Harman Research vs Consumer Product Development Are They Related?

C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Excellent points! Yes they seem to primarily target the brands you mentioned. Also a speaker like an ML will not do well being placed in the middle of the room without a backwall. I also think the advantage an ESL offers is primarily heard in stereo listening which of course isn't done in their testing. According to Dr. Sean Olive and Dr. Floyd Toole their testing has revealed a speaker that wins in mono ALWAYS wins in stereo.

In any event, I will have to visit their facilities one of these days and run through their testing. I'm not one that takes things at face value. I need to see/hear it for myself. And quite frankly, I want a chance to check out their awesome facility firsthand so if the opportunity presents itself, I am there!
A walk into the lion's den! I'd be curious how the ability to determine preference varies with musical selection. Just as I'm leery when I see an infomercial, I'm also leery about the musical selections. For example, pick any number of C&W tunes - Concrete Angel by Martina McBride, Holy Water by Big and Rich, Seven Spanish Angels by Willie Nelson - what happens? Maybe some Spanish Salsa by groups like El Grand Combo or the late Cal Tjader. Electronica? BB King? Asian or Indian top 40?

Does it pass the two or three beer test? Come home from work and knock down a couple of beers or maybe cocktails. What happens?

I had issues with Olive's conclusions with testing teenagers where he stated they also can discern better performing speakers. Well, that's great except they're dead broke, a significant portion live with mommy and daddy (squatters), and they're heavily influenced by celebrity endorsements. Also, if you watch kids or millenials, even Gen Y, they rarely just plop down to listen to tunes. They're multitaskers. Tunes are playing, on a stereo maybe, and the tv is going, they're Facebooking, messaging, and so on. Like the Pepsi challenge. Pepsi wins because in their test, people sipped. In RL, people don't sip and as a result, other sensory factors come into play changing the preferences. So what happens when you're listening Gene and you're checking your iPad responding to emails and reading your blogs?

Further, how is preference affected by where the speaker abnormalities are WRT frequency ranges?

How's about you bring a speaker of your choice to the comparo?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I just finished watching the Floyd Toole video. It was great, and I hope many others watch it. Dr. Toole, and his colleague Sean Olive, are the pioneers of measuring human reactions to loudspeakers. This video nicely summarized their major findings about what makes loudspeakers sound good to listeners.

And if anyone still doubts the validity of blind testing of audio products, they should pay close attention to Dr. Toole's talk.
I think we can make an exception about following a strict protocol when testing wines.
It's funny that people who like wine all seem to agree that blind tasting has merit. I wish the audiophile world had that same spirit.
 
Last edited:
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
No
Hmm, I believe he said "get credit" as in the company gives the review mag a "store credit" to buy a random pair of speakers to review and then return.

Still wouldn't work, but for the sake of clarity :D
No store I know of will go for such an arrangement of loaning a brand new pair of speakers to a review magazine and then taking them back as Bstock to sell to their customers at a significantly reduced price. It's also not such a bad thing that a manufacturer thoroughly tests a product before sending it out for review. It helps reduce the odds of getting a lemon or the manufacturer from claiming the review sample was defective if they didn't like the outcome of a review.
 
F

Floyd Toole

Acoustician and Wine Connoisseur
Perhaps you could persuade the store that the speakers have been "broken in" by professionals and therefore could command a premium price ;)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Perhaps you could persuade the store that the speakers have been "broken in" by professionals and therefore could command a premium price ;)
It's a pleasure to see you participating on this forum, perhaps your first.
This is a tremendous suggestion, almost fell off my chair LOL. :D
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I had issues with Olive's conclusions with testing teenagers where he stated they also can discern better performing speakers.
I'm not sure I understand your question. He said students were the worst (among the various groups on that slide) at providing consistent answers to blind listening tests. But despite that, all groups, no matter how consistent or inconsistent, agreed on the relative rankings of speakers in the test.

See slide 64 at 54:30 into the talk.

Categories of listeners (#) Listener Performance
Selected & trained (12) >90%
Retail sales (215) ~35%
Audio reviewers (6) ~20%
Brand sales & marketing (21) ~15%
Students (14) ~5%
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Perhaps you could persuade the store that the speakers have been "broken in" by professionals and therefore could command a premium price ;)
I like it. You may be on to something.

BTW we just put up a very basic video on Room Acoustics and plugged a certain book you may be familiar with. Have a look when you can.

 
R

randyb

Full Audioholic
This is great stuff! Great posts and to have Dr. Toole participate...excellent.
 
R

randyb

Full Audioholic
I'm not sure I understand your question. He said students were the worst (among the various groups on that slide) at providing consistent answers to blind listening tests. But despite that, all groups, no matter how consistent or inconsistent, agreed on the relative rankings of speakers in the test.

See slide 64 at 54:30 into the talk.

Categories of listeners (#) Listener Performance
Selected & trained (12) >90%
Retail sales (215) ~35%
Audio reviewers (6) ~20%
Brand sales & marketing (21) ~15%
Students (14) ~5%
Isn't Chu questioning a different study involving teenagers only and their preferences? Chu?
 
T

THXguru

Audiophyte
I’m no „industry veteran“ yet, but from my 10 years of audio industry experience, currently at a large audiophile brand, I can share some general insights about products, research, and costs.

Let’s start with the cost. As we know, most advanced HiFi/HighEnd/Audiophile products are sold through dealers who sell maybe a few units of a certain HighEnd product per month. For each, they have invested quite some time advising the customer and letting him listen back and forth, bring his own records, maybe even let him test-listen at home. Sometimes they go empty-handed if the customer changes his mind, or buys elsewhere. And if he buys here, he expects post-sales service, warranty and the like. All the time, the dealer has to pay salaries, store rent, inventory etc. That’s why often roughly half of the sales price (at least of the recommended price) goes to the dealer.

Next comes the distributor, importer, sales organization, or wholesale. They often carry a part or even all of the marketing and communication, and have to deal with customs, warehouse stock, transport costs and other things. This party may get half of the remaining budget, or 25% of the final price.

This leaves just something around 25% of the final price for the actual manufacturer. Most customers „eat with their eyes“, meaning that quite some money is spent on the packaging, brochures, commercials, trade shows, glossy finishing, exotic and high-grade housing materials and the like, which only have the purpose of making the product look/feel high-class. Next come all the fixed costs of the manufacturer, his taxes, real estate costs, costly equipment and machinery, salaries (for accounting, RESEARCH, etc.), which are not immediately linked to certain products and their quantities, which means that every product has to carry its share of these fixed costs. I’m not putting numbers on all of these items, but you can imagine that not much of the final price remains for the actual product costs: The development manyears, the hourly manufacturing wage per piece, and finally the BOM (bill of materials, the individual parts including their raw materials and cost of processing them). This doesn’t get better when, as usual, many components and sub-assemblies (say, a speaker driver) are bought from a third supplier (yes, they have the economy of scale on their side, but they also have their sales efforts and want a profit).

I believe you get my point: It is common that a 1000$ pair of speakers or headphones has transducers costing somewhere between 30 and 100$ (total for all transducers!). Of course, the other parts, the assembly and the cost of knowledge behind it all come on top. But most of the final price is needed for getting the finished product into the final customer’s head and home, like it or not. It is interesting to compare this with the professional audio guys: They are of course no-nonsense, no expensive design and packaging, no gadgets, only pure performance, reliable and neutral (in case of monitor speakers). The calculation and distribution is completely different, and as a result they get an incredible value for money, compared with consumer products.

Now let’s look at the output of a research department: Everyone would like really great innovations which are stunningly simple, yet groudbreaking, delivering lots of added value for very low cost. But let’s face it: This type of technological breakthrough doesn’t happen very often, though marketing tries to make you believe it. Instead, many innovations are very costly at first, and may or may not become more affordable over time or when used on a large scale. But you can’t assume that every research invention can easily trickle down through the product portfolio during the next few years. Also, most research efforts are high-risk or blue-sky, and have on average a rather low chance of making it into any product – that’s the nature of basic research, it’s the needle in the haystack. Since any company can only afford so much for research, it’s pretty much impossible to have something really new and groundbreaking in every product. A company can only try to get its expertise into every product so that it is as good as it can be, but even that is a challenge, especially when working with suppliers or OEMs.

Yes, some technologies make huge progress, such as computers, displays, mobile communications, optics, chemistry, nano tech and others. But that comes from insanely large research divisions which can only be afforded in industries with trillions of $ turnover. The audio industry, however, is decidedly smaller and less spectacular, also receiving much less public funding and attention. Also, the products are quite diverse, a mobile headset has quite different users and requirements compared to a large audiophile home system. The research going into the home system is almost not applicable to the headset, while the requirements e.g. for an OLED display are rather constant, no matter if it is to be used in a huge TV or in a wrist watch, apart from size and power consumption.

Another trend, which I’m not going into here much further, is that the traditional audiophile market is declining, while lifestyle and design products are growing. These can have great audio performance, too, but the focus of how the money is used continues to shift away from the core technology, like it or not. Small specialized manufacturers can afford to stick to the traditional audiophile „niche“, but larger ones have to follow these market trends.

I hope that this illustrates a bit why the great research results are not so often visible or audible in the stores.
 
F

Floyd Toole

Acoustician and Wine Connoisseur
THXguru's perspective is a good one. When the sole product is consumer loudspeakers the situation can indeed be tight. Many businesses have such challenges, especially in a changing market. The "perfect" high-end loudspeaker is worth building only if there are retailers who can sell it and people interested in buying it.

In Harman's case, a visit to www.harman.com will reveal that it is a huge, successful, diversified corporation with sales of about $4.2B, and over 12,000 employees worldwide. About 70% of total sales are into the automotive OEM market, most of that being infotainment, although premium audio systems figure into the total. The remainder is shared between consumer and professional audio. Of that only a tiny portion is medium-to-high-end consumer loudspeakers and professional monitors. That is why this company can afford to conduct real research, in addition to product development. New knowledge can affect products in several categories. Obviously, not all of the research effort is expended on any one product area.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Floyd,
Were you at Harman in the late '70s/early '80s?
The reason I ask is the huge change in engineering designs at the time.
1977 saw the L212, with its wide box, that was an IB to the HF, MF.
Then in 1982 (I think it was) the L250 arrived, with a completely oppposite engineering design. A tapered, inclined baffle, which I think is referred to a Point Source design. Producing a much better soundstage.

I always wondered if that design change was a result of your influence coming to Harman.
 
Last edited:
F

Floyd Toole

Acoustician and Wine Connoisseur
No, that was way before my time. I joined Harman International as Corporate VP Acoustical Engineering in 1991. I have never heard that described as "point source" design. It isn't a point source of course - that is a vanishingly small, totally omnidirectional sound radiator. It is an interesting academic concept, but impractical, and not necessary for sound reproduction.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
No, that was way before my time. I joined Harman International as Corporate VP Acoustical Engineering in 1991. I have never heard that described as "point source" design. It isn't a point source of course - that is a vanishingly small, totally omnidirectional sound radiator. It is an interesting academic concept, but impractical, and not necessary for sound reproduction.
It was years ago I saw someone use the term "point source"..I related it to the narrow baffles...apparently my wrong thought process.lol

But most certainly the design changes between the L212/L250 were huge. Must have been all Greg Timber's ongoing engineering progress/research in speaker designs.
Although, changing the L212 to be more like the L250 was not too difficult a task. Including building Biased XOs.
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top