My first auditons: Klipsch RF 62, Polk RTI10,Martin Logan Vista,Energy RC 70

[mibson]

First off, future shop is not too bad of a place to audition speakers; I liked how you could hear the different speakers on the exact same setup, but I didn’t like how their “higher” end speakers are mostly online and not available to audition. Plus their theatre room had crap all over the walls to make the room look nice, but the room was definitely not sound treated properly.

I called the only store in town that sells high end PSBs, they said “they couldn’t take me today”. I guess I have to understand that they are busy.

I have also decided that I don’t feel right about auditioning speakers that I know Im going to buy online.

Anyway, here are my reviews. Keep in mind I am very sensitive to “harsh” treble.

Equipment used: Yamaha amp 7.1 (msrp $2000, don’t know model) Not sure what cd player was being used.

Klipsch RF 62:

Good speakers for the money. When listening to Tool disposition from the album Lateralus: great bass response, harsh treble, and very lacking midrange. Message In a Bottle by the Police showed how harsh treble can really be.

Polk RTI10:

Good speakers for the money again however serious flaws to my ears. When listening to Tool disposition from the album Lateralus: poor bass, and mildly harsh treble, the midrage was tight and made the tabla sound great. Message In a Bottle by the Police made it evident how the treble was a bit to harsh for me. My old PSBs sound better...(dont know model $800 price 20 years ago)

Martin Logan Vista (not sure model MSRP $2500 EACH cad):

Great sound, very high end sharpness, great tight accurate bass. I think these are great speakers for home theater or perhaps classical music, but are way to harsh in the high end for my musical tastes and ears. Somehow these speakers make higher midrange harsh, that is a serious problem for me. The tabla in disposition sounded amazing though, but the treble is something I just can get over…

Energy RC 70:

Great sound overall. My favorite speakers of these four. Treble was mild but clear, midrange was superb, bass was good but slightly lacking. I would get these speakers if I was not concerned that they are not enough for my relatively large room. Tabla sounded real besides lacking a bit of the natural high end ping, but I find that sound harsh anyway. Tool the Grudge sounded great, lots of everything except low end bass and lacking the volume I wanted (I know this could be the amp used). The key to these speakers is the midrage, it is the best Ive heard on speakers under $2000.

This is not an audiophile review, obviously, just a review for all you hard rock lovers, that like me, cant deal with harsh treble. Certainly I know, that my musical tastes do contribute to my dislike of harsh treble since most of the music I listen to has unbearable highs at times; this is all part of the tension raising effect of harsh sounds before the moderate, repose inducing, more predictable tones that follow. Also, I know that my reviews are not "fair" in that price points were all over the place, but I didnt like the most expensive speakers and that is the point....

My brothers Sonus Faber Cremora M, are my favorite Ive heard but I just cant afford these speakers.

Ive upped my limit to $3000 for two speakers...

Can someone suggest a brand or speaker model that will sound like the Energy RC 70s but a larger version with more displacment?

Thanks for your time and input!

How about having 4 RC 70s, perhaps then I get the sound and volume Im looking for? Is this crazy? Im sure there is some reason why it is a bad idea because i have not heard of anyone doing this....

Note room size 21x35 feet, cathedraled to 12 feet high...

 

[Matt34]

Are you going to be using a sub with whatever you go with?

Big displacement for a large room is going to require a big efficient speaker.

http://www.jtrspeakers.com/triple8ht.html

A review:
http://www.jtrspeakers.com/12lf_review.html

Available veneers:

Oak
Ash
Walnut
Cherry
Mahogany
Birch
Maple

 

[mibson]

Sub?

Im not sure, Im still deciding. Ive never heard a sub sound "tight", so Im still trying to figure this out. I know the set-up and room have alot to do with the problems I found with subs...

I would prefer just two towers, and no subs...

 

[anamorphic96]

Have you heard a sub that is properly eq'd. That is the question. Most subs sound poor until they have been eq'd. This is where subs tighten up and you hear the real potential of owning subs.

 

[mibson]

Sub or on sub

Have you heard a sub that is properly eq'd. That is the question. Most subs sound poor until they have been eq'd. This is where subs tighten up and you hear the real potential of owning subs.

I probably have not heard a sub properly eq'd. Still researching that. I was hoping to get full range speakers that didnt need a sub...

 

[mibson]

Are you going to be using a sub with whatever you go with?

Big displacement for a large room is going to require a big efficient speaker.

http://www.jtrspeakers.com/triple8ht.html

A review:
http://www.jtrspeakers.com/12lf_review.html

Available veneers:

Oak
Ash
Walnut
Cherry
Mahogany
Birch
Maple

I like the obvious power handling capacity of these, Im concerned that they appear to be more like PA speakers that HiFi home speakers...

 

[Swerd]

Because you keep bringing up your concern that speakers might not be loud enough in your large listening room, maybe a few comments on speaker sensitivity are worthwhile.

Speaker makers usually list the sensitivity of their models with a number, such as 88 dB. That means that pink noise played at 2.83 volts (1 watt if the speaker impedance is 8 ohms, 2 watts for 4 ohms), measured with a test microphone 1 meter away registers at a sound pressure level (SPL) of 88 dB.

Some rough rules for SPL measured in dB units:
Doubling the amplifier power raises SPL by 3 dB (~1 dB is noticeable by most people)
Increasing SPL by 6 dB sounds about twice as loud to human ears.

Those Energy RC 70s you liked have a sensitivity of 92 dB. Compared to most speakers with typical sensitivities of 86-89 dB, they are very sensitive. They should play very loud.

Please remember that overall sensitivity and sound quality are unrelated.

Please also remember that not all speaker makers report sensitivity values (or other specifications) honestly.

 

[mibson]

Speaker Sensitivity

Thanks Swerd,

perhaps I misunderstand something. I assumed the Energy RC 70S would not be loud enough for me because of two main observations:

1) they are not very big (I know size is not everything..)

2) At moderate volume during auditioning them, the drivers were moving ALLOT, so much that I couldn’t imagine them being much louder without damaging the drivers...

Can someone explain if Im totally wrong with these assumptions (especially assumption #2)

 

[Matt34]

I like the obvious power handling capacity of these, Im concerned that they appear to be more like PA speakers that HiFi home speakers...

Well, that's because they are, but I wouldn't be quick to discard them as they have been know to replace "HiFi" speakers in more than one well-known HT.

 

[Swerd]

Until you know for certain that Energy exaggerates their specs, I'd pay attention to 92 dB sensitivity and ignore cabinet size and apparent driver motion.

Look up those other speakers you heard. How do their sensitivities compare?

 

[mibson]

sensitivity

Thanks again Swerd,

The Energy speakers say 95db sensitivity online where Im looking...

All the other speakers are less sensitive except the Klipsch (97db)....

What I dont understand is how a small speaker can move lots of air? I thought there was a limitation regarding the size of the drivers and total volume of air moved....

Sensitivity, seems to me, would only matter if you were limited by your amps power....(I have not decided on an amp yet, but I,m going to make sure Im not short on power)

 

[Swerd]

The Energy speakers say 95db sensitivity online where Im looking...

I saw two numbers under RC 70 specs: 92 dB anechoic and 95 dB in room. "Anechoic" means in a room where there is zero reflected sound. "In room" means the extra sound you would expect from bass reinforcement due to reflections from walls, ceiling and floors.

All the other speakers are less sensitive except the Klipsch (97db)....

What I dont understand is how a small speaker can move lots of air? I thought there was a limitation regarding the size of the drivers and total volume of air moved....

Sensitivity, seems to me, would only matter if you were limited by your amps power....

Although Klipsch speakers are known to be sensitive, many people have doubted those numbers they report.

Two things affect how much air a speaker moves: Cone diameter and how far the cone and voice coil can travel back and forth (known as Xmax). If small speakers have a large Xmax, they can move more air than a similar sized speaker with a smaller Xmax. Remember, those RC 70s have two 7" woofers. Two woofers move twice as much air as one.

When woofers appear to be moving back and forth in a big way, it is both a function of their Xmax and such things as the woofer's inherent resonance frequency and cabinet bass tuning. These things vary a lot among different makes, so you shouldn't make any broad conclusions from it.

 

[bandphan]

Thanks again Swerd,

The Energy speakers say 95db sensitivity online where Im looking...

All the other speakers are less sensitive except the Klipsch (97db)....

What I dont understand is how a small speaker can move lots of air? I thought there was a limitation regarding the size of the drivers and total volume of air moved....

Sensitivity, seems to me, would only matter if you were limited by your amps power....(I have not decided on an amp yet, but I,m going to make sure Im not short on power)

Loud and low are two different things. If you go by driver size, The salks would appear to be limited in low output, however they are not. The JTR speakers Matt posted, and speakers from Seaton Sound are good choices to consider also.

 

[PENG]

Until you know for certain that Energy exaggerates their specs, I'd pay attention to 92 dB sensitivity and ignore cabinet size and apparent driver motion.

Look up those other speakers you heard. How do their sensitivities compare?

I ABC those speakers a few times and I did find the Klipsch and RTIA sound much louder, especially the Klipsch. The RC70 also had weaker bass than the other two but Future Shop typically powered them with something like a RX-V1900. The RC70 may also tend to sound not as loud because they have lower distortions and are easier on the ears than the other two.

 

[3db]

P-Eng makes great point. If the speakers are free of distortion, you don't notice how loud it really gets until you try to hold a conversation with someone and can't. Thats awesome. Speakers that seem to be loud without even trying to talk to another in the room is a sign of distortion. That is a bad thing.

The Energys based on what you heard would appear to be the better speaker for you.

One thing you really need to do is level match between speakers..i.e. make sure th eoutput of speaker A is as loud as speaker B. The louder playing speaker will always sound better..its human mind thing. Thats why level mathcing is so critical. If you have a radio shack SPL meter, take it with you and use it while auditioning speakers.

$3000..Listen to the PSB Synchronys if you can. Nothing but outstanding reviews from all the reviews do-ne on them. They are a little more diffiicult to drive and require an amp with good 4 ohm drive capability.

 

[mibson]

PSB Speakers

Yes, I like PSB and the Sychrony one have AMAZING reviews. However I cant find a good deal on them. The best so far on new ones is $3600 delivered to my door. I found the PSB Platinum T6 for $3000 delivered to my door.

If I can find Sychrony ones for a good deal Ill get them.

Right now Im thinking :

Axiom m80 (trial at home is a good thing)
Energy RC70 (liked their sound)
PSB Synchrony or Platinum T6 (maxing my budget out...)

Can someone direct me to a good deal on the PSB Sychrony one?
I live in Canada...

 

[3db]

Yes, I like PSB and the Sychrony one have AMAZING reviews. However I cant find a good deal on them. The best so far on new ones is $3600 delivered to my door. I found the PSB Platinum T6 for $3000 delivered to my door.

If I can find Sychrony ones for a good deal Ill get them.

Right now Im thinking :

Axiom m80 (trial at home is a good thing)
Energy RC70 (liked their sound)
PSB Synchrony or Platinum T6 (maxing my budget out...)

Can someone direct me to a good deal on the PSB Sychrony one?
I live in Canada...

Go here; enter your postal code and teh distance your willing to travel and it will list all the PSB dealers.

http://www.psbspeakers.com/dealers/canada

 

[fredk]

Re: Axiom M80s.

I have seen you mention these several times now. I have not jumped in because of your comments on the high end. I happen to really like this speaker. It plays REALLY loud and clean if you want it to. Thing is, it gives you all the high end and some people interpret this as bright or even harsh.

If the speakers are free of distortion, you don't notice how loud it really gets until you try to hold a conversation with someone and can't.

My daughter keeps telling me to turn it down when she is over. I have no trouble listening at levels where you can't have a conversation.

As to harsh, I'm not familiar with the material you have mentioned, but there is a lot of music out there that is not very well recorded and a speaker like the M80 will reveal all the flaws in a recording. I have a more recent release of Jethro Tull's Thick As A Brick. The main part of the disc is not great, but OK, but there are 3 bonus tracks that are painful to listen to they are so poorly recorded. Talk about harsh.

Head over to the Axiom site and post in the Hearing Things forum to see if there is someone in your area (Edmonton?) that will give you an audition. I know there are a few in Calgary, but thats a bit of a drive.