response down to 20hz with proper placement. He will be more than happy with this setup

 

[lsiberian]

Thanks so much for your input, but what it seems to be is that I should just give my Dad money towards a new sub since you all believe that the subs that would satisfy what he needs is out of my price range.... I feel like if I show him this forum about what we have discussed he will realize that he needs to spend more money.... So maybe you can give me a little more of your time and tell me a few subs that he could buy at let's say $950-$1000 max I think I could talk him into spending another $400 I just want to thank you again and appreciate all your help

I will not recommend a paradigm sub. They make great speakers, but their subs don't match any of the ones mentioned in performance IMO. I think that outlaw will do the trick.