Need Help finding Chopin Piece

obscbyclouds

obscbyclouds

Senior Audioholic
I know there's some real classical music buffs here at AH. I'm looking for a really high quality (DVD-A or SACD if possible), and well performed version of the following:

Chopin: Preludes #15 in D Sharp I've always known it as Raindrops. I have one really badly mastered CD version. I need something better.

Thanks for your help guys! :)
 
obscbyclouds

obscbyclouds

Senior Audioholic
Thanks. Have you heard any of those albums? 40 songs on the album frightens me a bit....
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
I'm not familiar with any of those recordings. I have taken a chance on their recommendations and usually am satisfied.

The recording I have is the Seraphim Classics release with Tzimon Barto on piano. It's okay but I don't have anything to compare it to. It had pretty good dynamic range though.

Jim
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks. Have you heard any of those albums? 40 songs on the album frightens me a bit....
While I have a couple of recordings of the Etudes, I only have one of the preludes. Its a debut recording of Hung-Kuan Chen. I'll go put it on right now, and tell you what I think. I haven't put this on in forever.

Why does 40 songs frighten you? Heh, if they all fit, they can't all be that long. :p The D-flat . . . HUH wait you said D sharp? Something is fishy. Anyways, #15 D-flat is the longest and most ambitious of the bunch according to my liner notes.

I'll be back in a few, or however long it takes. :D

FWIW, If I was to make a blind buy Id check out Martha Argerich I think. Sometimes though the recordings are older and not up to par SQ wise. I see that its only $8.99 at Amazon. I love how classical is so cheap. :D
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Ok, just heard it, and I don't recommend it. I bet you can find better, although like Jim, I have nothing to compare it to.

Im just going to blabber: First of all, my guess is that "raindrop" is some schmaltzy BS moniker put on it by someone else. Maybe a teacher trying to make it interesting for a kid. Very nice, if simple sketch, almost like a mini reverie/notturno trying to be a pseudo-passacaille.

As for performance and/or SQ, the positive was nice dynamic control of the raindrop-ostinato, at least at first. Very soft, Im guessing pedaled, while accompanying harmonies were at louder dynamic. Harder than it sounds. I don't like the SQ. Its most likely the piano, perhaps the player, maybe the mic, I don't know. Lack of clarity for me in the midrange, ok I think there's some mid bloom, but in general I like more distinction. Maybe I've listened to too much baroque. I immediately noticed this with the ornament in what I will call the A section.

A few detecable buzzes from dampers hitting. Could be the hifi gear, I dunno.

That's all I remember for now. Biggest complaint is the clarity, but most particularly because the harmonies in the B section do not come out clearly enough for my taste. Look elsewhere.

I'm probably being too harsh, but I haven't critically listened on another's behalf in a while . . .
 
C

czrtly

Audiophyte
Pollini, Arrau and Tharaud...

Maurizio Pollini recorded them in 1975 with Deutsche Grammophon and are available with the études and the polonaises, they have good sq; his interpretation is one of the reference for this works. Claudio Arrau recorded them on Deca I think? This is also a referrence recording, more solemn aproach than Pollini also has good sound. Alexandre Tharaud recorded them for Harmonia Mundi and is a more recent one. Haven't actually heard this one but have some other recordings by him (piano transcription from Beethoven 5th, also in H.M) and think he's quite impressive, also harmonia mundi takes great care on producing their discs,
HTH

Rivas
 
obscbyclouds

obscbyclouds

Senior Audioholic
Why does 40 songs frighten you? Heh, if they all fit, they can't all be that long. :p The D-flat . . . HUH wait you said D sharp? Something is fishy. Anyways, #15 D-flat is the longest and most ambitious of the bunch according to my liner notes.

I'll be back in a few, or however long it takes. :D
I've noticed from my random classical music buying :D that many of the albums with tons of tracks on them have that "recorded in a tin can" SQ.

I got the song title off my MP3 tag from a rip of such a CD I alluded to earlier, so I'm not 100% about it being accurate (D# vs D-flat). Either way, I suppose I can't go too far wrong for $9 ;)
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Its D-flat, and there's no such thing as D # as far as keys or tonality, if only for difficulty of reading music. E flat is just a lot easier as the enharmonic, because D# represents 9x sharps, or essentially 7 sharps, and 2 double-sharps.

Re the post above, the last Pollini recording I heard was Brahm's 2nd concerto, and the SQ is very, very good. His name is often associated with Chopin, as he said, I just don't have any of that combo. I've owned Arrau discs, but again never with Chopin, but memory is favorable. I'd try Pollini out of those two.

I have a lot of Harmonia Mundi, in great part because I enjoy renaissance music, of which they have a lot of. Usually good SQ, but not always 100%, and usually decently expensive, but not always 100%.

edit: regarding my thought "Maybe a teacher trying to make it interesting for a kid", some teachers need to make anecdotes or visual descriptions to excite some soul from any student. But, from the listening last night, I could see a teacher explaining it as a raindrop to get the techno-musical aspect down for the "raindrop" effect. If I had to guess the raindrop is written as ppp or maybe even pppp. Why I don't think raindrops were the inspiration is because of the lack of complete continuity . . . and I would just think that Chopin could write something to that effect if he wanted. OTOH, piano is pretty hard to maintain an inner line, if you have dramatic extensions, simultaneously, to outer registers. Sure, the arms are long, but the span between fingers is not. :p
 
Last edited:
obscbyclouds

obscbyclouds

Senior Audioholic
Its D-flat, and there's no such thing as D # as far as keys or tonality, if only for difficulty of reading music. E flat is just a lot easier as the enharmonic, because D# represents 9x sharps, or essentially 7 sharps, and 2 double-sharps.
That goes a bit above my head. I know a (tiny) bit about music theory. I understand D# and E-flat are the same note if you were to look at them on a Piano keyboard, but I'm a little lost when you bring up enharmonics and double-sharps :confused:. Are you saying that when your talking about a piece being in a certain key, E-flat is more correct than D#? Thanks for the information though, sorry if I seem a bit....unenlightened? I'm still pretty new to classical music and definately new to theory. :D

FWIW, I believe it was supposed to be D-flat as you mentioned before, I checked the CD liner notes and it also lists D-Flat (most of my googling confirms this).
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
That goes a bit above my head. I know a (tiny) bit about music theory. I understand D# and E-flat are the same note if you were to look at them on a Piano keyboard,
Exactly! Being the same note, just with a different name, is the definition of enharmonic. In more modern music, they sometimes might change notation to the enharmonic to possibly make a funkier key change.

but I'm a little lost when you bring up enharmonics and double-sharps :confused:. Are you saying that when your talking about a piece being in a certain key, E-flat is more correct than D#? Thanks for the information though, sorry if I seem a bit....unenlightened? I'm still pretty new to classical music and definately new to theory. :D
No worries, I think its interesting that you're interested to begin with. Yes, E-flat is more correct . . . That's what we call it. We NEVER call it D#. And with all the changes of key/tonality within any given work: the dominant of E flat is B-flat, but if we used D#, the equivalent dominant is now A#. Oh boy, I just confused you more, nevermind.

Ok. Double sharp is basically raising the note twice. IOW, B natural could be written as A double sharp. They use an "X" to denote this (instead of two sharps or ##). Otoh, there isn't a special denotation for double flatting, and its written as "bb".

EDIT: when I say we never call it D#, I'm talking about key signatures. Sorry if that was confusing. Of course, D# as a note in of itself is very often used in other key signatures, such as E major, B major, a whole plethora of keys.
 
Last edited:
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
because D# represents 9x sharps, or essentially 7 sharps, and 2 double-sharps.
It just occurred to me that this incorrect. I could have said instead that there are 7 sharpings, two of which are double sharps.

9x sharps is correct. But, its 5 sharps + 2 double sharps, which comes out to 9 sharps.

If this all is confusing, then you can better understand why we prefer to read in E flat rather than D# !!!

LOL. Sorry that I am not more accurate in my original explanations. Lot of editing going on.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
A Musical Joke

C, E-flat, and G go into a bar.
The bartender says:"Sorry, but we don't serve minors."
So the E-flat leaves, and the C and the G have an open fifth between them.

After a few drinks, the fifth is diminished and the G is out flat.

Soon, an F comes in and tries to augment the situation, but is not sharp enough.

D comes into the bar and heads straight for the bathroom saying, "Excuse me, I'll just be a second."

Then, an A comes into the bar, but the bartender is not convinced that this relative of C is not a minor.

Then the bartender notices a B-flat hiding at the end of the bar and exclaims, "Get out now. You're the seventh minor I've found in this bar tonight."

The E-flat, not easily deflated, comes back to the bar the next night in a 3-piece suit with nicely shined shoes. The bartender (who used to have a nice corporate job until his company downsized) says, "You're looking sharp tonight, come on in! This could be a major development." This proves to be the case, as the E-flat takes off the suit, and everything else, and stands there au natural.

Eventually, the C sobers up, and realizes in horror that he's under a rest. The C is brought to trial, is found guilty of contributing to the diminution of a minor, and is sentenced to 10 years of DS without Coda at an upscale correctional facility. On appeal, however, the C is found innocent of any wrongdoing, even accidental, and that all accusations to the contrary are bassless.

:p
 
obscbyclouds

obscbyclouds

Senior Audioholic
This is all pretty interesting to me, as I've played guitar (on and off) for about 10 years. I can mess about on the piano (read: keyboard) a little bit as well, but I can't read music. It's pretty limiting when it comes to playing piano, as it takes me a while to figure out chords and notes just from hearing them. I spent the better part of a month a few years back learning Moonlight Sonata just playing from repitition alone. Could never really do it perfectly, but I suppose perfect repetition isn't really making music, right? :p I suppose all this would be easier if I just "manned" up and learned some music theory and to read music. :D

I think I understand what you mean by "Dominant", it's a fifth? A major chord is the root, third and fifth. So up a fifth from E-flat is B-Flat. Whereas if you called it D# you'd end up with A#. I imagine it all works a similar way when talking about keys or tonality of an entire piece? Or am I completed off the beaten path now? :eek:

Anyway, I appreciate the help, and the joke....it's a bit corny, but still funny. The fiance got a kick out of it. :)
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
First to answer your question:

The dominant is the 5th scale degree, or the chord built upon this, in any given key. A "fifth" is just a fifth, and that could be between the 3rd scale degree and 7th scale degree for instance. But, neither the 3rd or 7th are called the dominant in relation to the 1st scale degree.

The 7th scale degree could potentially morph into the dominant of the 3rd scale degree, if we have a key change where the 3rd scale degree is now in fact the new 1st scale degree. If this key change is very short in duration, we call it a tonicization, or if its longer in duration, we call it a modulation. The spelling of the chord built upon the 7th degree in fact has changed, and is no longer a diminished triad, but a major triad when we are in this new key.

If you listen to a Bach fugue for example, all of the contrast, departure/arrival, is more or less purely based on key changes (modulation). His music is most often an example of very fast "harmonic rhythm".

The dominant is the most important chord along with the tonic chord. A lot of the other chords are often passed through in harmonic sequences to arrive at the dominant chord. Once at the dominant, you should very quickly, if not immediately, expect the arrival of the tonic. This is called a cadence (and there are sub-categories of cadences, but for all intents and purposes think of 5th to 1st). Ok, sometimes we have what is called the deceptive cadence, usually ending on the chord built upon the 6th degree for instance.

Ok, I don't want to call this "chord built upon 6th degree" for example. I want to call it vi.

So, the scale degrees we will call I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII. When in a major key, we can use caps or lower case to designate between major and minor (or diminished) triads, so: I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii. vii is actually diminished, but I don't know how to make that tiny circle on the upper right with my computer keyboard to designate it as such.


I will not talk about the dominant 7th at this point in time. However, its movement to I is the most fundamental and common harmonic progression in all of music.

The dominant also often becomes the "new key" in the larger formal sense of many types of works. Now, "Sonata" is one of the most, if not most, ambiguous words there are in music. But, in terms of Beethoven, Mozart, and the like, the nutshell definition could be essentially a passage from tonic to dominant and back home to tonic. (Or relative major perhaps when starting in minor, or even sometimes parallel major, etc). Or in baroque music for example, all of the stylized dance mvmts (assuming major key) in Bach's baroque suites, when using a very typical AABB form, will essentially be tonic-tonic-dominant-dominant.

On the benefits of learning to read music:
You know, one of the easier things about reading music on the keyboard, is that any given note is played only in one darned place. Any same note could be played in multiple different ways on other instruments, OTOH. The biggest benefit of learning to read music is pure efficiency. You get to see everything visually, all at once. It looks crazy at first, but its just like anything else. Matter of familiarity.

On the benefits of learning theory:
To get the basics of "dominant harmony". Essentially, one would should "stress" dissonances with either inflection, volume, etc, and have it resolved during any cadence for example. So, which note of any chord will be particularly inflected? I didn't take the time to talk about dominant 7ths, but that 7th (which you don't know what it is yet, as I haven't explained it) is a particularly good example. That 7th will, 99.9999% of the time, resolve downward, stepwise, to the 3rd built upon the tonic, or I. (i.e. in the key of C major, F resolves down to E). If you don't know this, or at least hear this, then you won't be able to inflect this. I keep saying "inflect" as I can't think of a better word.

One would also want to know if and when they are in a new tonicization or key area. While its up to the artist himself how to inflect the formal aspects of the work, he should at least know when this is happening. Whether small or large scale.

I find romantic works to be easier to understand, generally speaking, in the broad harmonic sense. Usually one is hanging out it in a certain key area for a while. With Bach's incessantly fast harmonic pace, I almost always wrote out the harmonic development on the actual score.

When you can give an overall sense of structure to the piece, it just makes it all more "organic". Even if the audience could not tell you "why" they really liked your performance, they often will. Or hopefully they will!

More random thoughts on classical performance:
Its all in the details. If you played a work exactly the same, except for one most minor improvement (that you did not ignore just to make life easier on your hands), people won't notice. Not any of the non-musicians anyways. Now let's say you make an additional 100 more ultra-subtle improvements for a work of only a 10 minute duration, oh you can bet they will notice. Again, they couldn't tell you exactly why, but they know they enjoyed it a lot. Or hopefully they will!

On repetition:
Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

-John Wooden

I hope that helps. You can feel free to ask more questions. On one hand, you might get more than you bargained for, and OTOH, I might say that you should simply take a course in voice-leading/harmony. Depending on the questions asked. IME, the teacher you get is everything. If you were my kid, for example, I'd be asking around like crazy first before enrolling.

If you get a good teacher, intro voice leading is a LOT of fun. Its like sudoku, or tetris, or physics, or chess, but the great thing is you are making music. The first semester will have you able to write stuff that actually sounds good. Like, whoa, I can write for a choir now... I'm not kidding. The problem is it won't be necessarily very original, but it won't sound bad either. It will sound pleasant, with 4, or more, moving voices. In fact, I wouldn't mind retaking a course to refresh myself on some of the more detailed things. Ah well.

Your sentence has been pardoned:
You no longer must suffer meat's endless DS, and now may enjoy your coda. I realize that this might be overkill for someone who briefly worked on the Moonlight. I don't have the score, and I don't think I own Beethoven's sonatas, but going on what I hear in my head:

The understanding of harmonic mvmt, and departure/dissonance towards arrival/consonace could really round out your interpretation on both the small and large scale.

I think* that if I was teaching this work (and I think I'm actually only familiar with the opening bars, and don't know how it goes on, or ends) I would have the chordal accompaniment be steady. I would allow for certain times of rubato, sparingly, but the most important thing to know is which of those chordal tones have the most impact. That creates the foundation and impetus.

The melody can glide over it. Sometimes its hard to do, while keeping the left hand steady. Not to speak of differing personalities/dynamics. I suppose you can record just the left hand, and during playback try out the right hand as lyrically as you can. This is all guesswork on my part, as I am not a pianist, and again I'm unfamiliar with the work. Come to think of it, I would do vice versa as well, as I'm beginning to suspect that its the l.h. that might be much more important than the melody in this work, the Moonlight. I would bet the harmonic inflections are nearly everything in this work, but that's a guess!

Feast on that! hm. Time to refill my bourbon. And fire up the HT?

-jostenmeat
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
It appears your sentence has only been commuted for a bit:

First to answer your question:

The dominant is the 5th scale degree, or the chord built upon this, in any given key. A "fifth" is just a fifth, and that could be between the 3rd scale degree and 7th scale degree for instance. But, neither the 3rd or 7th are called the dominant in relation to the 1st scale degree.
This does not matter to you now, but I just wanted to say that I used "III" and "VII" as random examples to show you that there is a fifth between them, but that one is not a dominant until III is the new key.

However, in real life scenarios, this is not going to happen as III being major, nor VII being major, when "I" was the original key. Unless, the music has gone into outer space harmonically. I should've used V and its dominant being II, and that is much more likely, or even IV with I being the dominant. I didn't want to use the latter examples, because, I don't know, I thought it might be more confusing by "counting past" vii, so to speak.

Ehh. make sense?:confused:

edit: Moonlight kinda played thru my head some more. The melody switches hand to hand, doesn't it? Then, whichever hand is playing the arpeggiations should take most of your focus for sure. I guess that kinda goes w/o saying since there's a lot more activity there. Meh.
 
Last edited:
S

stevet104

Audiophyte
There is a SACD version of the Preludes at CD Universe. I can't post the link but you get the idea.

cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7359973&style=classical

I hope this helps.

Steve
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top