Need advice for a Phono Preamp

[BMEJ]

Hi
Just recently picked up a Technics 1210 MK5 turntable and a Denon DL-110 moving coil cartridge.

Although, I don't need a preamp, because my Sony STR-DA555ES receiver has phono inputs, I would like to add a preamp to the mix to boost the sound.

Can someone offer advice as to which one that I should purchase......looking to spend about $100 at the Needle Doctor.

Alterior motive here is to move the turntable farther away from my home theatre receiver, so, grounding to the preamp is a necessity.

thanks for the help in advance.

 

[highfigh]

Hi
Just recently picked up a Technics 1210 MK5 turntable and a Denon DL-110 moving coil cartridge.

Although, I don't need a preamp, because my Sony STR-DA555ES receiver has phono inputs, I would like to add a preamp to the mix to boost the sound.

Can someone offer advice as to which one that I should purchase......looking to spend about $100 at the Needle Doctor.

Alterior motive here is to move the turntable farther away from my home theatre receiver, so, grounding to the preamp is a necessity.

thanks for the help in advance.

If you buy one, tell the dealer which cartridge and receiver you have. A turntable is the only source I would keep as close to the receiver as possible because its output is lowest. Sending low level signal over a long distance increases the noise and this can be not only hiss/rumble but also hum. The Denon cartridge is a good one but its output is lower than the Sonys sensitivity (1.6mV vs 2.5mV). Tell the people at the Needle Doctor what you have.

 

[Swerd]

Just recently picked up a Technics 1210 MK5 turntable and a Denon DL-110 moving coil cartridge.

Although, I don't need a preamp, because my Sony STR-DA555ES receiver has phono inputs, I would like to add a preamp to the mix to boost the sound.

Can someone offer advice as to which one that I should purchase......looking to spend about $100 at the Needle Doctor.

Alterior motive here is to move the turntable farther away from my home theatre receiver, so, grounding to the preamp is a necessity.

I have used an Audio Technica PEQ3 successfully with a moving magnet cartridge. It is rated at 2.5 mili Volt input sensitivity. Your Denon DL-110 is a moving coil with rather high output, rated at 1.6 mV, but said in the link to be as high as 2.2 mV.

Call Needle Doctor and ask them what they would recommend.

 

[Swerd]

…Alterior motive here is to move the turntable farther away from my home theatre receiver, so, grounding to the preamp is a necessity.

+1 to what highfigh says about extending the length of phonograph signal lines. Don't extend their length.

But it's OK if you extend the length of the RCA cables between the phono preamp and your receiver. With a preamp, the signal will be line level, so be sure to use an analog audio input other than your phono input.

 

[BMEJ]

+1 to what highfigh says about extending the length of phonograph signal lines. Don't extend their length.

But it's OK if you extend the length of the RCA cables between the phono preamp and your receiver. With a preamp, the signal will be line level, so be sure to use an analog audio input other than your phono input.

What would happen if I used a preamp and the phono input on the receiver?

 

[highfigh]

What would happen if I used a preamp and the phono input on the receiver?

That depends on how much gain the preamp provides. If it's excessive, it'll distort at times, mostly on signal peaks. If it's really too much, it'll sound dull, distorted all the time and just won't be anything you'll want to keep.

As far as the cable length issue- this is one of the few cases where a little longer can make it sound a lot worse. Cable has some capacitance and with a phono cartridge as the source, it's affected more than most because of the small output voltage.

 

[TLS Guy]

What would happen if I used a preamp and the phono input on the receiver?

The phono cartridge has to see 47 Kohms and 100pf. So now you can not amplify the signal with any preamp and then connect to the phono input.

Even high output moving coil cartridges have significantly less output than moving magnet types, and so you will need a phono preamp with higher than average sensitivity and gain.

This one is the cheapest that will fit the bill.

 

[audiofox]

The Cambridge Audio 640p is also an option-although it is a bit more expensive at $180, it is a well regarded preamp that has been favorably compared in reviews and other forums with more expensive preamps. There are also a lot of good inexpensive "legacy" MM/MC phono preamps around-I snagged a used Rotel RQ-970BX MM/MC phono preamp on Audiogon for around $100 and am very happy with it. You could also get a legacy preamp with a phono stage built into it-there are a lot of very nice 2 channel preamps with MMM/MC stages from Yamaha, Rotel, and others available on eBay and Audiogon. A full preamp would also give you adjustable gain from the preamp's volume control.

I'm with HighFigh on the cable length issue-keep the TT-preamp cables as short as possible since that signal is 30-40 dB lower than that at the preamp output and is much more susceptible to degraded SNR.

 

[BMEJ]

The Cambridge Audio 640p is also an option-although it is a bit more expensive at $180, it is a well regarded preamp that has been favorably compared in reviews and other forums with more expensive preamps. There are also a lot of good inexpensive "legacy" MM/MC phono preamps around-I snagged a used Rotel RQ-970BX MM/MC phono preamp on Audiogon for around $100 and am very happy with it. You could also get a legacy preamp with a phono stage built into it-there are a lot of very nice 2 channel preamps with MMM/MC stages from Yamaha, Rotel, and others available on eBay and Audiogon. A full preamp would also give you adjustable gain from the preamp's volume control.

I'm with HighFigh on the cable length issue-keep the TT-preamp cables as short as possible since that signal is 30-40 dB lower than that at the preamp output and is much more susceptible to degraded SNR.

I'm with you on keeping the cable on the turntable the existing length, but it is ok to have longer cables from the preamp out to the receivers in, correct?

thanks

 

[audiofox]

I'm with you on keeping the cable on the turntable the existing length, but it is ok to have longer cables from the preamp out to the receivers in, correct?

thanks

Since the signal level is higher, any noise introduced into the cable between the preamp and the receiver (or power amp) will have less of an effect than the same noise power introduced on the TT-preamp cables. There is a practical upper limit, but if you use good quality line cables (you don't need any $500/foot "snake-oil" cables, Monoprice line level RCA cables will suffice) with shielding, you should be able to run 3-6 foot cables and still minimize the noise picked up by the cable, which will be minimal anyway unless your setup has a lot of unshielded electronics. FWIW, here is my setup: I have a VPI HW-19 Mark 4 TT with an SME 309 tonearm and an Audio Technica AT-OC9 MC cartridge, and I use the stock SME cables between it and the Rotel preamp. I use a pair of Blue Jeans shielded line level RCA interconnects using Belden 1694a shielded cable (they are 2-3 feet long) between the preamp and my receiver, but I have used other (and longer) cables and have not heard any noticeable change (good or bad) to the noise level. I've actually had more problems over the years with bad grounding connections between the various components, which can introduce 60 Hz hum from the 120V AC line (not noise, since it is a deterministic signal) and is not typically solvable by selection of interconnects. In addition, given that the cartridge is a mechanical pickup device, you are much more likely to get noise from that than you will with any of the interconnects.

 

[TLS Guy]

Since the signal level is higher, any noise introduced into the cable between the preamp and the receiver (or power amp) will have less of an effect than the same noise power introduced on the TT-preamp cables. There is a practical upper limit, but if you use good quality line cables (you don't need any $500/foot "snake-oil" cables, Monoprice line level RCA cables will suffice) with shielding, you should be able to run 3-6 foot cables and still minimize the noise picked up by the cable, which will be minimal anyway unless your setup has a lot of unshielded electronics. FWIW, here is my setup: I have a VPI HW-19 Mark 4 TT with an SME 309 tonearm and an Audio Technica AT-OC9 MC cartridge, and I use the stock SME cables between it and the Rotel preamp. I use a pair of Blue Jeans shielded line level RCA interconnects using Belden 1694a shielded cable (they are 2-3 feet long) between the preamp and my receiver, but I have used other (and longer) cables and have not heard any noticeable change (good or bad) to the noise level. I've actually had more problems over the years with bad grounding connections between the various components, which can introduce 60 Hz hum from the 120V AC line (not noise, since it is a deterministic signal) and is not typically solvable by selection of interconnects. In addition, given that the cartridge is a mechanical pickup device, you are much more likely to get noise from that than you will with any of the interconnects.

Another SME arm enthusiast!

 

[audiofox]

I love SME products-they are mechanical works of art. My first audiophile grade TT setup was the venerable Thorens TD125 Mk2 with an SME 3009 Series 2 tonearm, which was as bulletproof a setup as one could find (maybe even today). I sold it only because I got bored and wanted something different-my friend who bought it continues to enjoy it to this day and gloats over the difference in price but not necessarily playback quality between his new (my old) setup and my current VPI/SME setup.

 

[valvesnvinylfan]

I love SME products-they are mechanical works of art. My first audiophile grade TT setup was the venerable Thorens TD125 Mk2 with an SME 3009 Series 2 tonearm, which was as bulletproof a setup as one could find (maybe even today). I sold it only because I got bored and wanted something different-my friend who bought it continues to enjoy it to this day and gloats over the difference in price but not necessarily playback quality between his new (my old) setup and my current VPI/SME setup.

That's awesome--I used to own the same Thorens/SME combo myself, and it was great! I do love my Scout set up more, but there are some things the Thorens/SME did that the Scout can't quite match. Cheers from another TT fan.

 

[audiofox]

What would happen if I used a preamp and the phono input on the receiver?

You would not want to do this, independent of the gain issues-both your phono preamp and the receiver's phono stage are designed to provide a standard RIAA response curve, so two of them in series would probably not sound too great. Here's the wiki on RIA eq if you want to learn more about the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

As you can see from the curve on the wiki page, the sub-100 Hz freq signals are boosted, and the high freqs (above 100 Hz) are attenuated, so you would get roughly twice this effect with two phono stages in series (assuming that both preamps had the exact same response, which is unlikely).

 

[audiofox]

Another SME arm enthusiast!

Twin Garrard 301s-very impressive! Actually, the entire installation is very impressive-if you have time, I'd love to pick your brain on the cabinetwork, especially your heat management approach.

 

[lollyrocks14]

Since the signal level is higher, any noise introduced into the cable between the preamp and the receiver (or power amp) will have less of an effect than the same noise power introduced on the TT-preamp cables. There is a practical upper limit, but if you use good quality line cables (you don't need any $500/foot "snake-oil" cables, Monoprice line level RCA cables will suffice) with shielding, you should be able to run 3-6 foot cables and still minimize the noise picked up by the cable, which will be minimal anyway unless your setup has a lot of unshielded electronics. FWIW, here is my setup: I have a VPI HW-19 Mark 4 TT with an SME 309 tonearm and an Audio Technica AT-OC9 MC cartridge, and I use the stock SME cables between it and the Rotel preamp. I use a pair of Blue Jeans shielded line level RCA interconnects using Belden 1694a shielded cable (they are 2-3 feet long) between the preamp and my receiver, but I have used other (and longer) cables and have not heard any noticeable change (good or bad) to the noise level. I've actually had more problems over the years with bad grounding connections between the various components, which can introduce 60 Hz hum from the 120V AC line (not noise, since it is a deterministic signal) and is not typically solvable by selection of interconnects. In addition, given that the cartridge is a mechanical pickup device, you are much more likely to get noise from that than you will with any of the interconnects.

In response to the last part. I'm having issues with my Numark TT2's. Every time i turn the Master volume above about 7 i get a horrible low pitch hum con through, even if the track isnt playing, aslong as the stylus is on the record it will happen.
I've tried everything i can think of to fix it, including different stylus's, different speakers, different channels and inputs, i'v cleaned everything ! and im stumpped . you seem you know your stuff. Can you advise me in any way Pleaseee ??

Cheers

 

[TLS Guy]

In response to the last part. I'm having issues with my Numark TT2's. Every time i turn the Master volume above about 7 i get a horrible low pitch hum con through, even if the track isnt playing, aslong as the stylus is on the record it will happen.
I've tried everything i can think of to fix it, including different stylus's, different speakers, different channels and inputs, i'v cleaned everything ! and im stumpped . you seem you know your stuff. Can you advise me in any way Pleaseee ??

Cheers

You have acoustic feedback. Try a different location for your turntable where the bass is no so prominent. Also use an isolator under your turntable.

If you are using a sub, turn it down or switch it off.

Your turntable is at the low end of the market, and I suspect their are design issues in the turntable itself contributing to your problem.

 

[markw]

In response to the last part. I'm having issues with my Numark TT2's. Every time i turn the Master volume above about 7 i get a horrible low pitch hum con through, even if the track isnt playing, aslong as the stylus is on the record it will happen.
I've tried everything i can think of to fix it, including different stylus's, different speakers, different channels and inputs, i'v cleaned everything ! and im stumpped . you seem you know your stuff. Can you advise me in any way Pleaseee ??

Cheers

That, my friend, is your classic Acoustic Feedback in action, which is where:

Step 0) We'll talk about this step later...

1) Your cartridge moves as it reads the grooves/vibrations of the record and

2) transforms the mechanical movement into electrical signals which are then

3) sent to your amplifier which then amplifies the signal and

4) sends it out your speakers where it's converted from electrical to mechanical energy.

Now, if your turntable (and cartridge) is in a position where it can pick up the sounds/vibrations from the loudspeaker, we're now at that Step 0.

Step 0 is where the mechanical energy goes back through your turntable and platter and back to your cartridge where it's mixed with the signal coming from the record itself and goes through this cycle over and over again.

Your best bet is to firmly mount your turntable so it's invulnerable to any vibrations, particularly from the speakers. It goes to reason that speakers and turntables should never be in the same piece of furniture. Either that, or rearrange your room so there's a lot more distance between the turntable and speakers.