Narrowed it down.. SVS, eD, Rythmik

[cantonguy]

You should just drop it. It doesn't help the original poster really. You don't have the SVS, so you don't know about it. I don't have the Rythmik, hence I didn't comment on it. And I know you weren't responding to anything I said. Perhaps though, you (and others) should take that advice...speak only of that which you know of. I'll consider it a successful post if there is no direct response to it-that means you (and anyone else) will have gotten the point-help the OP, not bicker amongst yourselves.

This is my last post.
You have not heard both, neither have I. If he is asking about 2 subs... the only person that should be able to answer, according to certain people, are the ones that have heard both subs. Are you getting the point? 90%( a guess, someone will want numbers on this too, i'm sure) of people have not heard all these subs. A majority of us, including myself, have only heard a few. We tend to fill in the gaps with what we have learned from other people that have heard subs we have not. I think that is how it should be and I think your opinion is worthwile, so I wasn't attacking you my friend.

if I read somewhere that one sub is an ouput machine, but does not sound AS clean as another(OR sloppier)... and I find the source to be reliable... I will repeat that to someone who wants advice.

 

[trnqk7]

You didn't read my post very well. I never suggested you shouldn't post about what you know. As in, if you have only heard one of the subs, feel free to comment away on that one sub. I think it's pointless for you however to post about the other brands that you haven't heard. Not to mention, what you discussed was not only negative in connotation, but it's not verifiable with any measurements. It's just someone's subjective opinion. It can and probably will vary wildly between people. Again-post on the Rythmik and let us all know about it, just don't discuss other subs or items based on pure hearsay and expect not to catch crap about it. I imagine the OP is intelligent enough to assimilate our opinions on the subs we each individually know about and form his own assessment. We should at least afford him that until he proves differently, don't you think?

 

[GranteedEV]

This is my last post.
You have not heard both, neither have I. If he is asking about 2 subs... the only person that should be able to answer, according to certain people, are the ones that have heard both subs.

Wrong! what we hear can be correlated to measurements such as, but not limited to, group delay, harmonic distortion, power compression, decay, and IMD. If you can measure the difference you then apply it to its correlation with the limits of human hearing.

so if we can hear abou 25ms group delay but not 15, then even if a ryhmik sealed sub has 3 ms of group delay at 20hz and an svs ported sub in low tuning has 15ms at 20hz then we can declare that properly eqed and damped both subs have the same amount of audible group delay!

svs subs in low tunings are not boomy or sloppy unless poorly placed. in sq measurements they do not measure as amazingly well as rythmiks but you also must correlate those with controlled audibility tests. otherwise your opinion is hearsay.

If. you can prove it with objective results then it's consistently repeatable... otherwise it cannot be verified.

With subwoofers, room/boundary/placement/tuning are such strong variables that you need to stick to what you can repeatably measure.

 

[cantonguy]

Wrong! what we hear can be correlated to measurements such as, but not limited to, group delay, harmonic distortion, power compression, decay, and IMD. If you can measure the difference you then apply it to its correlation with the limits of human hearing.

so if we can hear abou 25ms group delay but not 15, then even if a ryhmik sealed sub has 3 ms of group delay at 20hz and an svs ported sub in low tuning has 15ms at 20hz then we can declare that properly eqed and damped both subs have the same amount of audible group delay!

svs subs in low tunings are not boomy or sloppy unless poorly placed. in sq measurements they do not measure as amazingly well as rythmiks but you also must correlate those with controlled audibility tests. otherwise your opinion is hearsay.

If. you can prove it with objective results then it's consistently repeatable... otherwise it cannot be verified.

With subwoofers, room/boundary/placement/tuning are such strong variables that you need to stick to what you can repeatably measure.

This is an intelligent response.

 

[trnqk7]

Yes it is, but you provided none of the background that he did.

 

[cantonguy]

You didn't read my post very well. I never suggested you shouldn't post about what you know. As in, if you have only heard one of the subs, feel free to comment away on that one sub. I think it's pointless for you however to post about the other brands that you haven't heard. Not to mention, what you discussed was not only negative in connotation, but it's not verifiable with any measurements. It's just someone's subjective opinion. It can and probably will vary wildly between people. Again-post on the Rythmik and let us all know about it, just don't discuss other subs or items based on pure hearsay and expect not to catch crap about it. I imagine the OP is intelligent enough to assimilate our opinions on the subs we each individually know about and form his own assessment. We should at least afford him that until he proves differently, don't you think?

Why is it negative in connotation? I didn't soften the words enough for you?
sub "A" is more sloppy than sub "B" does NOT = sub A is bad

The connotation was not negative. Your perception of my statement was that I was saying something negative. My house is really clean. My sister's house is clean, but not as clean as mine...hers is more sloppy.

Kind of like the word retard. I have two retarded cousins. I don't perceive that as mean... labeling them retards. That's what they are. Over time people PERCEIVED the word to be negative. Thus why we have words like "mentally challenged". Once again, the softening of language because people are too sensitive.

 

[j_garcia]

While we can compare specs, the performance of each sub will still be affected by the room they are listened to in, so unless they are compared under the same conditions (in the same room, calibrated to the same level) then it really is tough to adequately compare how they actually sound. I've heard the Ultra a number of times. I've heard the Rythmik 12". I know what my sub sounds like, but I've never heard each of them in my own setup, so I can only give an impression of them based on what I have heard. I like them all, and based on the conditions that I have heard each in, I have an idea of what they will do in a similar sized room, but there is no way to really know what it will sound like in a given room without putting one in there and listening to it because there are too many factors that play into it.

This discussion has gotten FAR off topic IMHO, and isn't really likely to help the OP make a decision. If you want to discuss semantics, start another thread.

 

[Ron Temple]

While we can compare specs, the performance of each sub will still be affected by the room they are listened to in, so unless they are compared under the same conditions (in the same room, calibrated to the same level) then it really is tough to adequately compare how they actually sound. I've heard the Ultra a number of times. I've heard the Rythmik 12". I know what my sub sounds like, but I've never heard each of them in my own setup, so I can only give an impression of them based on what I have heard. I like them all, and based on the conditions that I have heard each in, I have an idea of what they will do in a similar sized room, but there is no way to really know what it will sound like in a given room without putting one in there and listening to it because there are too many factors that play into it.

This discussion has gotten FAR off topic IMHO, and isn't really likely to help the OP make a decision. If you want to discuss semantics, start another thread.

I posted on that thread at AVS after some of the flame. I own the Ultra13 and have heard other subs that I would put in it's class for sound quality. John's response was to the point. What you hear is the room and the rig. I haven't heard anything better than my sub. I've heard different, but equally good. I might prefer another sub, if I put it in my room and switched back and forth to establish a preference. I've found, however, that different material changes preferences and those preferences are hard to establish.

As far as the new Rythmik sounding better...it might...it might not, but it surely would be different. All I can say, is that the Ultra13 sounds great and is still regarded as a best in class in the commercial world. A sloppy or muddy U13 means it's not setup right and any sub can sound that way under those conditions.

 

[cantonguy]

I posted on that thread at AVS after some of the flame. I own the Ultra13 and have heard other subs that I would put in it's class for sound quality. John's response was to the point. What you hear is the room and the rig. I haven't heard anything better than my sub. I've heard different, but equally good. I might prefer another sub, if I put it in my room and switched back and forth to establish a preference. I've found, however, that different material changes preferences and those preferences are hard to establish.

As far as the new Rythmik sounding better...it might...it might not, but it surely would be different. All I can say, is that the Ultra13 sounds great and is still regarded as a best in class in the commercial world. A sloppy or muddy U13 means it's not setup right and any sub can sound that way under those conditions.

I appreciate the input and I now know a lot more. I wish I could listen to this sub. Unfortunately, living in South Dakota, doesn't lend itself to many people with this level of interest in audio.
Would you say that when it comes to subs at this price point it may be better to base your decision on other things such as appearance or size? It seems that if there are so many subs that sound good when set up correctly, choosing based on other factors would be the best way to decide.That is how I decided on the Rythmik F15SE... It was between Rythmik, Ed, and HSU... I went with the Rythmik because I liked the appearance better. Right or wrong, that's what ended up helping me decide.

 

[FirstReflection]

LOL

Forums can be helpful, but also very silly.

It's very often a big echo chamber. Literally ONE person can make a post and then, very quickly, there are a bunch of forum people spreading the contents of that one post all over the place. It becomes "knowledge", and yet it all just stemmed from ONE person's opinion.

It's ridiculous, really.

Audio can be the toughest. There are no clear industry standards like there are for video. We can take the SMPTE and ISF standards for video, measure them and compare whether a display closely matches those standards or doesn't. With audio, all we have is opinion. Even the famous NRC studies and the conclusions that were drawn about how a "good" speaker measures in an anechoic chamber were based upon the opinions of groups of listeners. There were outliers in those groups - people who preferred the sound of speakers that the group in general didn't prefer.

Then there are all the limitations of human hearing. Plus that massively powerful processor that we call the human brain. Things that can be measured with a single microphone are not interpreted by our brains the way that we see them on a pretty graph.

Then there's the placebo effect. Literally nothing changes and yet we SWEAR that we hear something different because we SEE something different or we are TOLD that there is a difference.

What does all of this have to do with the original post?

We suck at hearing bass. That's what.

As humans, we suck at hearing bass. We can't tell where it's coming from. We can't distinguish very well between harmonics. We can't tell distortion from the original sound very well at all. We vary WILDLY in our ability to hear bass at different sound pressure levels.

We suck at hearing bass. And it's actually rather silly to sit around debating about "sound quality" when it comes to bass. We detect transients (stops and starts) better than a constant bass tone. So in terms of what constitutes "sound quality" that's about the only important thing other than sheer extension and output.

When truly double-blind listening tests are conducted, the results are always the same - people have a hell of a hard time telling audio equipment apart! Even with components that can be effectively measured as being different. Human hearing and the human brain does all sorts of things that measurements don't agree with.

The biggest thing I can say is: GET OVER IT.

To the OP - you probably have a subwoofer brand that you are hoping people will tell you to buy. Buy that one! If you were to compare them blind, you probably wouldn't be able to tell any of those three apart anyway!

Now, if you could SEE the subwoofers or you were TOLD which one was playing, you'd swear up and down that one of them was better. You know what? It's going to be the one that you are already HOPING is better.

Buy that one.

Honestly, it makes extremely little difference.

If you are already leaning towards the SVS, then get it. If you are already leaning towards the eD, then get that one. If you are already leaning towards the Rythmik, then get the Rythmik. If you don't, all you're ever going to do is WISH that you had bought the one you're already leaning towards because you'll always wonder if your "instincts" would have been right.

For everyone else: get over it. You probably haven't heard all of these different subs. You almost certainly haven't compared them in a double blind test. And if you DID compare them in a double-blind test, your human hearing wouldn't allow you to tell them apart very well anyway!

It doesn't matter. If you favor any given brand - that's fine! Get that one.

We suck at hearing bass.

 

[Matt34]

Caution:

Side-effects to owning an I.D sub may include but are not limited to:

1. Thin skin when it comes to criticism.

2. Unbridled urge to speak out against said criticism.

3. Blurring the lines between objective data and editorial comments/opinions.

*See your doctor if symptoms persist beyond ownership of said sub.

 

[cantonguy]

LOL

Forums can be helpful, but also very silly.

It's very often a big echo chamber. Literally ONE person can make a post and then, very quickly, there are a bunch of forum people spreading the contents of that one post all over the place. It becomes "knowledge", and yet it all just stemmed from ONE person's opinion.

It's ridiculous, really.

Audio can be the toughest. There are no clear industry standards like there are for video. We can take the SMPTE and ISF standards for video, measure them and compare whether a display closely matches those standards or doesn't. With audio, all we have is opinion. Even the famous NRC studies and the conclusions that were drawn about how a "good" speaker measures in an anechoic chamber were based upon the opinions of groups of listeners. There were outliers in those groups - people who preferred the sound of speakers that the group in general didn't prefer.

Then there are all the limitations of human hearing. Plus that massively powerful processor that we call the human brain. Things that can be measured with a single microphone are not interpreted by our brains the way that we see them on a pretty graph.

Then there's the placebo effect. Literally nothing changes and yet we SWEAR that we hear something different because we SEE something different or we are TOLD that there is a difference.

What does all of this have to do with the original post?

We suck at hearing bass. That's what.

As humans, we suck at hearing bass. We can't tell where it's coming from. We can't distinguish very well between harmonics. We can't tell distortion from the original sound very well at all. We vary WILDLY in our ability to hear bass at different sound pressure levels.

We suck at hearing bass. And it's actually rather silly to sit around debating about "sound quality" when it comes to bass. We detect transients (stops and starts) better than a constant bass tone. So in terms of what constitutes "sound quality" that's about the only important thing other than sheer extension and output.

When truly double-blind listening tests are conducted, the results are always the same - people have a hell of a hard time telling audio equipment apart! Even with components that can be effectively measured as being different. Human hearing and the human brain does all sorts of things that measurements don't agree with.

The biggest thing I can say is: GET OVER IT.

To the OP - you probably have a subwoofer brand that you are hoping people will tell you to buy. Buy that one! If you were to compare them blind, you probably wouldn't be able to tell any of those three apart anyway!

Now, if you could SEE the subwoofers or you were TOLD which one was playing, you'd swear up and down that one of them was better. You know what? It's going to be the one that you are already HOPING is better.

Buy that one.

Honestly, it makes extremely little difference.

If you are already leaning towards the SVS, then get it. If you are already leaning towards the eD, then get that one. If you are already leaning towards the Rythmik, then get the Rythmik. If you don't, all you're ever going to do is WISH that you had bought the one you're already leaning towards because you'll always wonder if your "instincts" would have been right.

For everyone else: get over it. You probably haven't heard all of these different subs. You almost certainly haven't compared them in a double blind test. And if you DID compare them in a double-blind test, your human hearing wouldn't allow you to tell them apart very well anyway!

It doesn't matter. If you favor any given brand - that's fine! Get that one.

We suck at hearing bass.

In the 4 months I have been reading these forums on a daily basis... this is by far my favorite post. Nicely done my man.

 

[bobr1952]

LOL

Forums can be helpful, but also very silly.

It's very often a big echo chamber. Literally ONE person can make a post and then, very quickly, there are a bunch of forum people spreading the contents of that one post all over the place. It becomes "knowledge", and yet it all just stemmed from ONE person's opinion.

It's ridiculous, really.

Audio can be the toughest. There are no clear industry standards like there are for video. We can take the SMPTE and ISF standards for video, measure them and compare whether a display closely matches those standards or doesn't. With audio, all we have is opinion. Even the famous NRC studies and the conclusions that were drawn about how a "good" speaker measures in an anechoic chamber were based upon the opinions of groups of listeners. There were outliers in those groups - people who preferred the sound of speakers that the group in general didn't prefer.

Then there are all the limitations of human hearing. Plus that massively powerful processor that we call the human brain. Things that can be measured with a single microphone are not interpreted by our brains the way that we see them on a pretty graph.

Then there's the placebo effect. Literally nothing changes and yet we SWEAR that we hear something different because we SEE something different or we are TOLD that there is a difference.

What does all of this have to do with the original post?

We suck at hearing bass. That's what.

As humans, we suck at hearing bass. We can't tell where it's coming from. We can't distinguish very well between harmonics. We can't tell distortion from the original sound very well at all. We vary WILDLY in our ability to hear bass at different sound pressure levels.

We suck at hearing bass. And it's actually rather silly to sit around debating about "sound quality" when it comes to bass. We detect transients (stops and starts) better than a constant bass tone. So in terms of what constitutes "sound quality" that's about the only important thing other than sheer extension and output.

When truly double-blind listening tests are conducted, the results are always the same - people have a hell of a hard time telling audio equipment apart! Even with components that can be effectively measured as being different. Human hearing and the human brain does all sorts of things that measurements don't agree with.

The biggest thing I can say is: GET OVER IT.

To the OP - you probably have a subwoofer brand that you are hoping people will tell you to buy. Buy that one! If you were to compare them blind, you probably wouldn't be able to tell any of those three apart anyway!

Now, if you could SEE the subwoofers or you were TOLD which one was playing, you'd swear up and down that one of them was better. You know what? It's going to be the one that you are already HOPING is better.

Buy that one.

Honestly, it makes extremely little difference.

If you are already leaning towards the SVS, then get it. If you are already leaning towards the eD, then get that one. If you are already leaning towards the Rythmik, then get the Rythmik. If you don't, all you're ever going to do is WISH that you had bought the one you're already leaning towards because you'll always wonder if your "instincts" would have been right.

For everyone else: get over it. You probably haven't heard all of these different subs. You almost certainly haven't compared them in a double blind test. And if you DID compare them in a double-blind test, your human hearing wouldn't allow you to tell them apart very well anyway!

It doesn't matter. If you favor any given brand - that's fine! Get that one.

We suck at hearing bass.

I think you nailed it for a lot of people--I know I definitely fall into the "Wish that you had bought the one you're leaning towards" I think I have been reading so many of these posts here and at SVS that I don't even remember what sub I was leaning towards anymore. But like a lot of those in search of a sub, SVS, Hsu, and Rythmik are the main ones in my mix. Funny how easy it was for me to settle on the Aperion Verus Grand Towers--no hesitation whatsoever--but this sub quest is killing me.

 

[j_garcia]

The way I see it is: if you are looking at HSU, SVS, Rythmik, eD, etc... Chances are very good that no matter which you choose, you won't really be disappointed. Half the battle is already won just because you have done enough research to arrive at those choices so you almost can't go wrong.

 

[its phillip]

Yeah. Don't fall into the paralysis by analysis trap