My "adventures" with the Velodyne SMS-1 (experts needed -- help)

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My dad just picked up the 809s with the same center and surrounds .

Does Klipsch make Jamo or do they just own Jamo and don't interfere?

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

I thought the higher the level setting, the easier it is to see the peaks and dips in the response.

--Regards,

 

[avaserfi]

Does Klipsch make Jamo or do they just own Jamo and don't interfere?

They are two separate companies one just happens to own the other as far as I know. As far as I know Klipsch stays out of it which IMO is a very good thing.

I thought the higher the level setting, the easier it is to see the peaks and dips in the response.

--Regards,

So far in my experience it seems that if you set the volume too loud the frequency response just hits the top portion of the graph and levels out even if there are peaks, so I brought it down a bit. I think mid eighties is a good place for it though.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Would you say that 85 dB level would be close to ideal or should I lower that slightly ? I'm just going on your recommendation here.

Don't let me down.

--Regards,

 

[avaserfi]

Would you say that 85 dB level would be close to ideal or should I lower that slightly ? I'm just going on your recommendation here.

Don't let me down.

--Regards,

85 will work great . Don't worry, I am trying to help as much as I can! It doesn't look like you will have a big enough peak to worry about there.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

AcuDefTechGuy, yes, Klipsch owns Jamo but does not interfere in the R/D process at all. Also own Aragorn as far as I know. Klipsch does not interfere with the R&D of either of these firms.

I somehow don't think that Jamo will be offering horns in their lineup anytime soon.

--Regards,

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

avaserfi, thank you for your advice. Greatly appreciated !

--Regards,

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So far in my experience it seems that if you set the volume too loud the frequency response just hits the top portion of the graph and levels out even if there are peaks, so I brought it down a bit. I think mid eighties is a good place for it though.

I see some companies brag about getting +/-3 dB freq response @ 120dB. But most companies quote 80-90 dB. So it sounds like @ higher volume, you might not get an accurate frequency response? Like it might be +/- 10 dB and it just would not show up on the graph?

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Interesting. Those measurements + - 3 dB variation assume no reflections and assuming no output compression and linear to 120 dB's. That more often and not will never be the case. Frequency response nonlinearities will occur well before that depending on the limitations of the design.

--Regards,

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

I have another question. What is the contour frequency (in the SMS-1 menu) and contour level settings in the SMS-1 ? Preset's 1 and 4 have a specific contour setting but presets 5, 6 ,3 and 2 don't apparently.

What are they and how do they fit into the graph.

Thanks.

--Regards,

 

[mike c]

it's an extra EQ. works the same as the sliders except without Q control.

velodyne has researched the default frequencies set e.g. Movie mode ... and set a bump/peak in a particular frequency. (they have determined that a peak at that location is enjoyable by most people)

you can bypass it if you want.

 

[mike c]

these are my DD measurements, I don't know where I put my SMS-1 measurements

here's mine UN-EQ'd ... note the line of the <80hz (subwoofer range) is aligned with the >80hz (speaker range)

 

[mike c]

re: 100hz

your measurement has a dip at 100hz
if you want to correct it, using the sms-1 will not help much.

if you want it gone:
-boost the bass control (confirm on sms-1 if the valley disappears - mine did)
-raise or lower the bookshelf speakers (Curt C of Velodyne said a 100hz dip is caused by the woofer height)

yes, your bookshelves will take the brunt of the bass boost. but they have also been relieved of 80hz and below (because of your small and 80hz crossover setting). it's up to you. what size woofer does your bookshelf have? mine has 6.5" - and it has not affected SQ to my hearing.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Alright. I have some more updated graphs.

I had to position my subwoofer about half a meter out fromt eh corner. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury to place it where I would like.

This is my unequalized graph (I have maintained the same settings as before in the menu :

This is my equalized graph :

This graph is equalized except I closed the door directly behind me :

Then, what I did was I took my unequalized graph and calibrated so that my subwoofer was producing 73 to 74 dB's using pink noise on AVR. This gave me a level setting on the Velodyne as 37.

Due to input distortion that might be a problem with the SMS-1 (according to Home Theater Shack) I took my sub level and increased it to -10 (it's lowest setting).

This is the uneq'ed graph but calibrated flat in term of level :

http://uploadimages.com/view.php?type=thumb3&p=2007/0231/11899472102659.jpg

I think I may have increased the graph levels slightly (about 81-82 dB's more or less)

And finally, my eq'ed graph (preset 5) calibrated using pink noise on AVR. In order for me to reach 73-74 dB's, the SMS-1 volume level of 15 was perfect.

http://uploadimages.com/view.php?type=thumb3&p=2007/0231/11899472112134.jpg

Listening to music, I find that bass sounds a fuller than before and sounds great on some music but boomy on others (more so than it was before). It sounds full but then on some music it almost sounds overly boomy.

Movies suffer from the same problem as before. In the dojo sequence in the Matrix, Neo falls down hard on the mat. This has 20 hz material in it.

Unequalized, I can clearly perceive a greater depth to the low frequencies. Neo falls down hard several times within the sequence and there is deep bass there. In this mode, the hits had power and depth.

The equalized results were again, really disappointing. It's almost as if the results from the graphs do not reflect what I'm hearing/feeling. I increased bass across the range of frequencies. I should be getting increased perceived level of bass but it's the complete opposite. I get audibly less impact, or extension on the same scenes.

Why on earth would this be ?

I'm really not sure why this is but I might not be doing something right (which is definitely a possibility). I suspect that the subsonic limiter is kicking in more than it should on the SMS-1.

Thoughts, suggestions would be most welcome.

--Regards,

 

[mike c]

you should up the volume of the subwoofer/sms-1 to reach 80db rather than boosting all those frequencies to reach 80db.

and the rule of thumb is, it is better to cut than to boost.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The equalized results were again, really disappointing. It's almost as if the results from the graphs do not reflect what I'm hearing/feeling.

As they say in the healthcare field, treat the patient, not the LABS.

It reminds me when I used the automatic sound/room calibration/equalization on the Harman Kardon AVR-247 (before I sold it to my brother). This was supposed to fix the room acoustics and all that. The result was TERRIBLE. So I just turned OFF all equalization/tone controls and just did the speaker sound level matching. Then it sounded great----without all that fancy equalization.
Like they say, numbers are only part of the story. In the end, how it really SOUNDS is what you go with, not the numbers.
What good is a perfectly flat frequency response when it sounds disappointing?

 

[mike c]

by having a flat frequency response, a person can UP the volume of the subwoofer to match the other channels ...

if you balance the channels with a peak still there, you have only succeeded in balancing THAT peaked frequency with the other channels, rather than the whole response.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Mike,

you should up the volume of the subwoofer/sms-1 to reach 80db rather than boosting all those frequencies to reach 80db.

I used my AVR to reach the 80 dB. I just increased my master volume until I got the graph to read the 80 dB figure.

and the rule of thumb is, it is better to cut than to boost.

I understand that. And I think it is strange that I need to boost pretty much all my sliders to achieve the flattish response.

I guess I'm in a good position right now. I still haven't messed around with the SMS-1 polarity and phase. But this deep bass story is really bugging me now. I know that I should be experiencing more deep bass and not less.

Something is amiss.

by having a flat frequency response, a person can UP the volume of the subwoofer to match the other channels ...

I'm finding that I must decrease my subwoofer levels in order to match with the mains after I eq'ed my response. And my Radioshack meter has the needle dancing quite a bit even after the EQ.

Based on my results, there should be hardly any variation and yet there is. Also I just tried out Revenge of the Sith Chapter 2, when that massive star destroyer is in view.

When the destroyer pans through (which is also the loudest low bass in the entire film), the uneq'ed response gives more deep bass feel and the eq'ed response tames this.

Why ?

After Eq'ing, there levels have increased have they not ? Should I not be perceiving more bass and not less ? I really don't seem to understand what is happening right now.

Thanks.

--Regards,

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Can my response be improved ? By looking at my eq'ed graph, but can I do to make it better ? Have I reached the ideal flat response ?

Thoughts would be appreciated.

--Regards,

 

[mike c]

Vaughan, i think you are "Heinrich S" on AVS, correct? I'm "ribbit" over there ...

I think you're gonna need a phone call to Curt C to address your concerns. are you located in the US?

way back when, before I bought my DD subwoofer, I asked Curt about the SMS-1 ... I asked him questions like "will the sms-1 limit distortion on my sub?"

he said, I should not BUY the sms-1 til I understood what it can and cannot do. I'd say that's pretty good advice, it took me a full year before I got my sms-1 from that day. and I am completely satisfied ... at the moment ... until I get my 10hz tuned subwoofers. note, I also have an 18hz tuned subwoofer in the Axiom EP500. the roll-off DOES NOT affect the performance significantly.

where did you order the sms-1? don't they offer service? at first I did not understand the EQ process, but I kept playing around til I got the hang of it.

also, I did tell you to adjust phase and polarity before EQ'ing ... now if you adjust phase or polarity, your "flat" response MIGHT not be flat after adjustment.