Need advice on upgrading from my HSU VTF-3 MK5

[bomt697]

Shady is spot on in his recommendation and advice.

It's hard to define whether the Monoliths or Arendals would be a supreme step above the Hsus... In a way it really becomes a question of what your values are. If you are chasing super clean infrasonic output or craving more mid-bass chest slam... How loud you listen... What your overall room volume is?

The Monoliths and Arendals are well reviewed and documented. Same with older versions of the Rythmiks. There really isn't much difference between them all in terms of SQ. More will come down to aesthetic, size, and whether the Amp will give you all the connectivity and UI that you may want.

Personally, if I were buying a manufactured Sub today, I would probably go with the Monoliths 16s. The 215s are very cool, too. Hell, even the regular 15 is a very good performing Sub.

I dont understand the question on how i would listen, could you please rephrase
Room is roughly 400sq and about 3200 cubic feet.
Room is semi-sealed.

Would go as far to say the Monoliths 15s are better then HSU 15s i have now?

 

[bomt697]

I think you hit on something here Ryan. What does our OP want to move up to from what he already has? Is it deeper bass extension? More midbass slam? Or like some with the itch to upgrade just MORE of what he already gets from the HSU. He has a very good budget set aside for each sub. I think once we know what he wants to get by upgrading from the HSU we can give him some good ideas on what he should look at

I understand "Wanting more" was very vague. What I mean by this is, I would like deeper richer bass with more of tactile sensation. Also I noted some chuffing with the HSU subs during the car chase scene in The Batman. I believe I only have the subs between 11-12 o'clock and felt a bit strained. I hope this helps make more sense of what I was trying to say.

 

[bomt697]

The Defiance 15 is a great sub, but I don't think it would be a major step above the VTF-3 mk5. All it would do is gain 2 to 3dB in the midbass region. The Monolith M215 would be a major step up.

Could you please elaborate a bit more on how the M215 would be a significant upgrade to the HSUs?

 

[ryanosaur]

I dont understand the question on how i would listen

I asked how loud you listen...
Some people turn up the Bass with a house curve in their room correction for example... so while you may listen at -10dB, your bass could still be +10dB...

So how loud you listen is maybe more appropriately phrased as how hard you push the Subs.

As for a semi-sealed room... it's either sealed or not. Mind, you don't have to do as some say and "pressurize" the room. However, LF Soundwaves are very long and pretty much do what they want... so in some ways, if your room isn't closed off, they will act on the bigger space.

That said, I doubt you really need to go crazy with giant Subs... You will be pretty close to them and the "semi-sealed" nature of the room won't matter as much.

 

[bomt697]

I asked how loud you listen...
Some people turn up the Bass with a house curve in their room correction for example... so while you may listen at -10dB, your bass could still be +10dB...

So how loud you listen is maybe more appropriately phrased as how hard you push the Subs.

As for a semi-sealed room... it's either sealed or not. Mind, you don't have to do as some say and "pressurize" the room. However, LF Soundwaves are very long and pretty much do what they want... so in some ways, if your room isn't closed off, they will act on the bigger space.

That said, I doubt you really need to go crazy with giant Subs... You will be pretty close to them and the "semi-sealed" nature of the room won't matter as much.

I currently have them set to 80-85 dB via miniDSP/REW if I remember correctly
Sorry dont remember what the settings of my house curve is

 

[lovinthehd]

I currently have them set to 80-85 dB via miniDSP/REW if I remember correctly
Sorry dont remember what the settings of my house curve is

You likely listen at higher levels than 85dB or you wouldn't be here. You saying you have them set 5-10dB higher than reference volume and then apply a house curve on top? What is the gear you're using particularly?

 

[bomt697]

You likely listen at higher levels than 85dB or you wouldn't be here. You saying you have them set 5-10dB higher than reference volume and then apply a house curve on top? What is the gear you're using particularly?

Denon 4700 AVR - power atmos channels x4
Buckeye n502 500 wpc class D amp - power front stage
Emotiva amp - powering surrounds and rears
MiniDSP crossing over my subs
Arendal 1723 THX LCR
Arendal 1723 THX surrounds and rear
Def tech Di8-r x4
HSU VTF-3 mk5 15” subs x3
LG C8 OLED 77”

 

[shadyJ]

Could you please elaborate a bit more on how the M215 would be a significant upgrade to the HSUs?

The M-215 is basically just two Monolith 15" THX Ultras stacked; double the driver, double the amp, and double the enclosure volume. The Monolith 15" THX Ultra had an extremely good driver, even better than the Hsu 15", plus a more powerful amp. The Monolith 15" THX Ultra is like $1.5k itself, so the M-215 is like getting two 15" THX Ultras for $850 each, a spectacularly good deal. Versus a VTF-3 mk5, the M-215 will have nearly double the mid-bass output and quadruple the deep bass output below 25Hz.

The only question is can you handle the enormous weight of the M-215. It weighs 216lbs., so it's something you have to carefully work out the logistics of if you plan on getting one. Then again, if you want something substantially better than the VTf-3 mk5, there is no way it will be a lightweight subwoofer.

 

[lovinthehd]

Denon 4700 AVR - power atmos channels x4
Buckeye n502 500 wpc class D amp - power front stage
Emotiva amp - powering surrounds and rears
MiniDSP crossing over my subs
Arendal 1723 THX LCR
Arendal 1723 THX surrounds and rear
Def tech Di8-r x4
HSU VTF-3 mk5 15” subs x3
LG C8 OLED 77”

And listening levels?

 

[Uncle_Big_Green]

bomt697, if you're in the Denver area and those HSUs are in good shape, then I may take one of them off your hands.

 

[TLS Guy]

Denon 4700 AVR - power atmos channels x4
Buckeye n502 500 wpc class D amp - power front stage
Emotiva amp - powering surrounds and rears
MiniDSP crossing over my subs
Arendal 1723 THX LCR
Arendal 1723 THX surrounds and rear
Def tech Di8-r x4
HSU VTF-3 mk5 15” subs x3
LG C8 OLED 77”

I suspect your problem is in set up. You already have excellent subs. I have experience of HSU subs. You also have very potent speakers, with good power to 35 Hz.

I would bet your problem is how you are implementing your crossover.

I suspect that you are not harnessing the power available in the lower octaves from your tower speakers. I would run them full range, and NOT cross them over. I would just use two of those subs for a start and put one right next to each right and left speaker. Now set the subs to gently supplement your speakers up to 60 Hz for a start, and also try 80 Hz, but I have a feeling 60 or may be 40 Hz will be optimal. I like to use omni mic to see what is going on, but use your ears first. Do not use Audyssey or any auto Eq programs initially. you probably don't need Audyssey anyway. That program makes a mess of all my three systems.

I have a feeling you have too much sub and the last thing you need is more.

Realistic reproduction requires careful integration of all speakers. Actually all speakers should be designed as a unit, that means subs and their crossovers should be designed as an entity, not this Hodge podge mess we currently have to put up with. I design my speakers as an integrity from the lowest to the highest. You will have to cope with the way things are, but you can do the best you can to integrate your speakers. I can tell you that scattering subs round a room is just wrong. Yes, wrong. Separating fundamentals from harmonics in time and space is a very bad idea. When active crossovers and DSP solve the time smear of speakers, people will come to realize how wrong headed we have been.

If you go about this carefully, I'm sure you will find you do not have to spend money on changing speakers. Just chuck overboard a lot of your preconceived ideas and plenty of current wisdom, that I know for certain is wrong.

 

[lovinthehd]

I suspect your problem is in set up. You already have excellent subs. I have experience of HSU subs. You also have very potent speakers, with good power to 35 Hz.

I would bet your problem is how you are implementing your crossover.

I suspect that you are not harnessing the power available in the lower octaves from your tower speakers. I would run them full range, and NOT cross them over. I would just use two of those subs for a start and put one right next to each right and left speaker. Now set the subs to gently supplement your speakers up to 60 Hz for a start, and also try 80 Hz, but I have a feeling 60 or may be 40 Hz will be optimal. I like to use omni mic to see what is going on, but use your ears first. Do not use Audyssey or any auto Eq programs initially. you probably don't need Audyssey anyway. That program makes a mess of all my three systems.

I have a feeling you have too much sub and the last thing you need is more.

Realistic reproduction requires careful integration of all speakers. Actually all speakers should be designed as a unit, that means subs and their crossovers should be designed as an entity, not this Hodge podge mess we currently have to put up with. I design my speakers as an integrity from the lowest to the highest. You will have to cope with the way things are, but you can do the best you can to integrate your speakers. I can tell you that scattering subs round a room is just wrong. Yes, wrong. Separating fundamentals from harmonics in time and space is a very bad idea. When active crossovers and DSP solve the time smear of speakers, people will come to realize how wrong headed we have been.

If you go about this carefully, I'm sure you will find you do not have to spend money on changing speakers. Just chuck overboard a lot of your preconceived ideas and plenty of current wisdom, that I know for certain is wrong.

Or not. Does Arendal agree with your assessment? I prefer not to have the double bass thing going myself. Multiple subs can do more than you think it seems, but you don't seem to have a lot of experience with subs either.

 

[snakeeyes]

I think the wife would notice the Monolith M215 subs. LOL

 

[lovinthehd]

I think the wife would notice the Monolith M215 subs. LOL

More likely only if she tries to move them for vacuuming....but that's kinda sexist

 

[TLS Guy]

Or not. Does Arendal agree with your assessment? I prefer not to have the double bass thing going myself. Multiple subs can do more than you think it seems, but you don't seem to have a lot of experience with subs either.

I think it very much depends on the capability of the main speakers. For instance my in wall system has smaller drivers, so I don't run them full range, but speakers and sub are tightly integrated as a design. In the others I keep phase shifts to the bare minimum, which requires using acoustic crossovers to the greatest extent possible, as I have jumped into DSP as part of my crossovers yet. In the bass region the wave lengths are long, which makes time smear a serious issue, which people ignore out of ignorance or desperation.

One thing I do know is that probably most systems have too much sub rather then too little. I think that comes from covering the weakness in output in that 80 to 400 Hz pass band. You don't pick this up in standard measurements, because they are not done at power. I have posted about this at length often.

 

[mx416]

Second vote for the Rythmik FV18!

However it would be worth your while to try everything suggested here with regard to setup/crossover/room correct/EQ before spending 6k-9k$. Not saying you haven’t tried adjustments to your setup, but you definitely need to check that box since you have some very nice subs already.

 

[everettT]

I am crossing over miniDSP. Mains are Arendal 1723 THX. I used the 6 band EQ that comes with REW software

What is you crossover frequency or are you running the Arendals L/R full range and which setup are you using for the ports? Which center are you using and how is it setup? Do you have in room measurements below 200hz? Aside from the EQ in REW, did you apply any other filters for the sub? Which AVR? Running your mains sealed and full range should yield you very good results with 4 subs...

 

[everettT]

Or not. Does Arendal agree with your assessment? I prefer not to have the double bass thing going myself. Multiple subs can do more than you think it seems, but you don't seem to have a lot of experience with subs either.

I'd be curious as to their response but I've always understood it to run THX full range sealed as to better integrate with the subs in an HT setup. The F3 in sealed mode is 55 hz and at12db an octave, there is still good output down to 22.5hz. I wouldn't do it with ported speakers unless they have an F3 of 30hz ish or lower.