Harman Research vs Consumer Product Development Are They Related?

gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
A talking point of a YouTube Video we did last year covering loudspeaker myths put in question whether the research loudspeaker companies claim to do actually trickles into their products. A subscriber pondered this question about Harman, claiming their consumer products are often "decidedly average" despite all of the incredible research they produce. I gave this statement some thought and responded on our channel but also elaborated further in this editorial. While products come and go, knowledge is forever. On that point alone, Harman should be commended for their research regardless of what one thinks about a particular product they produce at the moment or if their research always benefits their products.



Read: Harman Research vs Consumer Product Development Are They Related?

What do you think?
 
T

Tumara Baap

Enthusiast
A profitable company must carefully penetrate each market segment. I'm sure Harman makes ear buds and portable bluetooth speakers. I'm sure high school kids buy them and it makes Harman money. Nothing wrong with that. But I would never buy them. For my stereo listening I have a pair of professional JBL LSR6328p studio monitors. And these are made by Harman. More importantly, they could only have been made by Harman. Nothing against Wilson Audio or Sonus Faber, but I doubt there is any consumer level speaker that is in the league of these pro monitors. Brand perception is a peculiar phenomenon, because so often it has little correlation with how good a product really is.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Well, you didn't specify the particulars of Harman's research but I have some random, somewhat disjointed thoughts.

My quickie summation is that Harman advocates 4th order crossovers which improves power handling and minimizes the possibility of breakups. To that we add a flat frequency response as well as uniform off-axis behavior. One can expand on that core by adding low distortion, good waterfalls, and so on. As I see it, that's pretty much what's trotted out there and what Olive blogs about. It's what he'll talk about if you catch him at a convention. From time to time he'll make a guest appearance at various websites and forums to draw attention to some work he's recently done much like a campaigner pressing the flesh during election season.

The idea in all of this is that is largely twofold. One, is that their studies using trained listeners and even untrained tend to support speakers that exemplify the above criteria are rated higher. Secondly, such speakers don't require anything additional in the way of room treatments since they've been tested in rooms which were designed to mimic what the average room has in the way of furnishings and acoustic properties. Just like the ubiquitous rotisserie sold by Ron Popeil, it's a set it and forget it approach.

Speaking strictly of pistonic speakers, this speaker design approach is embodied in Harman's top of the line Revel as well as the lower priced Infinity. AFAIK, if there's a trickle down effect to their other lower priced lines, I'm not aware of it and it doesn't seem to be promoted. The end result is we've got a bunch of other speakers that are OK.NAND some are more OK than others.

As I see it, the above is the public face of Harman's research. But I can't help that there's also a private side that's not disclosed. Is it bracing to move cabinet resonances to higher, less objectionable regions? Is it mitigation of the back wave, spreading out the back wave by radiusing the inside of the driver holes, is it, is it, is it?

Chef Morimoto can give you the ingredient list for one of his dishes but good luck trying to knock it out of the park like he does. So, I get the feeling, and it's just a feeling mind you, that the public, and for that matter some speaker designers, are being given just the basics.

I also have some reservations about their testing methods. Not so much the use of one speaker because it is more discriminating, but for other reasons.

One thing that troubles me is that in their testing facility, speakers are tested using a rapid switch shuttle system where each speaker is moved into the same location. From my POV, one needs to determine for themselves, what the optimum location and orientation of a speaker is in their own listening room. Might that change the rankings?

Dipoles, which Harman doesn't care for, need some room treatment above and beyond. The testing facility doesn't accommodate that.

Also, so long as Harman defines who their competitors are, B&W, Polk, Martin Logan, etc., it remains to be seen whether other brands like Paradigm, PSB, KEF, and various well regarded ID brands would score. Kind of like in Rocky III, when he realizes Mick has been picking easy fights.

And that's all I have to say about that.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Well, you didn't specify the particulars of Harman's research but I have some random, somewhat disjointed thoughts.

My quickie summation is that Harman advocates 4th order crossovers which improves power handling and minimizes the possibility of breakups. To that we add a flat frequency response as well as uniform off-axis behavior. One can expand on that core by adding low distortion, good waterfalls, and so on. As I see it, that's pretty much what's trotted out there and what Olive blogs about. It's what he'll talk about if you catch him at a convention. From time to time he'll make a guest appearance at various websites and forums to draw attention to some work he's recently done much like a campaigner pressing the flesh during election season.

The idea in all of this is that is largely twofold. One, is that their studies using trained listeners and even untrained tend to support speakers that exemplify the above criteria are rated higher. Secondly, such speakers don't require anything additional in the way of room treatments since they've been tested in rooms which were designed to mimic what the average room has in the way of furnishings and acoustic properties. Just like the ubiquitous rotisserie sold by Ron Popeil, it's a set it and forget it approach.

Speaking strictly of pistonic speakers, this speaker design approach is embodied in Harman's top of the line Revel as well as the lower priced Infinity. AFAIK, if there's a trickle down effect to their other lower priced lines, I'm not aware of it and it doesn't seem to be promoted. The end result is we've got a bunch of other speakers that are OK.NAND some are more OK than others.

As I see it, the above is the public face of Harman's research. But I can't help that there's also a private side that's not disclosed. Is it bracing to move cabinet resonances to higher, less objectionable regions? Is it mitigation of the back wave, spreading out the back wave by radiusing the inside of the driver holes, is it, is it, is it?

Chef Morimoto can give you the ingredient list for one of his dishes but good luck trying to knock it out of the park like he does. So, I get the feeling, and it's just a feeling mind you, that the public, and for that matter some speaker designers, are being given just the basics.

I also have some reservations about their testing methods. Not so much the use of one speaker because it is more discriminating, but for other reasons.

One thing that troubles me is that in their testing facility, speakers are tested using a rapid switch shuttle system where each speaker is moved into the same location. From my POV, one needs to determine for themselves, what the optimum location and orientation of a speaker is in their own listening room. Might that change the rankings?

Dipoles, which Harman doesn't care for, need some room treatment above and beyond. The testing facility doesn't accommodate that.

Also, so long as Harman defines who their competitors are, B&W, Polk, Martin Logan, etc., it remains to be seen whether other brands like Paradigm, PSB, KEF, and various well regarded ID brands would score. Kind of like in Rocky III, when he realizes Mick has been picking easy fights.

And that's all I have to say about that.
Excellent points! Yes they seem to primarily target the brands you mentioned. Also a speaker like an ML will not do well being placed in the middle of the room without a backwall. I also think the advantage an ESL offers is primarily heard in stereo listening which of course isn't done in their testing. According to Dr. Sean Olive and Dr. Floyd Toole their testing has revealed a speaker that wins in mono ALWAYS wins in stereo.

In any event, I will have to visit their facilities one of these days and run through their testing. I'm not one that takes things at face value. I need to see/hear it for myself. And quite frankly, I want a chance to check out their awesome facility firsthand so if the opportunity presents itself, I am there!
 
Last edited:
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
I have some other thoughts I'll put out later.
 
F

Frank Malitz

Audiophyte
At the outset, know that the designer's credentials are to be ignored. I can give so many examples, it would take pages to reply. Let's get specific with a few examples. When I started Onkyo USA in March of 1976, I was surprised to find out Onkyo was one of the world's largest OEM speaker manufacturers. We had mainframes crunching numbers, laser interferometry, one of the largest anechioc chambers and patents galore yet we could not make a decent Onkyo-branded loudspeaker. There were two reasons why: 1) they couldn't hear. This is very serious. We had one attempt at a high-end design with flat diaphragms that was quite impressive but it had a honk in the midrange that my marketing guy, Ken Furst, and I could easily hear. No one at Onkyo noticed it and therefore had no chance to correct the voicing. 2) I discussed this with their new-at-the-time chief acousticion. He admitted that they could do more tests than almost any other company yet could not interpret the results! How about dunleavy who claimed to design his products scientifically--step response and all that, yet his SC-4 was reticent in the top end. It took the dealers a year of kvetching to get him to open up the top end. Furthmore, his SC-2 sounded nothing like the SC-4a, the improved version of the SC-4. Grade headphones all sound similar, only more refined as you go up in price. The designer is obviously a genius. If we knew the actual science, how come the Dunleavys couldn't have a family sound? Most brands are like this including sacred cows like B&W. How come no Quad speaker approaches the accuracy of the original Quad? The fact is there are maybe a dozen guys who know this stuff world-wide. The rest are simply too limited in their cause and effect knowledge to design a proper really accurate loudspeaker. When I was at Harman, I argued with certain designers who were simply wrong despite their PhDs. I cannot go into detail because I may be doing business with those individuals down the road. Let me simply say this: listen for yourself. Never ever trust a reviewer. Industry veterans know all this. Listen and decide. Use the right amp, but listen first and read all you want after you form your opinion.
 
P

Pat D

Audioholic
At the outset, know that the designer's credentials are to be ignored. I can give so many examples, it would take pages to reply. Let's get specific with a few examples. When I started Onkyo USA in March of 1976, I was surprised to find out Onkyo was one of the world's largest OEM speaker manufacturers. We had mainframes crunching numbers, laser interferometry, one of the largest anechioc chambers and patents galore yet we could not make a decent Onkyo-branded loudspeaker. There were two reasons why: 1) they couldn't hear. This is very serious. We had one attempt at a high-end design with flat diaphragms that was quite impressive but it had a honk in the midrange that my marketing guy, Ken Furst, and I could easily hear. No one at Onkyo noticed it and therefore had no chance to correct the voicing. 2) I discussed this with their new-at-the-time chief acousticion. He admitted that they could do more tests than almost any other company yet could not interpret the results! How about dunleavy who claimed to design his products scientifically--step response and all that, yet his SC-4 was reticent in the top end. It took the dealers a year of kvetching to get him to open up the top end. Furthmore, his SC-2 sounded nothing like the SC-4a, the improved version of the SC-4. Grade headphones all sound similar, only more refined as you go up in price. The designer is obviously a genius. If we knew the actual science, how come the Dunleavys couldn't have a family sound? Most brands are like this including sacred cows like B&W. How come no Quad speaker approaches the accuracy of the original Quad? The fact is there are maybe a dozen guys who know this stuff world-wide. The rest are simply too limited in their cause and effect knowledge to design a proper really accurate loudspeaker. When I was at Harman, I argued with certain designers who were simply wrong despite their PhDs. I cannot go into detail because I may be doing business with those individuals down the road. Let me simply say this: listen for yourself. Never ever trust a reviewer. Industry veterans know all this. Listen and decide. Use the right amp, but listen first and read all you want after you form your opinion.
Those of us who are consumers need some way to figure out what speakers to seek out and audition. Now, we may stick wth what the local dealers carry, and among those, what the dealer suggests for audition. For those willing to travel, or who do travel sometimes, reviewers can be a great help. It's not a matter of trusting the reviewer, in the sense of choosing your speakers for you, but for providing reasons to seek out and audition particular speakers. They can also provide some sense of what sorts of things are available and how good they are. I have found some reviewers who seem so like the same sorts of speakers I do (sorry, but none of the Audioholics crew are among them) and my favorite speaker reviewers also do measurements. I find the measurements done by the NRC for Soundstage to be the most useful.

But no matter what, the speakers we look at are a selection of what is available, and I prefer to have some control over that selection process. Then, I can listen and decide, and sorry, I probably have done some reading before figuring out what to audition. And let me assure you, I DO audition with a variety of program materials chosen to show me the differences between speakers.

I do have to laugh a bit when you suggest the original Quad ESL is particularly accurate. It was better than most speakers for quite a while, as long as you did not want much bass, or to play them very loud, or wanted to have them sound good outside the sweet spot. I know also that Quad owners have done various tweeks to improve the FR, and have added supertweeters and subwoofers. Don't get me wrong, I like the original Quad ESL (not enough to buy a pair--some people will build them for you), but it is not more accurate than subsequent Quads. I used to have a pair of Quad ESL-63s, later with a subwoofer, but on the whole, my present dynamic speakers, also with the subwoofer, are better in most respects, especially in that even more recordings sound good over them. They are also much easier to place.
 
F

Floyd Toole

Acoustician and Wine Connoisseur
As there is interest in understanding the scientific process of audio research, I can recommend spending an hour experiencing a recent invited lecture of mine at McGill University. It is not the entire story, but it covers more than the basics. My book has much more.
Because I cannot publish a direct link, go to YouTube, type in Floyd Toole, and click on the Sound Reproduction - Art and Science, Opinions and Facts feature. It is a CIRMMT video production. Enjoy.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
First of all, Huge thank to Dr. Toole to educate us continuously both directly through books, publications and indirectly by consulting on AH articles.
This video is blast to watch and almost anyone should easily pick up most of it.

What left me wanting is, I am dying to know which were the $1800/pr speakers you had mentioned in that lecture?
 
F

Floyd Toole

Acoustician and Wine Connoisseur
The mystery speaker was a long-ago-discontinued Infinity Interlude floor stander - I forget the model number. It is a great example of what competent engineering can accomplish at reasonable prices. It could be, but isn't, common. The sacrifice to the consumer was a plain vinyl-wrapped rectangular box and an inability to play as loud as larger and/or more expensive, systems. But for the vast majority of customers it would be just fine.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
The mystery speaker was a long-ago-discontinued Infinity Interlude floor stander - I forget the model number. It is a great example of what competent engineering can accomplish at reasonable prices. It could be, but isn't, common. The sacrifice to the consumer was a plain vinyl-wrapped rectangular box and an inability to play as loud as larger and/or more expensive, systems. But for the vast majority of customers it would be just fine.
Could it these Infinity Speakers Interlude IL50 Tower [with Active Subwoofer] ?
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649079441-infinity_speakers_interlude_il50_toweractive_subwoofer_bookshelf_primus_p150_and_center_primus_c25/images/623117/
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
As there is interest in understanding the scientific process of audio research, I can recommend spending an hour experiencing a recent invited lecture of mine at McGill University. It is not the entire story, but it covers more than the basics. My book has much more.
Because I cannot publish a direct link, go to YouTube, type in Floyd Toole, and click on the Sound Reproduction - Art and Science, Opinions and Facts feature. It is a CIRMMT video production. Enjoy.
Floyd;

Many thanks for chiming in on our forum. I updated your forum title and also upped your post count so you can now add links.
 
F

Floyd Toole

Acoustician and Wine Connoisseur
Thanks Gene. Wine connoisseur might be a bit strong. I do drink a lot of wine, and I know what I like - but I almost never do blind tests :)

And "Bored . . ." I remember this as being a passive system, but my memory may be faulty.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Thanks Gene. Wine connoisseur might be a bit strong. I do drink a lot of wine, and I know what I like - but I almost never do blind tests :)

And "Bored . . ." I remember this as being a passive system, but my memory may be faulty.
Floyd;

I think we can make an exception about following a strict protocol when testing wines. What is more important is the people you share it with and the memories forged or sometimes forgotten if it was a really good night ;)
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Thanks Gene. Wine connoisseur might be a bit strong. I do drink a lot of wine, and I know what I like - but I almost never do blind tests :)

And "Bored . . ." I remember this as being a passive system, but my memory may be faulty.
If I recall correctly Infinity Prelude MTS was a high ranking speaker for its time and perhaps some of the best stuff Infinity has made to date.
 
R

riker1384

Junior Audioholic
Infinity IL50 is $1700 according to audioreview.com, that's the closest Interlude to $1800. Right now there's a pair of IL40's selling pretty cheap locally that I want to try, but I have too many good speakers already so I shouldn't.

Near the end of the video he mentions consistency. I've always wondered about that. It seems questionable that magazines get handpicked samples from the manufacturers. They ought to get credit to buy a random pair from a store or the Internet. Of course I can imagine that approach isn't practical with a $100K speaker (imagine the restocking fee), but with cheaper ones it seems the best thing to do.

Boutique manufacturers aside, is consistency ever a significant problem with respected mass-produced audiophile speaker brands?
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Infinity IL50 is $1700 according to audioreview.com, that's the closest Interlude to $1800. Right now there's a pair of IL40's selling pretty cheap locally that I want to try, but I have too many good speakers already so I shouldn't.

Near the end of the video he mentions consistency. I've always wondered about that. It seems questionable that magazines get handpicked samples from the manufacturers. They ought to get credit to buy a random pair from a store or the Internet. Of course I can imagine that approach isn't practical with a $100K speaker (imagine the restocking fee), but with cheaper ones it seems the best thing to do.

Boutique manufacturers aside, is consistency ever a significant problem with respected mass-produced audiophile speaker brands?

There is some cause for concern that manufacturers can cherry pick review samples. It's happened in the past.

However your dillusional to think it's economically feasible for review magazines to buy products to review to elimitate the possibility of receiving golden units.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
However your delusional to think it's economically feasible for review magazines to buy products to review to eliminate the possibility of receiving golden units.
Hmm, I believe he said "get credit" as in the company gives the review mag a "store credit" to buy a random pair of speakers to review and then return.

Still wouldn't work, but for the sake of clarity :D
 

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