Need advice...custom 5.1 system

[Cobratron]

I'm fairly a newbie when it comes to home audio. I've always been an expert with car audio but now with a wife and 2 babies that went out the door. Time to beef up the man cave.

I appreciate any advice in advance.

I plan on buying a decent subwoofer but am stumped at what to get. I went to a local audio store and came across this sub

Subwoofers:
Definitive Technology SC4000 Subwoofer - Black..priced at $648 without wireless kit

I was also considering Polk DSWPRO550wi. $355 Huge price difference

Receiver: I'm completely lost here. I heard that Onkyo's are great. I saw that they had receivers that were THX certified and also had 4K upscaling for video which would be great to have once I upgrade my TV in the future.

I was considering the Onkyo TX-NR 616. any advice on this receiver? Or are there any other receivers I should consider.



Speakers:
A bit lost here as well. At the store the sales rep showed me the MartinLogan LX16 Piano Black (Ea.) Bookshelf Speaker. They sounded amazing. Super pricey. Can I get two of these and let's say a cheap center channel and 2 cheaper rear speakers. Basically can I mix in match without it sounding terrible?


Overall, my home audio system will be used for MOVIES and bass heavy music(Hip hop/Techno)


Thanks again and I can't wait to learn more of home audio!

 

[markw]

Several random thoughts.

First off, your center speaker should match your left/right fronts. This means they should be, ideally from the same manufacturer and line as those other two. Imagine someone talking from the left channel and slowly traversing the sound stage from that speaker, through the center and, finally in the right speaker. Unless the speakers are pretty evenly matched, they may revert to their pre-pubescent voice while in the center. Not a good thing. As for surrounds, for movies, since they only really do effects, you can cut back a bit on the quality but for multi-channel music, I'd advise keeping to the same manufacturer/line as your front three.

Second, there are many fine, no, make that excellent, subs from manufactures that specialize in only subwoofers. Hsu, SVS,and Velodyne, and Epic, among others spring to mind immediately. There are others as well as I'm sure others will mention.

Receivers are a whole 'nuther ball game. Decide what features you want/need and others will advise. Onkyo is OK, but so are Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer and others. Personally, I lean towards the Denon/Marantz lines but that's not to say that others are bad. I've just had good experience/luck with those brands.

I'm sure others will chime in. In fact, I'm counting on it.

 

[j_garcia]

"Mix and match" is not a "custom" setup, it is a mistake. As mentioned, at the very least, the front 3 should match otherwise just stick with the R&L speakers and as sub to start off. The 616 will not be adequate to power MLs, IMO. Pick the speakers first, then adequate amplification to drive them.

 

[zieglj01]

What is your room size and max budget?

Also, read this on timbre (voice) matching.
Timbre Matching? - Blu-ray Forum

 

[Cobratron]

What is your room size and max budget?




It's 25X17 with cathedral ceilings. I'd say $2000 would be the max budget, but somewhat flexible.

Thanks for the advice very glad I didn't make any haste moves and start mix and matching. What receiver would power those Martin Logans?

By the way I'm WIDE open to products. thx

 

[FirstReflection]

Hi there!

Given your room size, your budget and your tastes, I'm gonna cut right to the chase and simply detail the system that I would put together myself if it were my money

I'll start with the subwoofer because you have a large room size (around 4000 cubic feet), and that's a challenge, especially when you want to listen to some bass heavy music!

Never ever skimp on the subwoofer. The subwoofer is what makes it FEEL like you're "at the movies" or experiencing a live concert.

You're a little bit limited on budget. That's ok. Taking everything into consideration, I would opt for the SVSound PB12-NSD or PC12-NSD cylinder version. These are very accurate, very good, high output subwoofers. Just check the reviews . You'll see that we're not messing around here And the PB or PC12-NSD has the necessary output capabilities to handle your large room size. What is perhaps the most important feature, and my reason for selecting the PB/PC12-NSD specifically in this case, is that it is truly "unbreakable". You can literally turn the volume on the subwoofer up as high as it goes with zero worries. The PB/PC12-NSD will simply play as loud as it possibly can, and then politely refuse to play any louder. That's what you want, because if you like to listen really loud, in your large room size, you might very well run up against the limits of your subwoofer's output. But the PB or PC12-NSD will never "bottom out", never be in any danger of blowing out the driver or amp, and never even so much as make a bad, high distortion sound. It's really well protected and just performs flawlessly.

One note: the PC12-NSD cylinder version is a great way to save floor space (and $20 ). But you can also lay the cylinder on its side with no problems. That makes it really easy to tuck behind a couch or along the edge of the wall. So don't overlook the cylinder as an option.

For speakers, I'm going to point you to Ascend Acoustics. I love accurate sound reproduction. I love clear, transparent, uncolored sound. In the lower price ranges, nobody delivers that better than Ascend with their SE series of speakers, IMO.

You liked the Martin Logans. I've zero problem with that! But they are more difficult to power, more difficult to place optimally, and more expensive. If you really responded to and liked that sound, what you probably liked was the clarity and detail, the way you could separate notes, and the realism of voices and instruments. The Ascend SE speakers can give you that in speakers that cost less, are easier to drive, easier to place, and can play louder. The SEAS brand tweeter in the Ascend SE series speakers is something really special. It performs WAY better than you'll find at this price point. It's a real treat. And don't just take my word for it. Again, check out some reviews or just read what a fellow forum member who just put together a great home theater with Ascend speakers has to say about them

You're going to want the largest CMT-340SE speakers up front. There's no question about that. The CMT-340SE Main speakers have a matching stand if you want that makes them look like towers. The matching CMT-340SE Center is a real treat for crystal clear dialogue in movies.

I'd go with the HTM-200SE for surrounds.

Try to follow the THX Guidelines for proper speaker placement . You'll notice that the "Surround" speakers actually go directly to either SIDE of your seats. If you have AT LEAST 4 feet of space from the back of your seat to the back wall behind you, then consider going to a 7 speaker setup, where the "Surround Back" 6th & 7th speakers are the ones that go behind you. If you have less than 6 feet of space from the back of your seat to the back wall though, I recommend you stick with 5 speakers. You'll actually get better sound with just 5 if the rear wall is that close to the back of your head.

You'll also notice in the THX descriptions that the Surround and Surround Back speakers are meant to be up high - about 2-3 feet above your head when you're sitting. This allows them to replicate the sound that you'd hear in a movie theater. When you go out to the movies, you'll notice that the side and rear walls are lined with surround speakers, but they're way up high. That's because surround effects are meant to envelop and "blanket" you with sound, not draw your attention away from the screen by firing straight into your ears at ear height! So the HTM-200SE are a great choice for surround speakers because they are smaller and you can easily mount them on the wall They're still not super small or super light though, so be sure to get wall mounts that can handle their size and weight!

You can use Ascend's System Selector to put a 5 or 7 speaker package together and get a discount. You're looking at $1375 if you go with a full 7 speaker set of CMT-340SE Mains, CMT-340SE Center, and two pairs of HTM-200SE surrounds. Add another $100 if you want the "tower look" stands for the CMT-340SE Mains.

continued...

 

[FirstReflection]

...continued

Now you need something to power your new speakers and sub!

I do like Onkyo. I seem to like them more than a lot of people around here. In terms of the number of cutting edge features, the array of outputs, and the formats supported for the price, no other brand really matches Onkyo. I also really like Denon and Marantz. But since we're trying to stay reasonably close to your budget, I'm going to stick with Onkyo here and I'm going to recommend that you go to accessories4less and purchase a 2011 model TX-NR709 .

Now, first, don't worry about the "refurbished" title. Accessories4less is the fully authorized "clearance" online dealer for Onkyo, Denon and Marantz. The products are either completely like new, and often literally completely new. And you get a full 1 year warranty. No 90 day BS. So this is the way to get a great receiver at the best price possible from a fully authorized dealer!

The TX-NR709 is the model I chose specifically for a number of reasons. First, it has Audyssey MultEQ XT. I'm a pretty big fan of Audyssey. I feel strongly that they are the best auto-setup/room correction/EQ solution available at the moment. But you always want to get the highest "level" of Audyssey that you can! MultEQ XT is the 2nd level from the top. Only MultEQ XT32 is higher. And at this price point, MultEQ XT is somewhat rare, so it's a good deal.

More than that though, the TX-NR709 is, by quite a margin, the least expensive receiver out there that has full pre-outs for all 7 speakers plus the subwoofer. That's a big deal in your case because it will allow you to add a separate, more powerful, external amplifier for your speakers if you want to.

Now, since we're already over budget with the speakers, sub and receiver, you might want to just use the TX-NR709 to power everything for now. It'll do fine with the Ascend speakers.

But you do have a large room size. And if you really want to crank your system and get some concert level playback, you're probably going to want to add a good external amp at some point in the future. What I would highly recommend is that you add on the $700 Emotiva XPA-3 . It's a beast of an amp that will let your CMT-340SE front speakers absolutely sing and blow the windows out It's a 3 channel amp, which is perfect. The Onkyo receiver can easily still power the surround speakers. But those 3 front speakers might be begging for more power if you really want to hit reference volume levels. This is a great, cost effective way to get more power than any AV Receiver can muster, while not wasting a penny on extra amps that you don't need!

I'll also say that if you want to go hog wild, get the highest MultEQ XT32 "level" of Audyssey, and have more powerful amps built into the receiver to begin with, keep a close watch on the accessories4less listing for the Onkyo TX-NR818 . It's out of stock right now. But accessories4less gets frequent new inventory. At $750, the 818 is an absolute steal. It's a flagship level receiver by any measurement. Every feature in the book. And you can still add the XPA-3 in the future to unburden the 818's amps for the front 3 speakers if you want

You said you had some flex in terms of budget and brands. I've gone well over the $2000 mark. But I can promise you that each and every component in this list is WELL worth its asking price, and you absolutely cannot do better for less. If and when you hear this system, there will be no doubt in your mind as to where the extra money went. It's a fabulous sounding system that can handle your room size and give you the experience and quality of sound that you want!

I'll also say, give all of these comapanies a phone call and talk to them. They're all great. One of the nicest things in audio is to really feel good about the products you purchase, but also the companies behind them. I think you'll be impressed with their service and feel really good about your decision after talking with them. They don't pressure you. They don't try to upsell you. They all just care about getting you the best experience possible at a price that works for you. And that's awesome and rare.

Head on over the monoprice.com for all of your cables, wire and accessories. They are the one exception to the "seems too good to be true" rule. They really are that cheap and that good. No reason to ever pay more for cables

Hope that helps!

 

[superspeed]

First Reflection Rules!

I just wanted to say First Reflection's advice is spot on!.....I am the recepient of his advice about 6 months ago.
I have the Onkyo 709 model and happy to report that this is a great unit.
Not just because I have it, but because it simply does what has been described above....I am at the point of soon adding a external amp to this receiver, but for the initial start-up, I couldn't be happier...I have been using my "system" more and more each day as it not only kicks a$$ for movies, but sounds awesome for music as well!..The advice on this board is 2nd to none!
Good luck with your set-up and let us know how it goes.

 

[ImcLoud]

FR, definitely knows what he is talking about, he gave me a lot of advice when picking out my system...

I have listened to many speakers in the recent past, and I opted for the Ascends in my 5.1, Im not sure where you are located but if you are anywhere near me, consider yourself invited to come and take a listen...

If I had a $2000 budget, I would buy...

Ascend CBM170 fronts, cmt 340se center {I have 3 -340s accross the front but I heard the 170's and they scream}, and 2 200se's for the rear {same as my rear}. That will cost you $922 shipped {you can save 12% on bstock but Im not sure how much of it is available}...

For a sub, I have listened to many and I cant for the life of me tell the difference except for the volume, although I have to say the HSU sub I bought melts into the ascends perfectly.. And they have a sub for all price ranges... I have the vtf2 and it overpowers my room, which is smaller than your, I paid $615 for it shipped, but the VTF 3 is in bstock for $706 shipped, and if its anything like mine you will be happy for sure.... http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/clearance.html

Now the AVR is going to be your last item and you dont have much left over... But what I see online is that this is the item that changes the fastest, I have separate preamp/amplifier {XPA5 something like the 3 RF mentioned, but 5 channels instead of 3, they are both 200 watts per channel, and let me tell you- There is no way you will use the entire 200 watts, I put my system up 75% and it hits 112db at the seating position, crystal clear but way too loud, I played some Aerosmith when I got that reading, and it was uncomfortable listening levels for sure.. Maybe if the speakers were outside and you were 40 feet wawy you would need more power but not inside a living room}...

I would look around for a decent receiver that fits the rest of your budget... Which is around $375, you will need cables which isnt as expensive as you think, Tarten, Acoustic research, monoprice all good choices and inexpensive, just check amazon... Since you are using an AVR, you really only need a few cables and speaker cables... I made my own audiophile style speaker cables, that cost me 1/10 of some of the fancy ones you can buy...
50ft of 12 ga, copper speaker wire $25 {decent stuff},
50' of techflex PI got the rattle snake 3/8" fit perfect, you can use 1/2" too $15
12 cable pants $15
3ft of shrink cable
package of 24 banna jacks {I used Sewell from amazon, they have a ton of different ones $27
But anyway... Find a receiver for under $400 and you will be golden
I would personally buy this one
DENON AVR-1913 7.1 3D Pass Through Network Home Theater Receiver w/AirPlay | eBay
But the 1912 is like $85 less at accesories4less, and if you look around there you can get a good AVR for $200....

Good luck, I can ony comment on what I listened to, but belive me I wouldnt pay for something with out thinking it was the absolute best for my money and I have the ascend speakers and the HSU sub...

 

[zieglj01]

You can get a nice Denon 3312 receiver here - AC4L is a good company.
DENON AVR-3312CI 7.2 Integrated Network A/V Surround Receiver | Accessories4less

Do not get caught up in fancy cables - not worth the price.

 

[zieglj01]

Also, look at the HSU Hybrid-3 package
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hybrid3pkg.html

 

[Cobratron]

Thanks FirstReflection for the detailed overview and suggestions! wow you guys are the real deal!! I truly appreciate it.

I was at a local store here in Illinois called ABT and ended up putting a deposit on an order for the

2 Martin Logan LX16's $695
1 center Martin Logan MO8BL motion series $348
Subwoofer Definitive super cube 4000 $625
2 rear Definitive (model: PMON800BK) $220
Onkyo TXNR616 $ 389 free wireless lan adapter


I do have the option of completely cancelling this order. Especially now that I read all of these suggestions. Oh boy not sure I'll get to sleep tonight quite exciting stuff. Thanks again everyone!

 

[FirstReflection]

That's by no means a bad system that you put together there. But there are several things that give me pause just a little bit. It's pretty much all just because of your room size.

Those particular Motion Series Martin Logans are nice speakers for the price, but playing loud is not really their forte. And, in particular, they're a little bass shy, which would normally be fine in the small to medium sized room that they're best suited for. In a large room like yours though, I'd have a slight concern about their output capabilities.

That follows along to the TX-NR616 receiver, which I have to say might genuinely struggle a bit in your room size and with those particular speakers, which aren't the easiest load to begin with. I'm not really sure what happened with Onkyo's lineup this year. Everything from the 818 model on up is, like, world class, flagship level stuff. Everything below the 818 is an odd step backwards from the same series models from 2011. That was one of the big reasons why I recommended the 2011 model 709 instead of the current 2012 model 717. Everything took a step backwards this year while the price went up! So I've no idea what happened, but the 818, 1010, 3010 and 5010 are all killer, so it's not like Onkyo can't get it done. 2012 is just a weird anomaly for Onkyo in the low and mid-level receivers.

I'm personally not the biggest fan of the Definitive SuperCube subs. They are initially very impressive because they are so small, and yet they play really quite loud. But they just don't have the linearity and accuracy that I demand, nor the deepest extension to really rattle your bones and blur your vision Given the price, there's really no comparison to something like the SVSound PB12-NSD - although if having a really small size for your subwoofer is important to you, the PB12-NSD does NOT fit that bill (it's BIG - lol).

So my biggest concerns are definitely your receiver most of all, and then the subwoofer behind that. I don't really have any qualms with the Martin Logan speakers, except to say that if you like to listen at full reference volume, in your large room size, they're going to struggle a bit, and your subwoofer is going to need to help out quite a bit on the low end, making that component even more important to really get right!

It really all depends on just how loud you want to be able to listen though. I like to be able to hit reference volume myself, so I'm demanding a lot more in terms of high output and low distortion than most people. Most people are at least 10 dB, often 20dB or even more below reference volume. Reference volume is really loud - movie theater loud - with an average SPL of 85dB and 105dB peaks in the speakers with 115dB peaks in the bass! Most people prefer 75dB average with 95dB peaks, which is still loud, but not the "on the verge of painfully loud" the way reference volume is

So yeah, I was giving quite a lot of weight to what you said about wanting movies (which you put in caps, so I'm guessing you want some good oomph to those ) and bass heavy music to rock out to in that large room. I don't know too many people who listen to techno and hip hop at quiet playback levels So yeah, I'm figuring you wanted something that could bring the house down and blow out the windows if you want it to I'm all about having that kind of loudness available when I want it, so that's the angle I was coming from, while still trying to keep the cost reasonable and sound quality very high!

Anywho, my only real concern in the system you ordered is the receiver. I just don't think it's going to be quite as powerful - especially with those 4 ohm speakers - as what you're hoping for. The speakers are good. The sub is good. But I'd personally want speakers that are a little better suited to LOUD playback in your room size - especially in the bass just above the cross-over point to the subwoofer. And I'm just really picky about bass quality, so I'd want a sub that's a bit better in those areas than the SuperCube. The SuperCube can play loud though, so that's not a problem for you. And if you love that very compact size, there isn't much better.

I hope that makes sense. I'm definitely not trying to rain on your parade! I must stress that what you ordered are still good products! Not knocking them for that! But the system I suggested doesn't cost a whole lot more, and I think it will perform a fair bit better for you. If you had a smaller room, or you listened to different music that isn't so bass heavy and so often BLASTED at very high volumes, I'd have zero problems with the system you ordered! But I've gotta look at the whole picture here and take everything into consideration. So I hope that sounds reasonable. Definitely reconsider that 616 receiver if nothing else

 

[Cobratron]

Very very great advice. I guess what I'll do in this case is try these products from ABT. they give you 30 days to try it and if you do not like you can return it!

Are there any other receivers that have 4k upscaling similiar to the Onkoyo 616?

I'll let everyone know how my set up sounds etc.

 

[markw]

Well, good luck.

You've been offered some excellent advice, particularly from FR who took quite a bit of time to come up with a recommended system. Likewise, he pointed out some very real limitations to what you finally decided to buy.

Frankly, IIWY, I'd re-read what he had to say about your choices before pulling the trigger. He, quite diplomatically, brought out some fairly serious limitations which you simply ignored.

One of the most frustrating things about this site is taking the time to formulate eloquent, well reasoned, solutions to a newbies problems before they arise and then having it summarily ignored.

 

[ImcLoud]

I wish you could come and hear my new system with the ascends, I can promise you you would be buying them over the martins, I listened to almost their entire line at Good wins High End {this place is setup like an art gallery, if you are ever near boston check them out, they had a $100K turntable on display, their stuff is museum quality, lol}, but anyway none of it really impressed me, I listened to there lower end at best buy also, and I think you would be better off with the Pioneer bookshelfs {I forget the numbers} before them...

But hey, you get 30 days to try them, just make sure you dont have to pay a restock fee, and they refund everything including tax...

Also I wouldnt go with that tiny sub, you have a really big room there...

I know where there is a complete ascend setup used but like new {actually a couple of them are new}, it has 340center, 200 rears, and 170 fronts for $800 They are in really good shape the 200s are brand new in the boxes the other 3 are used... Then you would just need an avr and a sub...

I hate to see you settle, just because you put the other stuff in your house... You can honestly get twice that system for the same money... And if FR says stay away from that AVR, I would take the advice "as good as cash"...

 

[EarCandy]

Similar Situation

I've been reading this forum quite a bit lately, but this is my first post. This thread seems somewhat similar to my situation. I'm working on 5.1 in my 20x22 living room w 8 ft ceilings that angle up to 11 ft. On another forum, someone recommended the HSU Hybrid 3 3.1 pkg that zieglj01 also mentioned, with 2 BIC America DV62si bookshelves for surrounds. I was planning on buying either the Denon 2113-CI or the Pioneer VSX-60, with the expectation that I'd upgrade to 7.1 or 7.2 someday. I'm also trying to stay below $2000 total.

I am more concerned with audio quality at mid-volume - I don't plan to have the volume super high very much. I listen to a wide range of music, and watch a lot of movies and television. If I'm not concerned with volume, will I still have good sound without a separate external amp?

Do you have any opinions on the Hybrid package vs the Ascends? What HSU's sub vs the PC12-NSD Cylinder?

Also, I ruled out Onkyo receivers because I saw so many negative user reviews. Should I reconsider Onkyo vs the Pioneer or Denon?

 

[Cobratron]

You've been offered some excellent advice, particularly from FR who took quite a bit of time to come up with a recommended system. Likewise, he pointed out some very real limitations to what you finally decided to buy.

Frankly, IIWY, I'd re-read what he had to say about your choices before pulling the trigger. He, quite diplomatically, brought out some fairly serious limitations which you simply ignored.

One of the most frustrating things about this site is taking the time to formulate eloquent, well reasoned, solutions to a newbies problems before they arise and then having it summarily ignored.

I believe you misunderstood how the posts and my purchases transpired. I made the purchase of all my products BEFORE FR posted. I thanked him sincerely for his post and am still taking it into consideration. If you would go back and read my post I have 30 days to try the equipment and am able to return it free of charge. Pretty sweet deal. Can't hurt to have it set up and listen to it and make adjustments from there.


I understand I'm very new to this site and home audio period, but seems like your bundling all newbies together in a stereotypical fashion where as a senior member gives meaningful advice and I completely disregarded it and never show up on the forum's again.

Try to be aware that all newbies are not the same. You have to understand I'm reading about products I've never heard of in my life. Anyways, this is all about learning and researching and I will continue to look forward to that. Thanks.

 

[markw]

Well, here's your original post in it's entirity.

I'm fairly a newbie when it comes to home audio. I've always been an expert with car audio but now with a wife and 2 babies that went out the door. Time to beef up the man cave.

I appreciate any advice in advance.

I plan on buying a decent subwoofer but am stumped at what to get. I went to a local audio store and came across this sub

Subwoofers:
Definitive Technology SC4000 Subwoofer - Black..priced at $648 without wireless kit

I was also considering Polk DSWPRO550wi. $355 Huge price difference

Receiver: I'm completely lost here. I heard that Onkyo's are great. I saw that they had receivers that were THX certified and also had 4K upscaling for video which would be great to have once I upgrade my TV in the future.

I was considering the Onkyo TX-NR 616. any advice on this receiver? Or are there any other receivers I should consider.



Speakers:
A bit lost here as well. At the store the sales rep showed me the MartinLogan LX16 Piano Black (Ea.) Bookshelf Speaker. They sounded amazing. Super pricey. Can I get two of these and let's say a cheap center channel and 2 cheaper rear speakers. Basically can I mix in match without it sounding terrible?


Overall, my home audio system will be used for MOVIES and bass heavy music(Hip hop/Techno)


Thanks again and I can't wait to learn more of home audio!

Frankly, I fail to see anywhere where you indicate that you've already purchased this stuff. Everything seems to refernce a future purchase.

Of course, if I misread it, I apologize.

Anyhow, FR first posted 5.5 hours after your initial post. That really doesn't leave much of a window in which to glean substantive guidance in making a purchase, particularly when you consider we'er not paid to be here answering questions 24/7. We're hobbiests who try to help, in our spare time, where we can..

 

[ImcLoud]

I've been reading this forum quite a bit lately, but this is my first post. This thread seems somewhat similar to my situation. I'm working on 5.1 in my 20x22 living room w 8 ft ceilings that angle up to 11 ft. On another forum, someone recommended the HSU Hybrid 3 3.1 pkg that zieglj01 also mentioned, with 2 BIC America DV62si bookshelves for surrounds. I was planning on buying either the Denon 2113-CI or the Pioneer VSX-60, with the expectation that I'd upgrade to 7.1 or 7.2 someday. I'm also trying to stay below $2000 total.

I am more concerned with audio quality at mid-volume - I don't plan to have the volume super high very much. I listen to a wide range of music, and watch a lot of movies and television. If I'm not concerned with volume, will I still have good sound without a separate external amp?

Do you have any opinions on the Hybrid package vs the Ascends? What HSU's sub vs the PC12-NSD Cylinder?

Also, I ruled out Onkyo receivers because I saw so many negative user reviews. Should I reconsider Onkyo vs the Pioneer or Denon?

I tested the HSU HC1's and HB1's, and I am just not a fan of the horns, I know the efficiency is better, but at what cost? At first I didnt know why I didnt like the sound, then it was explained to me, as soon as I described it as too high and tinny... I was told this is because of the tweeters, the speakers just sounded so harsh and I have no doubt after a 2 hour movie I would be exhausted... I was also told this is called being too bright, vs the ascends with their mellow realistic mids and smooth highs that effortlessly blend together... Get the Ascends and dont look back...