My Negative Experience with Grant Fidelity

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W

wwb6001

Audiophyte
I won’t embellish or exaggerate on my experience with Grant Fidelity and their product. I will just post what I said to them and their response. The following is exactly what I sent to them and their reply. I leave it to the reader to judge if this is an organization you want to do business with. First is my email to them and then their reply follows.
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Hi,
Yes, my PayPal is linked to both my checking account and credit cards. The message I got from PayPal was credit card payment was not allowed for this transaction. Either way it is disappointing that you would hold up shipping based on some silly PayPal transfer thing. Is it really your experience that purchasers of high end audio equipment are the type to submit bogus PayPal payments? Just a rhetorical question, I do not expect an answer.

Anyway. I am going to be posting my review to several audio forums including Audio Karma, Stereophile, Audioholics, etc. It is my right as a consumer and an American citizen to share my experience publicly. I have a complete and total absence of malice towards you individually or your organization. This is just the facts of my involvement with you and the performance of the product purchased. Below is what I am going to post. Also, I am appalled by the heinous fees, deductions, penalties, etc that I am going to be subjected to in order to return this defective product. If nothing changes I will be disputing this purchase with my credit card company, notifying the Better Business Bureau, and advising the the US Customs department of your import process.
_______________________________________________________________
Subject/Title: Grant Fidelity Shuguang I-25 Amp – Buyer Beware!

Let me begin by saying I am a long time lover of music and stereos. As a teenager when I started earning money with my paper route job the first thing I bought was a stereo.
I just purchased a Grant Fidelity Shuguang I-25 Amplifier. I have been experimenting with the amp for the past two weeks. I am not new to the audio scene and have a variety of modern and vintage gear including cd players, turntables, amplifiers, and speakers. There were not many reviews available for this product when I purchased it but I was encouraged by their advertisement that they offered “High end, not high priced” equipment. My review of this product and the customer service of Grant Fidelity is not positive.
1st, the amp. It sounds bad. I know the audiophiles out there will want me to clarify this appraisal with the usual “soundstage, imaging, presence, etc” type of critical analysis but it really does not apply in this case. Bad is bad. If I had to make a specific comment I would say it is like someone took a graphic equalizer and just randomly boosted and cut frequencies. Of particular concern is what the amp does to the vocals. Hollow, reserved, pulled back, weak, shrill, you get the picture.
2nd, the customer service. I very promptly let Rachel and Ian know that I was not satisfied with the amp. I told them that in my opinion the amp may be defective. In response I was told I could return the amp and was sent the link to their return policy. Here is what I am facing.

Restocking fee: $78.50
Credit card fee: $27.48
Insurance fee: $7.85
Original shipping fee: Probably around $40
Return shipping fee: Probably around $40

So, I was delivered a “Made in China” defective or poorly designed product and for the privilege of enduring (not enjoying) this unit for two weeks I will be out $200. $200 dollars! I have purchased and own used amps that perform better than the I-25 for less than that. Oh, and the original declared amount for customs is listed as $75. Is that even legal? Do you think they will let me insure it for $75 when I ship it to Canada?

In conclusion I would advise everyone to think twice before purchasing the Shuguang I-25 Amplifier from Grant Fidelity. My experience with the product, the customer service, and the crippling return policy/fees will definitely prevent me from purchasing anything from from their organization again.

Sincerely,
William
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This is the reply from Grant Fidelity

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From: Grant Fidelity
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 5:58 PM
To: William Bost
Subject: Re: More details on your shipment (Order #: 2011000253)

You have every right to post what you want in public, and we will respond everything we know about this transaction in public too:

1) you ordered the amp online April 3rd without asking us any questions about the amp or matching to your speakers. Your amp was delivered on April 12th. Where is the two weeks of you enduring the amp according to your email? It's April 20th today - cannot you count it's only 8 days??? As far as we know from the phone call from you on April 13th, you have brand new speakers with zero time when you receive the amp and put the two together to play. This is a tube amp which needs 150-300 hours to break-in, your speakers likely at least 100 hours. You complained the sound first day you got the amp. Go figure why. If you call this 'not new to audio', I must say you are extremely unreasonable.

2) No merchant in their right mind will ship an internet order without receiving payment. Paypal strongly advises against it. You get Paypal notification that credit card is not allowed for this transaction could only have two reasons: one, because either your type of credit card cannot be processed, two, your credit card doesn't have enough credit left for the purchase. It's up to you make payment to the seller then expect delivery. If you wish us to bend the rules for you to ship your order without full payment, unfortunately my answer is No, and my answer will be No to everyone. We are not a bank and we don't extend credit to customers. Until payment is received in full, we do not ship any orders. We don't judge people's credibility by what products they order - no matter it is high end or $5.00.

3) If you don't agree with our return policy for your purchase, please don't buy from us in the first place. But please do not tell me after a few days 'I am not a tube guy' when you just bought a tube amp. You can go complain anywhere and I bet you will get the same answer that vendor isn't responsible for your purchase decision. No one has talked you into buying - it's your own decision to buy and live with the return policy if you didn't read it.

4) It's apparent that you made an impulsive purchase then remorse on it. You do not have the patience to wait for a tube amp to break in to judge how it will sound - plus your speakers are brand new - what do you expect? Did we say maybe there is a possibility that your speakers are not good enough to show the amp at all???

5) You enjoyed the fast free shipping to your door at the time of purchase, but when you changed your mind, you started to complain about shipping isn't free anymore. Our return policy is all listed on our website - why aren't you reading it before you buy? No vendors will cover the expenses you have incurred because of your impulsive purchase and no patience. If you buy from box store and they allow you return with no fees, then go buy at box store as we are not one of them.

5) Any forum members or someone with clear mind will see through your behavior pattern. Please complain to wherever you want - we will respond in public to every of your post and make sure all merchants understand what kind of customer you really are from the sequence of events. It will be called Seller Beaware and I bet much fewer people will actually do business with you based on our experience with you.

6) We don't take any internet blackmail - we will respond to every of them with facts and let readers to judge. I have seen a few threats like yours but it won't change our mind to bow to your blackmail. If you would like to bring it to public, we will do it all the way with you. Check the forums - we have done a few.

7) However the Chinese shipper to declare the value on the parcel is not in our control. We contract people there to ship and they deliver the parcel. If you would like, I can certainly provide your name and address to US customs and let's see if you have enjoyed some low value import from other countries before. Sound fair enough? Seems you weren't complaining about not receiving a duty bill at the time of delivery.

8) In conclusion, I will strongly recommend all audio vendors not to do business with you in the forums. No need to think twice - it's clear enough from our experience - no one needs a customer like if this is how you behave.

Regards,
Grant Fidelity
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I pretty much have to agree with Grant Fidelity's position.

I think they have every right to hold shipment until you card or Pay Pal clears.

You bought a Chinese Shagbang amp, with minimal specification and no third party measurements. However THD is stated as 1% so the 25 watt per channel rating is on the optimistic side. They do not even state that 1%THD is even at full rated power.

You don't state what your speakers are, but a lot of speakers are totally unsuitable to be driven from tube amps.

Their return policy is clear and they followed it.

The only disagreement I have is about break in of speakers and the amp. That is largely audiophool BS. There is a small change in driver compliance which can minimally affect bass tuning for a period of time. I seriously doubt the effect is audible.

Bottom line: - you fell to the temptations of audiophool flesh pots and paid the price. Now get over it.
 
G

Grant Fidelity

Audiophyte
This is not our practice of first post to a forum, but in response to the OP directly related to our business - here it is:

I will give everyone who reads this thread a run down of the events - you can make your own judgement about Grant Fidelity customer service after knowing the whole picture:

April 3rd - 21:59 - William placed order for I-25 without any previous communication with Grant Fidelity.

April 4th - 11:01 - William emailed Grant Fidelity saying 'Hi!
As you know I just ordered a Shuguang I-25 amp. Thank you for the very prompt order confirmation emails and shipping info! I just have a few quick questions since this is my first purchase and I admit I am pretty excited about my first tube stereo amp.
1. Looks like this is coming straight from China? In your experience how long (approximately) does shipping take?
2. I was checking your site and noticed there were different “ratings” for the 6CA7-Z/EL34 Treasure Tubes included with this amp. Which ones come with the I-25?
3. I also see I earned 785 “points” for this order. What can a person do with those points?
Thanks!
William'

April 4th evening - Grant Fidelity instructed Hong Kong warehouse to ship out William's order. (We were at Montreal audio show)

April 5th - Grant Fidelity replied all William's questions by email (we were at Montreal audio show)

April 6th - 11am: William emailed questions about our DAC09

April 7th - Grant Fidelity replied William's questions about the DAC09

April 8th 11am - William asked further questions about DAC09

April 9th - Grant Fidelity replied William's question about DAC09

April 13th 12pm - William emailed -
Hi Rachel and Ian,
The I-25 arrived yesterday just before I needed to leave for work. (Grrrr.) Very quick shipping considering it came from the other side of the planet! Very well packaged. I took a tissue and made sure the tubes were seated properly and they were thanks to the excellent packaging. I have been listening to the amp this morning and it seems like I am experiencing something similar to the other posts. Right now the amp sounds very “constricted”. I have done live sound, owned a variety of equipment over the years, and also repair and resell used gear so I have had a chance to listen to a lot of different amp and speaker combinations. I would compare the current sound to a situation where someone took a parametric eq and dialed down one specific band right in the vocal range and boosted another. Am I right that as the tubes break in this will resolve itself? Other freqs are pretty good. An amazing amount of bass for a 25 watt amp. Not much “tinkle” in the high end yet. A couple of questions. In order to help break-in the amp can I just leave it on or do I have to run a signal through it? My music room is right next door to the bedroom and my wife will not let me run the stereo all night. And then I see some very positive impressions with the Pavane tubes. I assume they make the preamp tubes for this amp? Do you think it would make any difference? Oh, and the Audio Karma posts by you guys and “Pen Name” have been very helpful and once everything is broke in and dialed I will be posting my own review.
Thanks for the great service and I will keep you updated on how things progress!
Wm

April 13th - same day: Grant Fidelity advised William that tube amp needs break in and the Treasure tubes need 150 hours break-in

April 13th 6pm: William replies ' Hi Rachel and Ian,
Actually took the day off work to listen to the the I-25 while I rearranged my music room for the best possible sound field. Played a variety of my favorite music while puttering around. The amp has been on all day while I worked. At this point my impression is not that this is a good start and am looking forward to the tubes breaking in and really getting musical. Right now it just sounds bad. The vocals are just wrong. They are are so subdued and hollow I can barely hear some of them them over the rest of the mix. I have a Yamaha CR-2020, Harmon Kardon 730 and a Sansui QR-6500. They all sound better than the I-25 and by a wide margin. Because I buy, repair, and sell used audio gear I fully understand what it is like when a buyer is just not satisfied with a piece of gear that I have personally listened to for days and know it is a good piece. I assure you I am not one of those. I just want to keep the line of communication open and let you know step by step how things are going. From everything I have read you have a true love for audio and provide people with great sound at a great price. From your email I see it may take 150 hours to fully realize the potential of this amp. Because I have a day job in addition to my audio side business and other responsibilities I am lucky if I can listen to my music for one to two hours a day. That means it could be three months before I can expect to really enjoy my music? I just can’t do that. What do you think? Did I get a bad unit or something? Any insights would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
William

April 13th - same day: Ian advised William that if after 30 days audition he doesn't like the amp, he can return it as per our return policy. Ian offered to speak with William on the phone to see if there is any troubleshooting to be done.

April 14th 11am: William replied with his phone number and 'Hi Ian,
Thanks for getting back to me. My phone number is XXX-XXX-XXX . Fired the unit up this morning and it sounds better today. I think I had some ear fatigue from spending pretty much the whole day in the music room while I rearranged furniture. I put some Alan Parsons on this morning and plunked my butt down in the sweet spot of the listening triangle and just relaxed. I swear I heard some very cool, very subtle nuances going on in the background that I never heard before in all the times I have listened to the cd. There is still some “stress” in the vocals but not as bad as yesterday. I am optimistic!
If you don’t mind I would like to take advantage of your audio experience and familiarity with tube equipment with a few questions.
The speakers I am using are the Martin Logan Motion 4 bookshelf. Sensitivity 90 db, frequency response 70-25kHz. They are also brand new and are breaking in as well. (Hmm...) Any opinions on the speakers? What would you recommend for a starting speaker position? To get the volume where I like it the knob on the I-25 is pointing at two o’clock. With a standard line level input does that seem ok?
Also, I notice when I power the unit up one of the preamp tubes “flares” a lot more than the other three. In your experience with tube amps does this signify anything?
Once again I want to thank you for your great customer service, technical assistance and patience!
Wm

April 14th noon time: Ian spent at least 45 minutes on the phone with William to see if anything wrong with the amp. No problem identified. When William mentioned he was using brand new speakers, Ian strongly suggested that he run the amp with speakers he is familiar with and run the speakers with an amp he is familiar with. William placed a new order for DAC09 with modification - Grant Fidelity sent a Paypal invoice for him to make payment. William made payment with an e-check. Paypal advise payment will be cleared in about 5 days and advise not to ship the order until payment is cleared.

April 14th - William sent an update 'Quick update. Seems like the Alan Parson cd was mixed a little weak requiring a little volume boost. Most cds only require about 12 o’clock more or less on the volume knob. Oh, and my room is 11’ by 15’ with a hardwood floor.
Wm

April 19th 2:30pm - William sent email to ask 'Hi! Ordered the dac09 same day I spoke with you and was wondering when I could expect delivery? Am anxious to hear how it changes the sound of the CD player and helps drive the amp!
Wm

April 19th 2:32pm: Grant Fidelity advised that payment has just been cleared by Paypal on 19th. DAC09 order will be shipped on 20th.

April 19th 2:45pm - William replied 'Hasn't shipped because of "check clearing "? Your PayPal link gave me no other option. Very frustrating considering the experience I have had so far with the amp. Please cancel the order for the dac09 and let me know how to return the I -25. I know from everything I have read you operate a wonderful business and provide great value to your customers. I guess I am just not a tube guy.
Sincerely,
William

April 19th 3pm: Grant Fidelity explained why paypal payment takes time to clear when paid through bank account and we cannot ship order without payment cleared. Also provided William our return policy link for him to return the amp.

April 20th 3pm - William replied with the email he posted at the beginning of the thread.

I will leave readers to see William's behavior pattern and impatience on breaking-in both new speakers and new amp at the same time, and make your own judgement if Grant Fidelity's customer service is anywhere short of quality.

Again, Grant Fidelity pride ourselves for service and provide quality products. I-25 amp sound quality can be confirmed by another buyer 'Pen Name' feedback on this forum. You can read his experience about the amp's break-in and changes.

Grant Fidelity do not bend to internet publicity blackmail. This is our principle and will not be compromised.

Grant Fidelity will not further respond to this thread as we have many nice customers to service. Buyer beware and you can make your own choice of buying from Grant Fidelity or not.

Whether the I-25 amp is Made-in-China or not has nothing to do with what William has experienced. William's comments on defective low quality of this amp has no proof by what he has communicated to us so far. China offers great value high quality audio - Read my blog on our website about Chi-Fi before you buy any.

William Bost

Seller Beware !

Rachel @ Grant Fidelity
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
I pretty much have to agree with Grant Fidelity's position.

I think they have every right to hold shipment until you card or Pay Pal clears.

You bought a Chinese Shagbang amp, with minimal specification and no third party measurements. However THD is stated as 1% so the 25 watt per channel rating is on the optimistic side. They do not even state that 1%THD is even at full rated power.

You don't state what your speakers are, but a lot of speakers are totally unsuitable to be driven from tube amps.

Their return policy is clear and they followed it.

The only disagreement I have is about break in of speakers and the amp. That is largely audiophool BS. There is a small change in driver compliance which can minimally affect bass tuning for a period of time. I seriously doubt the effect is audible.

Bottom line: - you fell to the temptations of audiophool flesh pots and paid the price. Now get over it.
The response could have been a whole lot more professional however.
 
G

Grant Fidelity

Audiophyte
btw, this person is flooding all the audio forums with the same post. Mods, feel free to delete it, there is an ongoing discusiion in our forum on AK.

Cheers,
Ian
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
+1.. They're making it personal. Cross this vendor off my list.
They're not necessarily making it personal. People write and post comments all the time before they edit the text and in some cases, it's an immediate reaction to something they didn't like. The OP made it much more personal and, IMO, unreasonable. The policies are posted, he wanted it shipped before the seller received payment (a ridiculous position to take) and apparently didn't read much about the amp before buying it. As far as the bright sound, I have read that the OEM tubes tend to be brighter than some others but again, it's going to depend on a lot of factors, including bias setting.

Jumping on a PO'd customer's bandwagon without being present for the initial conversations and the actual transaction, without a shred of objectivity, isn't good for anyone and could damage the company's future. I'm not a shill for them but I am looking at this from a neutral position.

I don't see much in the OP's message that would make me want to sell to him- what he posted about what he expected and got being two different things makes me think he didn't follow the advice "Look before you leap".
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
+1.. They're making it personal. Cross this vendor off my list.
Matt, 3db.

They are not making it personal. The original poster is a frakking moron. He started this and G.F. is allowed to follow up in a reciprocal manner.

The O.P. real problem is he is going to go over the line into libel. I wouldn't be surprised if G.F had him in front of a judge. The O.P's actions IMO constitute a direct harm to their business.

No the customer is often not right.
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
The response could have been a whole lot more professional however.
I have to agree. This is where it crosses the line.

5) Any forum members or someone with clear mind will see through your behavior pattern. Please complain to wherever you want - we will respond in public to every of your post and make sure all merchants understand what kind of customer you really are from the sequence of events. It will be called Seller Beaware and I bet much fewer people will actually do business with you based on our experience with you.

6) We don't take any internet blackmail - we will respond to every of them with facts and let readers to judge. I have seen a few threats like yours but it won't change our mind to bow to your blackmail. If you would like to bring it to public, we will do it all the way with you. Check the forums - we have done a few.

7) However the Chinese shipper to declare the value on the parcel is not in our control. We contract people there to ship and they deliver the parcel. If you would like, I can certainly provide your name and address to US customs and let's see if you have enjoyed some low value import from other countries before. Sound fair enough? Seems you weren't complaining about not receiving a duty bill at the time of delivery.

8) In conclusion, I will strongly recommend all audio vendors not to do business with you in the forums. No need to think twice - it's clear enough from our experience - no one needs a customer like if this is how you behave.

Regards,
Grant Fidelity
I guess it is just another reason to avoid sites that sell spurious products from the far East, tube DACs and funny wire.

These sites never have objective data to back their products up.

Quite honestly, I just don't know where peoples common sense is. I would expect products like the OP was purchasing to be nothing but trouble.
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
Matt, 3db.

They are not making it personal. The original poster is a frakking moron. He started this and G.F. is allowed to follow up in a reciprocal manner.

The O.P. real problem is he is going to go over the line into libel. I wouldn't be surprised if G.F had him in front of a judge. The O.P's actions IMO constitute a direct harm to their business.

No the customer is often not right.
Never said they shouldn't or couldn't respond, just that it could have been much more professional. Too wrongs don't make a right.
 
W

wwb6001

Audiophyte
I apologize to this forum for the totally unneeded drama I have involved you
in. The point I have been trying to make is that I believe the unit I have
is defective, either by design or a flaw. It just doesn't sound right at any
volume setting or speaker combination. I was given no other recourse but to
return it and face the fees. If anyone is in the Eastern Washington region
by all means stop by and listen to it and form your own opinion. Also, I
completely understand and would not protest if the administrators wish to
delete the entire thread. I don't blame you.
Once again my apologies.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Every time I see tube amps, I roll my eyes like this :rolleyes:.

I was in Dallas over the weekend. My brother Tommy was telling me about our first cousin Ben who owns a liquor store and cigarette store.:D

The last time I spoke to my cousin Ben was 10 yrs ago, and he didn't even own a house; he was living with his parents :eek:(my mother's older brother).

Tommy tells me Ben now lives in a $600,000 house and owns some speakers that cost $200,000/pr and some giant tube amps.:eek:

Of course, I asked Tommy what was the brand of these speakers and tube amps. And of course, Tommy was clueless.

Why is it that my brother (who couldn't care less about audio) is surrounded by all these people who own Salon2s, Orions, and $200,000/pr speakers?:eek:

I will have to check out Ben's tube amps very soon.:D

$200,000 Speakers too, but tube amps are the main things, right?:rolleyes:
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
What? Not going the way you wanted?:D

It's not like many Audioholics are going to buy any Chinese tube amps anyway.:rolleyes:
No, and that's one of the nice things about this site. Most members have a lot more sense than to do that!

In my view this thread should stay as general warning about the whole issue of dabbling in the Audiophools waters.

I bet there are more people burned than want to admit it!

I hate to see the OP burned, but on the other hand I won't deny some sense of satisfaction at seeing this case study.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I apologize to this forum for the totally unneeded drama I have involved you
in. The point I have been trying to make is that I believe the unit I have
is defective, either by design or a flaw. It just doesn't sound right at any
volume setting or speaker combination. I was given no other recourse but to
return it and face the fees. If anyone is in the Eastern Washington region
by all means stop by and listen to it and form your own opinion. Also, I
completely understand and would not protest if the administrators wish to
delete the entire thread. I don't blame you.
Once again my apologies.
This should have been your first post. There is no replacement for succinct, well ordered, well mannered posting.

Bottom line is that GF should be willing to take the return and work with you on the defective aspect. Since they are across the border however there is duties and customs. That is a business I wouldn't want to be in: Dealing with a bulk of sales that happens to originate in another country.

Thread is closed.
 
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