My Next Stupid Question

Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I put the bulb in the thread title because stupid people with stupid ideas always act like they got the bull by the horns with their latest moronic thought. Anyways here goes ... I think I've heard of a company out there selling speaker wire where the gauge is different for the positive and negative conductors. Here's where my question applies to my world.

I've got this shiny black extension cord that looks all pretty but is 18 gauge 2 conductor and insulated ground. I want to use 1' lengths of it to go from a wall plate to a speaker. If I combine the 2 conductors to use as positive for an effective gauge of 15 and use the 18 gauge ground as the negative ... would that be alright?

I could just combine all 3 wires for a gauge of I guess 14.5 but then I would have two cables going from the wall plate which is probably what I will do but I didn't have anything better to do than ask stupid questions.

The question is academic! I'm not really this stupid. :p
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
I have wireless speakers. What gauge wire should I use? Does it matter if I get the polarity wrong?

This question has never been to school, so it is not academic. I really am this stupid.

Thanks for your attention.
 
STRONGBADF1

STRONGBADF1

Audioholic Spartan
I put the bulb in the thread title because stupid people with stupid ideas always act like they got the bull by the horns with their latest moronic thought. Anyways here goes ... I think I've heard of a company out there selling speaker wire where the gauge is different for the positive and negative conductors. Here's where my question applies to my world.

I've got this shiny black extension cord that looks all pretty but is 18 gauge 2 conductor and insulated ground. I want to use 1' lengths of it to go from a wall plate to a speaker. If I combine the 2 conductors to use as positive for an effective gauge of 15 and use the 18 gauge ground as the negative ... would that be alright?

I could just combine all 3 wires for a gauge of I guess 14.5 but then I would have two cables going from the wall plate which is probably what I will do but I didn't have anything better to do than ask stupid questions.

The question is academic! I'm not really this stupid. :p
I've never seen or heard of wire where the gauge is different for the positive and negative conductors...:confused: Interesting question... Waiting for Gene to write up a 2-3 pager!:)


I'll take this at it's word for now: http://www.webervst.com/gauge.htm

You'll be fine with that 18 gauge wire over one foot where you probably won't push more than a few watts.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Dan, that's pretty choice. What's freaky is that the back of Davemcc's equipment rack showed up. :eek: :D

I could have sworn Monster had wire like that that somebody posted about. :confused:
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
I've never seen or heard of wire where the gauge is different for the positive and negative conductors...:confused: Interesting question... Waiting for Gene to write up a 2-3 pager!:)


I'll take this at it's word for now: http://www.webervst.com/gauge.htm

You'll be fine with that 18 gauge wire over one foot where you probably won't push more than a few watts.
Just in case you guys aren't joking.:) That wouldn't work well for speaker wire and it's alternating current.
I've used over sized neutrals to combat overheating with harmonic loads (computers, fluorescent lighting, and VFD's.
I wonder why Doug's wire chart doesn't agree with Roger Russell's? http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable
 
STRONGBADF1

STRONGBADF1

Audioholic Spartan
Just in case you guys aren't joking.:) That wouldn't work well for speaker wire and it's alternating current.
I've used over sized neutrals to combat overheating with harmonic loads (computers, fluorescent lighting, and VFD's.
I wonder why Doug's wire chart doesn't agree with Roger Russell's? http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable
I just googled and that came up... that's why I said "I'll take this at it's word for now:":) This is the internet...I don't even trust myself here!:D

thanks for the link!:cool:
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I wonder why Doug's wire chart doesn't agree with Roger Russell's?
... and that doesn't agree with Gene's recommendations either.

I think they're using different criteria to determine the max distance but that's all beside the point. I just invited PENG to join us. That should get me an answer but it's starting to look more and more like I'm just going to use one length of cable for each pos and neg.

I was positive Monster did that uneven gauge thing though. :confused:
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I was watching TV but got summoned. Anyway I took a quick glance and noticed that while as you said they might have used slightly different criteria at least their results for the 10 and 12 AWG appeared to be the same. Gene was talking distance while the other one talked about total cable length for the pair.

As far as using two 18 gauge for one and one for the other, it is better than using just one for each but obviously not as good as using two for each.

Remember, as Gene said, it is mainly the total resistance that matters while inductance, capacitance and skin effect have some minor effects also. So I repeat, if you only have enough wire to double up one it is still good to do it but it is best to double up on both.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks Everybody

In the form of thanks I humbly submit some cable porn.
I just made these to prove I wasn't gonna do the lone 18 in conjunction with a dual 18. ;)









I told ya the shiny black jacket was pretty. Those are BJC Spades on three 18 gauge conductors which are probably equivalent to a 13.5 gauge. Whose not manly and sexy now? :p

Now the trick is to find a binding post that they fit on.

I'm not above using a nut and bolt. :eek:

GO-NAD! probably just fainted. :D
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
In the form of thanks I humbly submit some cable porn.
I just made these to prove I wasn't gonna do the lone 18 in conjunction with a dual 18. ;)

I told ya the shiny black jacket was pretty. Those are BJC Spades on three 18 gauge conductors which are probably equivalent to a 13.5 gauge. Whose not manly and sexy now? :p

Now the trick is to find a binding post that they fit on.

I'm not above using a nut and bolt. :eek:

GO-NAD! probably just fainted. :D
You're not wearing Spandex, are you?:eek:
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
In the form of thanks I humbly submit some cable porn.
I just made these to prove I wasn't gonna do the lone 18 in conjunction with a dual 18. ;)









I told ya the shiny black jacket was pretty. Those are BJC Spades on three 18 gauge conductors which are probably equivalent to a 13.5 gauge. Whose not manly and sexy now? :p

Now the trick is to find a binding post that they fit on.

I'm not above using a nut and bolt. :eek:

GO-NAD! probably just fainted. :D
I think I just came in my pants a little.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Umm, the one wearing flip-flops and white socks.:D
Ahhh yessss ... the distinguished gentleman in the Fedora ... MARKW !!! :)

You're not wearing Spandex, are you?:eek:
No ... but I have some in the trunk of the fofo.
I was considering using it as an acoustically transparent material.
You wear yours? :eek:

Here's where I got my bright idea:

That's because they [Monster] have separate gauges for both sides of the speaker wire. lol. And they put plastic in the middle so it's not really a true 16 gauge wire.
Searching for the above I found the below ...
I highlighted the part I like best. ;)

Davis, Fred E.
Effects of Cable, Loudspeaker, and Amplifier Interactions
(1991) J. Audio Eng. Soc.,Vol.39, No.6, pp 461-468

Abstract
Loudspeaker cables are among the least understood yet mandatory components of an audio system. How cables work and interact with loudspeaker and amplifier is often based more on presumption and speculation than on fact. The literature on loudspeaker cable behavior and effects is minimal. Measurements were made with 12 cables covering a variety of geometries, gauges, and types. The measured data indicate distinct differences among the cables as frequency-dependent impedance, subtle response variations with loudspeakers, and reactance interactions between amplifier, cable, and loudspeaker. In some cases the effects of the amplifier overwhelm the cable's effects. Mathematical models that provide insight into the interaction mechanisms were constructed and compared to the measured data.

Conclusions
If loudspeakers were only simple resistance, then large, low-resistance cables would not be a bad idea. However, loudspeaker systems exhibit frequency-dependent complex impedance that can interact with the reactive components of amplifier and cable. The best response was obtained with low-inductance cables and an amplifier with low-inductance output and a high, frequency-independent damping factor.

These tests have shown that the best way to achieve adequately low resistance and inductance in a cable is by using many independently insulated wires per conductor rather than one large wire. Efforts to reduce the skin effect (such as Litz construction) will help, but due more to the reduction of inductance than the reduction of the skin effect. Inductive reactance is more significant in large cables than the skin effect. If an amplifier does not disagree, larger capacitance in a cable is not significant since this component is comparatively small and reduces amplifier and cable inductive reactance effects.

The best performance was measured with the multi-conductor cables Spectra-Strip 138-064, Kimber 16LPC, and AudioQuest Litz. Smaller multi-conductor cables such as Kimber 8LPC, Kimber 4PR, and Spectra-Strip 191-036 also performed well.

Of the two-wire cables, 12 AWG provided the best Interface, with reactive loads, while both smaller and larger gauges (3-7 AWG and 18 AWG) showed greater high-frequency drop and interaction with capacitive reactance in a load. 12 AWG seems more than adequate, even for demanding systems, high power levels, and reasonable lengths.

The effects of 3.1-m cables are subtle, so many situations may not warrant the use of special cables. Low-inductance cables will provide the best performance when driving reactive loads, especially with amplifiers having low damping factor, and when flat response is critical, when long cable lengths are required, or when perfection is sought. Though not as linear as flat cables, 12 AWG wire works well and exceeds the high-frequency performance of other two-conductor cables tested. By the way, keep the auto jumper cables in the garage!​

All this is well and good. But it avoids the larger question. Do any of these measurably different electrical parameters lead to differences that listeners can actually hear?
Audibility is the larger question? Well the article suggests that multi insulated conductor cables and 12 AWG seem to measure best so an 18/4 cable per pole might be the holy grail but I'm going 18/3 per pole. At this point I just want it to look kinda nice. I'm sure that the sound coming from the Dayton BR1's isn't going to blossom or wither.

So after all this searching and what not this is my favorite find ... :D

Maybe you can't hear a difference, but it is just ignorant to say that cables don't make a difference and that its a fact that no one can distinguish the sound. I've used cables cheap and expensive and its honestly not possible to predict how it will sound with your setup because there is a difference in sound. You just have to put it in your system and listen. For example.. About a month ago someone switched the cables at the office where I work. AFter about 20 minutes in the morning I had a splitting headache from listening fatigue.. It took me a couple of days to figure out that someone had switched cables.
EDIT: I need a link to a binding post that the BJC spade fits.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I've used needle nose pliers to bent them just enough to fit.
Just look at this sh!t ... :eek:



Good thing I had extras ... :rolleyes: :D

Just a thought.
I went looking for a clip from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid where Redford gets to say "Keep thinking Butch, you're good at it." :p
 
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Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Did Rick just tell you to get bent, Alex?:D
oops, meant to say bend.:D

Just look at this sh!t ... :eek:



Good thing I had extras ... :rolleyes: :D



I went looking for a clip from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid where Redford gets to say "Keep thinking Butch, you're good at it." :p

Wow,:eek: how much bigger do you need them opened?
Mine just need a subtle tweak.
 
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Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Mine just need a subtle tweak.
I'm a drywaller. That was subtle.

TLS is right. That Taiwan crap is ruining this country.

These spades are way smaller than modern binding posts. Even though they are BJC they're just imports with that crappy brittle metal but I still like the way they look. Honestly I think these spades were meant to be used with a heavier gauge. I was able to pull the wire out of the connector by hand. I might solder them to the wire or I might still get a heavier gauge. All non issues at the moment because I'm getting tired of playing with them. I'm just not that deeply invested in the wire but the connectors I am a little in love with. I don't want bananas that stick out of the wall. I like the way these lay flat.
 

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