Need Help defining my taste profile

[Siper1]

As with fine automobiles, wine, bourbons, etc there's never an easy answer to the question around what one's "taste" is. I'm sure what sounds ideal for one person, can invoke varying opinions in others.

I'm looking for opinions/direction on what my "taste" is before I venture into asking for recommendations on which speakers to purchase, etc.

Here's my ask of the community - How would I describe what I prefer to a group of experts when seeking advice?

Here is what I know I like - pardon my lack of proper vernacular:

I prefer an enveloping sound that is "warm", "smooth", and "clean". I don't like the music to be distracting but instead capable of being the topic of discussion or the perfect accompaniment to the moment - (Recording quality aside) Louder to me doesn't equal better - While I will occasionally "turn to the right", most of the time my listening is done at low-mid conversation levels.

A tight tom-tom drum, the detailed sound of the musician's fingers sliding across the strings on a blues guitar recording, clean chords, and life-like vocals are what I enjoy most. Closing my eyes and feeling like I'm in the room on a guitar track, turning up a Justin Timberlake song when my daughter asks to dance, and hearing the metal of a bullet shell hitting the concrete while watching a movie are what excites me and are the reasons why I'm asking for direction on how to best phrase my requests to illicit the advice that's best suited for me.

From my limited experience, something like a Klipsch speaker doesn't match my style (metallic is the word I would use to describe - how does saying that translate into what I don't like). At the same time, I'm beyond my "bass that goes boom" days. I grew up listening to old school JBL's, Cerwin Vega's, MK's, Infiniti Kappa's, and Dynaudio's. I listen to guitar rock, classic rock, Jazz guitar, hip-hop, and an occasional dance track (daughter).

So where do I start? How do I determine my "Audiophile" style?

If I like Dynaudio would I like McKintosh Speakers etc?

Once I get a basic understanding of where to start, I'll begin asking for product advice with a basic understanding of what to filter out, until then I look forward to an education.

I understand the basics ... I'm just trying to understand if there are speaker design styles that lend themselves to certain preferences ... Again, if I can say what I like to hear will that shorten the list of potential brands/models? Saying "go listen and tell me your budget" doesn't address my initial question. If that were the case I'd ask should I buy X or Y and let the opinions start to fly. Instead I'm trying to filter those out ahead of that discussion.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Dear Siper1,
I assume you used forums to find out your own preferences in "...fine automobiles, wine, bourbons, etc..." ?
My point is most likely you didn't - you tasted many, many different bottles until you settled on ones YOU like. There is no forum in the world, who could tell you what YOU would like or not.

But I will try to steer you (like blind leading blind):
You've mentioned - Klipsch as metallic sound - We typically refer to Klipsch as possibly harsh (not every Klipsch, just cheap ones - LaScala for example which cost 3.5k each is a different topic)
Usually associated with listener's fatigue

You describe like you'd prefer accurate speakers without the boominess. If you love punchy and accurate bass, unless you willing to spend small fortune on true full range speaker, be ready to include good sub in the mix - keep in mind despite the later is a "budget" option, good entry level sub still costs $500-1000 (depends on room size)

Some of brands I would recommend to you to narrow your search:
http://philharmonicaudio.com/
http://www.salksound.com/
http://www.nhthifi.com/
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/
http://gr-research.com/

Also pre-Klipsch era (pre-2006) Energy's Connoisseur, Reference Connoisseur and Veritas series

For subs:
http://www.svsound.com/
http://www.hsuresearch.com/
http://rythmikaudio.com/

 

[highfigh]

You probably know when you don't like something sooner than knowing that you really like most of the aspects from something. A speaker may do great for everything but bass, some aren't great WRT mid-range clarity and some have difficulty in balancing the transition from bass to mid-range and mid-treble range. Some have phase problems, some have great dispersion and off-axis response and some only sound good from a great distance.

At some point, it's necessary to define what the likes and dislikes are and that takes time, just like appreciation of anything else.

 

[Swerd]

Siper1, welcome to AH . Your "taste" in speakers seems clear to me. I think you described it rather well.

Look for speakers that advertize as flat a frequency response as possible across the audio spectrum. Warning: Not all speaker makers are honest about this, but those that do publish a frequency response curve usually do it because they are proud of it. Frequency response curves published by reliable third parties, such as Stereophile or Sound Stage Network are good resources for someone who is shopping or learning. Both have measured a wide number of speakers using reproducible methods, so the graphs can be compared with one another. With Stereophile speaker reviews, I tent to ignore the reviewers comments, but the speaker performance measurements (made by someone else) are very good.

Look for speakers that have a clear and realistic mid range, especially through the crossover frequencies. How realistic they sound with human voice, or unamplified instruments (especially brass instruments like French horn), will easily reveal this.

Look for speakers that widely disperse a realistic mid range sound over as wide a listening angle as possible.

Avoid most or all modern and lower priced Klipsch speakers. Their horn tweeters create a resonance in the range of 400 Hz that I and others don't like. (It makes music sound like it was recorded in a large all-tile bathroom.) You seem to fall into that category. Others don't mind that sound. The Klipsch La Scala does not suffer from that, so not all horn loaded speakers are guilty. But most that I've heard are.

Look for speakers that do not try to achieve extra bass response exaggerated above and beyond what the woofer is capable of. In common language, this is called tight or fast bass. In technical language, this is called critically damped bass or Low Q bass tuning (where Q is no higher than 0.7). Bass that is High Q (Q = 1 or greater), will produce more bass, but it comes with a cost. The bass will sound muddy, and will last longer than it should. The lack of critical damping allows the woofer to ring on and on like a bell. This creeps into the lower mid range, and muddies up sound more than many people realize. If you've heard older Cerwin Vegas (for example), you know this sound.

The recommendations made by others above are good ones, and I agree with them. Many of them are sold only by internet direct. You will not find them in stores. Often the manufacturers of these speakers can direct you to local owners who are happy to show off their speakers. (I'm one of those guys. Live near the Washington DC area?)

 

[shadyJ]

To put what Swerd said another way, just get the most accurate speaker as you can, and then EQ according to taste. An inaccurate speaker with goofy off-axis response is very difficult to EQ unless you live in an anechoic chamber.

 

[Siper1]

This is a great start. I know what I'm asking is subjective. Yes, I can tell people which direction to take based on their tastes when it comes to cars, wines, restaurants, golf clubs, etc. I can't predict their top choice but I can generally guess 5 of which one will be just on characteristics alone.

Budget - $3-$5K (Used is fine) L/R/C/Sub

Source - I currently have a Denon AVR 4311 (?) and a Sunfire TG3 at my disposal.

Room - Medium Size (10X12)

Use - Primarily Home Theater (TV is a 60" Pioneer Kuro Elite)

Nuances - L/R/C Need to be bookshelves - floor speakers just can't work

Currently considering

- Dynaudio (Contour, Focus, and C1)
- Mcintosh LCR80 Center plus the XR50 bookshelves (friend has them for me to try)

Looking for others.

Thanks

 

[highfigh]

This is a great start. I know what I'm asking is subjective. Yes, I can tell people which direction to take based on their tastes when it comes to cars, wines, restaurants, golf clubs, etc. I can't predict their top choice but I can generally guess 5 of which one will be just on characteristics alone.

Budget - $3-$5K (Used is fine) L/R/C/Sub

Source - I currently have a Denon AVR 4311 (?) and a Sunfire TG3 at my disposal.

Room - Medium Size (10X12)

Use - Primarily Home Theater (TV is a 60" Pioneer Kuro Elite)

Nuances - L/R/C Need to be bookshelves - floor speakers just can't work

Currently considering

- Dynaudio (Contour, Focus, and C1)
- Mcintosh LCR80 Center plus the XR50 bookshelves (friend has them for me to try)

Looking for others.

Thanks

The Contour ought to sound great the only McIntosh I have listened to are their large floor-standing model with a cluster of tweeters.

I installed three pairs of Dynaudio Excite 14 in a house- one pair in the upper kitchen cabinet, one pair near the floor in the Sun Room (45' feet away) and another pair in the corners of the Living Room. The floorplan is open from the Kitchen into the dining area and now that they builders installed a large doorway to the Sun Room, that's not such a separate room, anymore. The Dining area connects to the Living Room through a large double sliding door and when that's open, I can walk from the entrance to the Kitchen, through that room to the Sun Room and into the Living Room without volume level changes. For such small speakers, they really fill the room.

 

[Swerd]

You should be able to get very nice sounding bookshelf speakers for $3k to $5k.

Like highfigh, I've only heard those enormous Mcintosh array tower speakers, with way too many tweeters, that they haul around to audio shows. If I recall, I wasn't impressed by their sound. But hotel rooms are often poor places to demo speakers.

I've heard Dynaudio speakers many years ago, but I do remember liking them. I listened to towers, and don't remember the model. Dynaudio has a very good reputation, and other than their high price, they probably are a good choice.

I would suggest listening to these ID speakers:

The BMR Philharmonitor

The Salk HT1

Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2

I've heard the first two (they are excellent), and am fairly sure the third is as good as other Ascend Sierra-1 which I have heard. All of them fit the general characteristics I described earlier. Note that Salk sells a number of other stand mounted speakers in prices higher and lower than the HT1.

To put what Swerd said another way, just get the most accurate speaker as you can, and then EQ according to taste. An inaccurate speaker with goofy off-axis response is very difficult to EQ unless you live in an anechoic chamber.

Are you implying that I'm long winded? I resemble that remark!

Good point about EQ and off-axis response.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Swerd, thats 3-5k for LCR and a sub.
Salk HT1's probably over the budget, but Salk's Song Surround would fit the bill.
I heard Salk's WOW1 and SILK speakers, but nothing floored me as SoundScape 8. To this day I think they are best speakers money can buy (even compared to 100k speakers)

 

[Swerd]

Swerd, thats 3-5k for LCR and a sub.
Salk HT1's probably over the budget, but Salk's Song Surround would fit the bill.
I heard Salk's WOW1 and SILK speakers, but nothing floored me as SoundScape 8. To this day I think they are best speakers money can buy (even compared to 100k speakers)

Whoops. I completely failed to see the word Sub when I read that .

Just the same, 3 Salk SongSurround I speakers will be excellent.

 

[Siper1]

I'd be fine paying a little more for the WOW1 and the Silk speakers if they sounded that much better - BoredSysAdmin, what are your thoughts on those?

Wish I could hear them... I listened to Dynaudio Focus, Contour, and Confidence speakers today at a local shop and auditioned the Macintosh in my house today (using the Sunfire TG3). I was impressed by all of them. I can get the Macintosh from my friend for $2K and a complete Focus 140/Center from another for $2,500. (OR pay a little more for the newer 160)

I also listen to a pair of mid-priced Focal's, Paradigm, B&W, Pioneer Elite's (very nice for sub $1000). The Dynaudio and Macintosh have stood out the most. If not for the fact that I can basically buy brand new Macintosh speakers from my friend the leading candidate so far would be the Dynaudio Focus 140 or 160 with the matching center and a good sub.

I really appreciate the guidance and am interested into looking/hearing the other brands listed.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

like I said - they both sound very good, but next to SS8 they weren't as impressing.
Just like Nissan GTR and Jaguar F type are great cars, but standing next to Lambo Huracan they are not as spectacular.

Jim Salk makes great speakers, but my gut feeling tells me you'd get very similar quality speakers better value with Philharmonic audio and Ascend acoustics.

 

[Swerd]

I looked for 3rd party measurements & reviews, and found several Dynaudios, but not the exact models you mentioned. They all look very good on paper (see below).

Remember that Stereophile reviews have a text section written by one revewer, and a measurement section done by someone different (usually John Atkinson). I take the first reviewer's comments as purely subjective, but the measurements are a good indicator of performance.

Dynaudio Focus 110

Dynaudio Confidence C1

Dynaudio Contour 1.3 Mk II

Dynaudio Focus 140

I didn't find reviews of Mcintosh speakers.

Salk (located near Detroit) makes excellent speakers with first rate components, crossover design, and cabinets. His veneers and finishes (even the standard priced ones) are among the best I've ever seen for any speaker or furniture. (See the photos in my signature link below for Salk's standard curly cherry veneer.)

I personally know the crossover designer that does nearly all of Salks speakers, Dennis Murphy. He and Jim design the concept for a speaker, and Dennis does the detailed crossover design. All his work share a similar sound, that I prefer, and have tried to explain to you. Yes, I think of him as a friend, so I have a biased view, but I have no qualms about recommending his speaker designs to others. Based on what you've said in this thread, I think you will also like this sound.

I've heard the Salk SongSurround I, Veracity HT1, but not the WOW1 or the Silk. But I can confidently recommend any of the Salks. Note that the WOW1 is a small cabinet with a 12 cm or 4.7 inch woofer.

Dennis also designs and sells his own line of speakers, Philharmonic Audio. I've also heard them and can confidently recommend them as well. The cabinets and finishes are less expensive than those for Salk, but their sound is essentially the same. I think Dennis's new 3-way stand mounted monitor, the BMR Philharmonitor might be excellent for you. This speaker is available with 3 standard finishes for $1400/pair or with cabinets built by Salk for $200 extra. Dennis can tell you what he might recommend as a center channel speaker.

For you, it probably comes down to price, availability, and what you can listen to. Based on what I've seen published about those Dynaudios, and the prices you mentioned, they might be a good choice. However, I urge you to contact Jim Salk or Dennis Murphy about how you can listen to their speakers.

Other than the Sierra-1 (a very popular 2-way bookshelf speaker), I'm less familiar with the Ascend Acoustics line of speakers, and I don't personally know the owner/designer. But, based on what Dennis Murphy tells me (he has met Dave Fabricant at audio shows and likes his speaker designs), I would say these speakers are also very good.

 

[Siper1]

I was going to reach out to both today to see if there was a way to demo the speaker for 30 days. From what I've read, how does one do that subjectively without breaking in properly? Ascend is 30 minutes from me, I was going to see if I could go visit them this week.

 

[agarwalro]

My vote,

3x Sierra 2
2x Rythmik F15

.

I also recommend that you trade in the receiver for something with volume based EQ. Audyssey DynamicEQ made a huge improvement in my listening experience. Dual sub calibration is nice, but, not required. The Denon X4000 fits that need perfectly. To be more future proof, maybe the X4100 or X4200.

 

[Swerd]

I was going to reach out to both today to see if there was a way to demo the speaker for 30 days. Ascend is 30 minutes from me, I was going to see if I could go visit them this week.

Good, do all those. Visiting Ascend sounds like a great idea.

From what I've read, how does one do that subjectively without breaking in properly?

Speaker break-in is one of those controversial audio subjects not unlike the endless debates over speaker cables. There's a lot of opinion & here say, with little or no science or common sense. Personally, I think break-in occurs during the first minutes of play, and depending on the speaker, makes little or no audible difference. That's been my experience, and I know other DIY and professional speaker builders who agree.

Any speaker maker or seller who claims you cannot know what a speaker truly sounds like unless it has been 'broken-in' for dozens or hundreds of hours is spouting nonsense. More likely, they are creating smoke screens to evade customers who want to return what they bought and don't like.

When you speak with Jim Salk or Dennis Murphy, or visit Ascend, ask them that same question.

 

[Swerd]

3x Sierra 2
2x Rythmik F15

While I like those choices in general, I think two 15" sub woofers in a 10×12 foot room might be a bit of overkill .

 

[Siper1]

Does anyone have experience with SVS?

 

[Swerd]

SVS sells excellent sub woofers.

Their tower speakers that I've heard at an audio show (a model that sells for about $2k per pair) wasn't at all bad, but for that price, I think there is plenty of competition that is somewhat better.

 

[zieglj01]

From what I've read, how does one do that subjectively without breaking in properly?

You do not break them in - they break you in.